If I am walking around I usually have my hand in my pocket holding my 442. Like in parking lots and most places. It’s just natural for me. If we go to a ATM, my wife uses the ATM and I keep head on swivel and watch for anyone approaching. We try to walk to stay somewhat fit. I find I just naturally like my hands in my pockets so I feel I should be able to handle a problem. Sounds good to me but, I’ve never had a problem.
Does the 642 still make sense?
- Thread starter Mr. Vito
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If I am walking around I usually have my hand in my pocket holding my 442. Like in parking lots and most places. It’s just natural for me. If we go to a ATM, my wife uses the ATM and I keep head on swivel and watch for anyone approaching. We try to walk to stay somewhat fit. I find I just naturally like my hands in my pockets so I feel I should be able to handle a problem. Sounds good to me but, I’ve never had a problem.
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One of my favorite expressions I use is, “no one has a problem until they do have a problem”. At that particular point nothing you do in the future will help you at the time of “the problem’. My all time favorite saying and the way I try to live my life is……. Previous Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance”. Hey I sincerely hope you never do have a problem and if you do I also hope 5 rounds are enough.
If a new Airline has operated 100% successfully for 10 years straight without a crash or serious mishap, does that mean they should not update their safety and floatation equipment? Unfortunately, it does seem to eventually happen. I sincerely hope no one here every has to pull their EDC in a SD situation - but the odds are not getting better, - only worse these days.
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It's often said that "more is better". I don't really buy into it. Excluding professionals and their line of work of course. It seems to me that people are placing their faith in higher capacity handguns these days without proper training... the constant narrative that the 5-6 revolver is no longer viable as primary carry, but still useful as a back-up. I disagree with it. Most, if not all civilians don't get into Miami Vice Style Shootouts, unless it involves a gang related shooting for the most part. Watching John Wick, Jason Bourne, Martin Riggs movies have somewhat distorted the reality of self-defense. Do we pretext the idea that we are victims if we don't have enough capacity of ammo to take out 50 bad guys at once? I can understand if they are rabid squirrels (lol), but people, absolutely no. I am not really preaching anything here other than my own unpopular view point. I feel quite safe with a 5 shot revolver, and a spare speed-strip as much as I did when I use to carry a Glock 17 back in the day with a spare mag. I rely on my own intuition, training and marksmanship skills. That is what makes me feel safe and I will stick to it.
The 3/3/3 thing sounds nicely alliterative. However, I've never seen any armed encounter where anyone was standing around with a stopwatch. I'm a decrepit old coot, but if I'm standing there with hands in my pockets (1 on a gun), 3 rounds-with center chest hits- @ 3 yards is under 1.25 seconds.
It's been some time since I spent 5 years digging through the FBI UCRs looking for homicide stats. Frankly, the FBI collects it's stats from the LLEAs that report their stats (no stats, no grant money). I've gotta strongly doubt that they bother collating private citizen shooting stats even if the LLEA bothered to collect them, especially in that detail. A quick skim of the stats readily available online didn't show anything. If you're really curious, you can find the entire UCR on line.
Back then, the UCRs did have a section on LLEA shootings. There was one very sobering section where they mentioned that at 25 yards LE won 90% of the gunfights, they broke even (50%) at 7 yards and lost 90% at 3 yards. Why? The bad person knew there was gonna be a shooting, the cop(s) didn't. At longer range, training won out.
There is a statistically significant civilian shooting data base. You'll find that, plus much more at rangemaster.com in the newsletter section. They show a 3 shot average on 1 aggressor incidents, average range is 5 yards, extremes are 2 and 27 yards.
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Ok so maybe just to be a little wise here.. when you stopped someone would you have let them quickly sweep their shirt/jacket/etc back while positioning themselves to draw? Probably not..
If you’re being completely reactionary, no holstered gun is going to get the jump on someone. Sure I might be slightly faster out of an OWB holster depending on what’s covering it, but like someone said already, if I feel a risk I can reach into my pocket and be holding my J or BG380 already - it’s much harder to discreetly pull that off with my 4006.
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Although I am walking with hand in pocket holding a J-Frame I failed to mention I also have a 9mm Shield in my waistband. I carry Two extra mags for it. So I may Rely on a J frame as my main gun I always have a back up. There was a time when I felt comfortable carrying 2 J frames. But as of the last 2 to 3 years I felt I should carry a little more.
How risky do you think your usual environment may be? Where I live I’d be fine with a J-frame, but I admit I don’t practice with one like I should, and the sights aren’t ideal for my older vision. Rockquarry is right, IMO. J-frames require constant practice. I’d be better off with a P365 for those two reasons. On the other hand, if I didn’t have/didn’t want/couldn’t afford another gun of that type, I’d still be ok with the Chief. I’d just try to practice more. If I lived in a more hazardous environment, I’d adjust accordingly.
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For many years I believed the fact that the average gunfight was over in under 3 rounds. Today's gunfights are a little different! Many times they are from multiple perp's with multiple guns. I no longer feel 5 is enough - without a reload.
There have also been a slew of mass shootings and most of the time the shooter is using some sort of high capacity, high rate of fire weapon. I would not like to get any closer than necessary and just might need more than 5 rounds without reloading. OK, these are worst case scenarios but not out of the realm of reality now days.
I did what I felt necessary and prudent and everyone here must do the same and feel comfortable with what they carry. No definitive right or wrong and only the aftermath would tell. Once again, I HOPE it never comes down to that, but we must be prepared.
There have also been a slew of mass shootings and most of the time the shooter is using some sort of high capacity, high rate of fire weapon. I would not like to get any closer than necessary and just might need more than 5 rounds without reloading. OK, these are worst case scenarios but not out of the realm of reality now days.
I did what I felt necessary and prudent and everyone here must do the same and feel comfortable with what they carry. No definitive right or wrong and only the aftermath would tell. Once again, I HOPE it never comes down to that, but we must be prepared.
Where I live in Ohio is relatively uneventful. As far as crime. The most I hear on the police radio is shoplifting at the Myers grocery store. When I’m out and about away from home, I’ll add a second Gun other than the J frame in my pocket. I would say 99% of the time I’m caring two firearms. But on occasion I’ll go with one depending what I’m doing where I’m going. As I mentioned in the winter I’m in Florida. things are a little more wild in the area where I stay so I’m always carrying two guns.
BKLooney
Member
I carry my 642 often, maybe not as much as I used to, when I do it's in a Alabama pocket holster with a strip in one of my other pockets...and a LCP Max somewhere else on me. Nowadays, about 95% of the time I have a LCP Max in a Don Hume pocket holster and my P365 in a kydex appendix carry holster.
The 642 is certainly still a viable option, I just do a better job at hitting what I shoot at with the P365.
The 642 is certainly still a viable option, I just do a better job at hitting what I shoot at with the P365.
.455_Hunter
Member
The problems with the "What about multiple attackers?" argument are the following:
For a normal boring John Smith citizen out in public in the US, without any threat enhancers (NOT off-duty LE with an obligation to "get involved", NOT owner/staff of a high risk business, NOT known to be carrying large sums of cash, NOT having other reasons to be specifically targeted, NOT living in the Favela), how often do they experience multiple threat attackers?
If such a citizen is accosted, how often do the perpetrators continue to press the attack once it is determined that the "victim" is armed, willing to shoot, or actually shooting back? From everything I have seen, the "scatter like roaches" factor is 99%+.
Until armed citizens are dying in the streets from a lack of capacity or lack of speedy reloads, the debate is rather moot. Given the large number of DGU events per year, these issues should statically manifest themselves if it truly was a problem.
Caveats:
Everybody should carry what they want, just don't think your EDC of a high-capacity polystriker with two extra extended mags makes you "better equipped" or "more serious" about defensive carry.
Nothing here should be interpreted as support for any legal restrictions on what can be possessed or carried for armed defense.
"What about Dicken in the Mall?" Yes- Mr. Dicken fired 10 rounds and hit the perp with 8 at extended distance with a G19 using ball ammo. Given his demonstrated skill level, I suspect a similar positive outcome if he would have been armed with a 3" Model 10 and 135 gr Gold Dots. His experience is more a lesson on the benefits of tactical marksmanship rather than capacity.
My personal typical EDC platforms vary from 5 to 8+1 capacity, are carried with a reload, and are usually complemented with a micro-BUG. In high NPE scenarios, the BUG may be the only thing carried.
With regards to the 642, my only preference would be for the 442 and it's easier to conceal qualities in our dry climate. Somebody in a humid area may differ
For a normal boring John Smith citizen out in public in the US, without any threat enhancers (NOT off-duty LE with an obligation to "get involved", NOT owner/staff of a high risk business, NOT known to be carrying large sums of cash, NOT having other reasons to be specifically targeted, NOT living in the Favela), how often do they experience multiple threat attackers?
If such a citizen is accosted, how often do the perpetrators continue to press the attack once it is determined that the "victim" is armed, willing to shoot, or actually shooting back? From everything I have seen, the "scatter like roaches" factor is 99%+.
Until armed citizens are dying in the streets from a lack of capacity or lack of speedy reloads, the debate is rather moot. Given the large number of DGU events per year, these issues should statically manifest themselves if it truly was a problem.
Caveats:
Everybody should carry what they want, just don't think your EDC of a high-capacity polystriker with two extra extended mags makes you "better equipped" or "more serious" about defensive carry.
Nothing here should be interpreted as support for any legal restrictions on what can be possessed or carried for armed defense.
"What about Dicken in the Mall?" Yes- Mr. Dicken fired 10 rounds and hit the perp with 8 at extended distance with a G19 using ball ammo. Given his demonstrated skill level, I suspect a similar positive outcome if he would have been armed with a 3" Model 10 and 135 gr Gold Dots. His experience is more a lesson on the benefits of tactical marksmanship rather than capacity.
My personal typical EDC platforms vary from 5 to 8+1 capacity, are carried with a reload, and are usually complemented with a micro-BUG. In high NPE scenarios, the BUG may be the only thing carried.
With regards to the 642, my only preference would be for the 442 and it's easier to conceal qualities in our dry climate. Somebody in a humid area may differ
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smithman 10
US Veteran
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
Totally disagree. I have been shooting handguns 60+ years. People are very different and one size does not work for everybody.
In Law Enforcement I have seen people fail with every handgun platform available. You carry what you shoot best. Truly the best shooters on the street is the ones who own one (sometimes two) handgun. The majority of shooters who own 20+ handguns fall into the "jack of all trades and master of none" principle. JMHO.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
True that. It was cold today.
Just a side note. Have you ever been stopped by the police with your hands in your pockets?
.455_Hunter
Member
I think we actually agree. My statement was intended to only be valid if Mr. Dicken was familiar and proficient with his Model 10, like he was with the G19.
Carry whatever you're comfortable with. If it's a 5 shots in the pocket, go with that. If you can swing it, throw in a speed strip or speed loader.
When I'm just wondering around the house, I have a Glock 43x loaded with 16 rounds in an IWB kydex holster.
When I'm out in public, it's usually a mid to full size semi-auto backed-up by a J frame.
That's what's comfortable to me.
If you feel you want more capacity, you may want to step-up to something like the Glock 43x or Sig 365 IWB or AWB. Both of these guns will be smaller than your G26 and offer at least 10+1 capacity. If on a budget, the Taurus GX4 is pretty small and offers 11+1 in the standard mag.
Contrary to the 5 is enough crowd, there has been times when 5 isn't enough. But being part of that statistic would be very rare.
When I'm just wondering around the house, I have a Glock 43x loaded with 16 rounds in an IWB kydex holster.
When I'm out in public, it's usually a mid to full size semi-auto backed-up by a J frame.
That's what's comfortable to me.
If you feel you want more capacity, you may want to step-up to something like the Glock 43x or Sig 365 IWB or AWB. Both of these guns will be smaller than your G26 and offer at least 10+1 capacity. If on a budget, the Taurus GX4 is pretty small and offers 11+1 in the standard mag.
Contrary to the 5 is enough crowd, there has been times when 5 isn't enough. But being part of that statistic would be very rare.
Yaworski
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IFF they shoot regularly. Most of the people I've known with one gun, run a box of ammo through it when new and never shoot it again.
Good with many different tools or excellent with just one? I'd rather have a neighbor who is the former than the latter.
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Good for you. Regrettably, many don't see things that way. Good shooting skills are unimportant to many people.
Having lots of magazine capacity, lots of ammo, one or two extra guns, some sort of miscellaneous gadgetry, a knife or two, a flashlight (and maybe a spare), a tactical pen (thought that was a joke when I first heard of such a year ago) and possibly some survival food (stuffed in their underwear because there was no room anywhere else) is important to many. And that's for a non-law enforcement concealed carry (hobbyist?) waiting for the big imaginary gunfight with multiple evil and deadly criminal swine.
Again, put shooting prowess aside. It's more important for some to be able to quote statistics and know the actual name of a person involved in a publicized shooting incident and quote that person's name on a regular basis in addition to worshipping at their shrine.
Instead of developing expertise in shooting, some folks develop a good strong sense of paranoia and worry about things that needn't be worried about.
If you can carry a bag full of tricks on a daily basis and also shoot with a high level of skill, that's something good, but from reading these posts and many others that deal with this sort of thing, the bag of tricks and reasonably good shooting expertise are often not found together.
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Fighting Philosophy
In short, with a five shot snub nose revolver, you intend for each and every round to count.
You are expecting one assailant. Five rounds is more than adequate.
You are determined to use any means necessary including empty-hand skills or improvised weapons to resist the threat. It ain't all just gun!
You know that guns in movies are imaginary magic charms and that they do not work that way in real life, therefore, you intend to fire once perhaps twice and then assess and adapt.
Now about range and barrel length, I appreciate your honesty, but take it to the range and start moving the target back. Won't you come back here and tell us what happened? We all might be gratified to learn that your arm has a longer reach than you thought, but either way you want to know where the thing works and where it does not and fight accordingly.
A high capacity 9mm semi auto equips for a different fighting style. You may say that your Glock will be fine either way, you'd be right.
If ya got a pointy stick, learn to win with it.
One other thought. On this fine forum, for which I really am thankful, if you say anything at all about how a gunfight might go down and hence prepare for that, there is at least one nincompoop here who will accuse you of being a gunfighter wannabe. Please ignore him.
Please correct me, as I am not the expert. This is the part of the subject in which I am most interested.
Kind regards!
BrianD
These weapons are tools that match the fighting philosophy that explains and justifies their use. I can talk about this at length but people don't usually appreciate my doing that. I tend toward wordy pedantry on any subject.
In short, with a five shot snub nose revolver, you intend for each and every round to count.
You are expecting one assailant. Five rounds is more than adequate.
You are determined to use any means necessary including empty-hand skills or improvised weapons to resist the threat. It ain't all just gun!
You know that guns in movies are imaginary magic charms and that they do not work that way in real life, therefore, you intend to fire once perhaps twice and then assess and adapt.
Now about range and barrel length, I appreciate your honesty, but take it to the range and start moving the target back. Won't you come back here and tell us what happened? We all might be gratified to learn that your arm has a longer reach than you thought, but either way you want to know where the thing works and where it does not and fight accordingly.
A high capacity 9mm semi auto equips for a different fighting style. You may say that your Glock will be fine either way, you'd be right.
If ya got a pointy stick, learn to win with it.
One other thought. On this fine forum, for which I really am thankful, if you say anything at all about how a gunfight might go down and hence prepare for that, there is at least one nincompoop here who will accuse you of being a gunfighter wannabe. Please ignore him.
Please correct me, as I am not the expert. This is the part of the subject in which I am most interested.
Kind regards!
BrianD
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
Seems that the only people asking this question are old white guys.
Show up at a gunfight with a J frame around here and they'll take away your gansta card. If you ain't carryin' GLOCK-you ain't gangsta'!
Show up at a gunfight with a J frame around here and they'll take away your gansta card. If you ain't carryin' GLOCK-you ain't gangsta'!
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