Fixed sight N frame transition from satin to bright blue

[pbslinger]

I've got a 6-1/2" Model of 1950 Heavy Duty with high polish blue. The serial number is 14234X, which by comparing with other fixed sight N frame ship dates, (don't know if HD serial numbering is in line with 44 Special guns) possibly should have shipped early 1955. I know that serial numbering and shipping didn't happen in an orderly manner, and I've seen that a group of S prefix N frame guns in this range didn't ship until the later 1950s. My HD is bright blue without a "B" denoting this option was selected. Am I to assume my gun was made after the transition to bright blue from satin finish even though the serial number might suggest it should be a satin finish gun?

This would seem to mean my HD is one of the last of the non model marked HDs or nearing the end of them, since it is bright blue without a "B" option indicated.

Possibly what happened is they made a run of fixed sight N frames, and just picked from them as orders came in, not really worrying if the sequence was followed. I doubt they were building many or any HDs for stock at this point of their production span, and only built them to use up parts or to fulfill rare orders. I can imagine the scenario where they had a few thousand fixed sight N frames already made, and were having to figure out how to configure them best to sell them.

Anyone know approximate grit of buffing compound on satin finish guns, and on bright blue guns? Did bright blue guns get a satin finish as a step before bright blue polishing? Also was there a known history of the transition from satin to bright blue by gun model? Did some models that were satin get noticable early priority in the transition to bright blue?

 

[Hondo44]

I don’t think it’s safe to determine which finish it should have by the serial number when it’s that close to the change.

Have you inspected it for a refinish?

Yes it’s in the same serial range as the 44 and other N frames.

 

[pbslinger]

Appears to be original finish, but what symbol would indicate a refinish?

 

[mojave30cal]

How about a picture of said 6 1/2" HD?

 

[pbslinger]

Appears to be original finish, but what symbol would indicate a refinish?

Did a forum search for refinish markings, none are evident.

 

[bigmtnman]

My 1954 mfg. # S106469 shows a bright blue finish and factory refinish stamps for Feb. 1976 "2 76"

 

[rct269]

I've had two satin finish guns, both of which I sent back to have refinished in bright blue. One was a K-22. Its journey was regular, everyday plain vanilla. It came back in due course (absolutely letter perfect) wearing the symbols S <> on the frame/cylinder/barrel---and the date code 4 60 on the frame. I decided S meant it was to be returned from Finishing to the Service Department, so they could put it back together, and send it back to me---and <> meant bright blue. The other was anything but regular, everyday plain vanilla.

It was a .44 H.E. 4th Target I'd sold. The buyer asked me to have it refinished in bright blue before delivery---AND to ask that NO factory service/refinish markings be applied to the gun. I told him I'd ask, but figured it'd be unlikely they'd comply with such a request. I asked, and they complied---with no commentary whatsoever. It too came back absolutely letter perfect--with no markings---just as though it was regular, everyday procedure.

SO-------what "appears" to be original finish may very well be something other than that---------and without the markings, who's to know? (!!)

As an aside, while I've only seen a handful of (KNOWN) factory refinished guns, none of them showed ANY sign of having been redone---except for the markings. The absolutely very best of the lot was a 5" NICKEL Registered Magnum----as new (maybe even better, if such a thing is even possible) with NO markings---none you could see right off at any rate. Now it's time for its welcome bath---step one being to take it all apart----every single piece except for the barrel and action studs.

BEHOLD!! What's THIS?!! THIS is FIVE very tiny little stars (early factory service marks---except these were much smaller than normal) very well hidden on every place it has a place---frame/cylinder/yoke/barrel/sideplate----and everything under the sideplate was brand new! I decided what I was holding in my hand was a completely rebuilt and refinished Registered Magnum---with a pretty good effort made to obscure that fact. Maybe that was an early effort to obscure such---before they decided they could just as well not bother with any markings at all.

Just when you think you've seen everything, you haven't!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rct269]

My best guess as to the existence of the satin blue finish (aka the funky finish) goes like this: The polishing folks are THE very best of the best craftsmen in the place----better even than the fitters.

After the war, when damn few of the folks who'd been there before the war were still there, they had to start over----training/developing a pretty much brand new work force. They also had to make and sell new guns--at the very same time all this training/developing is going on----and these new guns they want to sell have to look at least halfway decent!

What to do?!!

What to do on short notice is to back way the hell off any effort to put out bright blue guns----'cause they're going to look worse than you can possibly imagine---having been polished by a new guy---never mind the new guy has access to the very best polishing equipment in the known universe-----he ain't got "the touch"!! He'll get "the touch" directly, but directly ain't right now!!

Behold again----Satin Blue---the miracle finish that might very well didn't start off with any polishing at all----maybe with just a blasting with some miracle media---crushed walnut shells maybe. (Don't laugh! You ought to see the finish left on steel after it's been attacked by crushed walnut shells----it's impressive!!)

Is that really the way it happened? I started to say I don't have the first clue, but I've already given you the first clue---and who the hell cares anyway?!!

It is what it is----or was. And now we have plastic guns---and glass bead peened stainless guns, and God only knows what else! If they still have Bright Blue guns, the polishing's probably been done over at Turnbull's place. But if it was, it's going to cost extra---'cause "Business as usual" ain't usual anymore---and likely never will be!

More's the pity!

Ralph Tremaine

As a COMPLETE aside, but what I hope will be interesting, S&W's polishing is/at least was done with hard leather (Walrus hide?) FORMED wheels---about a gazillion of them---and polishing compound. The secret to success, and the reason there's a gazillion of them is because each wheel (and the duplicates of each wheel so more than one person could be doing the polishing of the same surface at the same time on a different gun) is formed to fit each and every surface of each and every S&W product ever made-----or at least ever made after they started up with these wheels-----EACH AND EVERY SURFACE!!

Sit and stare at any S&W revolver ever made---aside from the really early ones---which are some short on style. You're going to see a whole bunch of different surfaces. Matching these surfaces with a matching polishing wheel is THE secret to the most drop dead gorgeous finishing known to man!!

It is also why folks that don't have such wheels have to charge you an arm and a leg for a decent refinish on a S&W hand ejector revolver. I'm thinking the top drawer refinishes we see today from folks without these wheels are done by hand---seems like the only game in town.

 

[pbslinger]

Interesting about the complied request for no markings, and the strategically placed ones on the nickel RM.

 

[rct269]

Interesting about the complied request for no markings, and the strategically placed ones on the nickel RM.

Interesting? Yeah---more like scary---depending on what you have in your hand---and depending on what you thought you were holding in your hand---and how many beaver skins you had to give for it!!

On the other hand, I've yet to see a factory refinished gun I could tell was refinished by looking at anything besides the markings. That figures because the only thing that makes any sense at all is the refinishing is done by the same folks/same quality folks using the same equipment as is used for regular production.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[paplinker]

Interesting about the complied request for no markings, and the strategically placed ones on the nickel RM.



On the other hand, I've yet to see a factory refinished gun I could tell was refinished by looking at anything besides the markings.

Ralph Tremaine

I own a factory refinished nickel K22 that was sent back by the original owner. He told me he sent back a few in the 70s and always sent great condition guns and loved nickel.

He also asked no marks be put on them. The gun looks incredible with seams as tight as new and no dishing.

There is only one tell I found. They restamped the trademark and its a bit deeper than any S&Ws I own.

 

[DWalt]

I have refinished many guns by using fine ceramic media blasting as the only metal prep. The end result looks much like the postwar factory satin or matte blued finish, and takes little time to perform as compared to wheel polishing. And it is not difficult to learn how to do it.

 

[Doc44]

To muddy the waters...If S&W transitioned to S&W bright blue in 1955/56 for their revolver line, why do the circulars and catalogs post 1956 only show S&W bright blue as being standard on the Model 29, 27, 19, 41, and 52? All others are listed as S&W blue with some also being available in nickel and the Model 28 in satin blue.

Bill

 

[rct269]

Did a forum search for refinish markings, none are evident.

For openers, I don't know enough about all this to be running my mouth, but since there haven't been any other takers, I'll tell you what I know---and at least some of what I think. The main thing I think is the only folks who KNOW what the various markings mean are the folks who put them there---and their boss. That rather caustic opinion arises from the fact any given symbol discussed here is good for several responses as to meaning---and note I said "responses" rather than answers.

What symbol(s) are dependent upon the when. The earliest I know of is a five pointed star-----typically found on the butt---along side the serial number. I don't know when it started, but think it ended in the mid 20th century. AND---all that said, it's NOT necessarily a refinish marking, but a factory service marking---any/all service. I hear tell all guns sent back for service of any type were refinished as a matter of course---at least for a period of time---don't know the truth of that, but enough folks came to believe it that it (the star) became known as a refinish mark. And just to keep things interesting, I've seen guns (more than a few) with stars only---no date code.

At whatever point the star went away it was replaced by several others, some of which are for damn sure refinish marks. The only such marks I KNOW about appeared on a K-22 I sent back for Bright Blue (instead of Satin blue). It came back with these marks (on the frame/cylinder/barrel for sure---and quite possibly on the yoke and sideplate as well (never noticed)---the last two included simply because they finish/refinish in pieces---and those are the pieces.) The symbols: S <>----4 60. 4 60 is a date code (April 1960). I hear tell it may also appear as 460, 4-60, and 4/60. I figure the S is an instruction to the finishing folks to return the pieces to the Service Department. I figure that because I sent it to the Service Department, and it stands to reason they're the ones who passed it along to the finishing folks. I figure the <> means bright blue because that's what I asked for. Any other interpretation strikes me as HIGHLY questionable.

Now let's treat with the opinions the Service Department has/had their own refinishing operation. We're going to put you behind the desk in the corner office-----UPSTAIRS! You have A BUNCH of the money YOU'RE responsible for tied up in a Finishing Department. Are you really going to duplicate that operation elsewhere in the same building? NOT ME!! If you say yes, you're not going to be behind that desk too much longer---unless your last name is Wesson. I've been there---behind such a desk--and I managed to stay there until I wanted to leave. And even if your name is Wesson, you answer to some other folks named Wesson---and family only comes first depending on who's Ox is getting gored!! And of course, nowadays, there aren't any Wessons-----just corporate officers of the conglomerate that owns the company you think you're in charge of-----and a Board of Directors---who think they're in charge---just to keep things interesting---and both those entities are there to keep YOU on your toes!! There are bosses, and then there are BOSSES!!------those would be THE BOSSES of the boss!

War is hell!!

As an aside, that nickel Registered Magnum I spoke of earlier had what might be a date code---two of them actually. These were two sets of 5 digit numbers---all run together--no spaces in between, no separation marks in between---and either/both could be dates. The dates were on the left grip frame---which is where all such is usually found.

The bottom line here is I'm not the guy to be telling anybody about factory service/refinish markings because I haven't seen hardly any of them. I had exactly one refinished gun in my collection (one other besides that K-22), and the only reason I had it was because it was an odd-ball (5" M&P Target) offered in lieu of a whopping $600 a guy owed me---and HAD owed me for a spell----and I wanted the entire episode to be GONE! (The good news is it went away along with with the rest when my collection was liquidated---and sold for $950.) So there for sure is a God!

Here's hoping some others will be along to add to this very sparse discourse---some others who KNOW---'cause I'd like to KNOW too. My knee-jerk reaction to all this is I'm thinking we have (some), (limited), access to exactly one person who KNOWS about this stuff. That would be the good Doctor Jinks---and that's because I THINK he was the Service Manager at some point in time along his way. Whether he was or not, he for sure has an encyclopedic knowledge of pretty much all things Smith & Wesson unmatched by another living soul.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[pbslinger]

rct269 - When I said I searched the forum for refinish markings, I found info and looked at my Heavy Duty and found not refinish markings, not that I didn't find info on them. I didn't notice the ambiguity in my response until today. Thanks

 

[Doc44]

The refinish markings I am familiar with...R-S, refinish with standard polish, R-N, refinish in nickel, B <>, refinish in bright blue. I have not encountered S<>, a good one to ask Roy Jinks about.

Bill

 

[handejector]

To muddy the waters...If S&W transitioned to S&W bright blue in 1955/56 for their revolver line, why do the circulars and catalogs post 1956 only show S&W bright blue as being standard on the Model 29, 27, 19, 41, and 52? All others are listed as S&W blue with some also being available in nickel and the Model 28 in satin blue.

Bill

Bill,
Because S&W was notorious for lagging with updates to catalogs. Sometimes they were on the ball, sometimes not. We see pics in catalogs that do not show the latest standardized sights, like 22/32 Targets that still show bead sights after the Patridge became standard. We see pics with obsolete grips on revolvers.
I think they printed the AMCs sometimes with no updates except prices. Pics and specs would eventually catch up.

 

[DARE]

Here is my Pre-43 that shipped July 1955. Service date 10-74. Has S<> on the cylinder and under the barrel. R-S on the grip frame.

 

[SS336]

This is very interesting. There seems to be an awful lot of different markings to be deciphered.
May be someone could tell me what this means. I realize it’s on a much later revolver but it is interesting at least. The R A S means what?

 

[wbraswell]

pbslinger, I have a 6.5" HD, that is very close to yours, S142290. It is satin blue and shipped Feb. 1952. Maybe your gun was a special order. I know some time around then, the bright blue was an option on some models.