Input on a Doug Koenig PC 1911-2 38Super

[cherrypointmarine]

Like the title says , looking for some input on these . If you have any experience with one of these , please include it here . Give me the pro's and con's if you are so inclined . I've heard nothing but good , but I'd rather hear it from a S&W person who's not comparing it to something else . I have a Tanfoglio Stock III and a Colt Super Elite , both in 38Super . Being a PC guy , I'm wanting a S&W PC in 38Super , then all will be right in the world , at least until I want another S&W .

 

[AveragEd]

I bought this one for what I considered a lot of money from a Texan who had the hots for an original Colt Peacemaker and wanted to fund that purchase. They don't appear for sale very often and when they do, they are salty. Persons with PC knowledge consider them to be some of the last "real" Performance Center products.

From following them, I learned there are two versions manufactured a few years apart - 1989 and 1995, I believe. One has a curved trigger, S&W rear sight and fiber optic front sight while the older version like mine has a flat trigger, Wilson Combat rear sight and black Patridge front sight. Both have slides that are relieved for lightness and severely lightened hammers. Mine came in an aluminum PC case with its original grips and a set of rosewood S&W grips plus its documentation. I'm a sucker for nice wood so I keep these grips on it. I also am arthritic so I use Wilson extended slide releases on all my 1911s.

It shoots great, as you would hope and expect. I load 125-grain cast semi-wadcutters over 6.0 grains of AutoComp and it is an accurate low-recoil joy to shoot. When I take it to my club, it garners a lot of looks and questions.

Ed

 

[505Gibbs]

They don't show up very often anymore! When they were first released the MSRP was $1695! Hard to see one for that anymore & IF you do -something is missing. I've seen them w/wo the PC hard case. I'm guessing the last ones were without the case but a soft sided case instead.
A nice one with the case is about 1800+ these days.
I have several 1911 style 38 supers but I still look for one of these.

 

[Sevens]

From following them, I learned there are two versions manufactured a few years apart - 1989 and 1995, I believe.

Hi Ed, I think we have a mistake in here. The very first 1911's that Smith & Wesson ever built were in the 2001-2002 range and the newly formed Performance Center team was in it's infancy way back in 1989.

I am aware of two variants of Doug Koenig marked SW1911's, but one of them is a dark .45cal and the other is your PC .38 Super in full stainless. The .45cal Koenig pistol has some added features but it is not a PC and you can feel that immediately in the slide-to-frame fitment of it.

I do believe that the beautiful pistol you show was a very late example of the Performance Center, as the "UBZ" serial prefix was used for the last gasp of the PC before it was disassembled and shut down.

If you have any provenance or even links to other information that counters this, I would love to learn more!

 

[Borderboss]

I can't help on the gun but I can help a little on the potential dating. I was shooting a lot of USPSA and NRA Action back then. Doug came from out of nowhere in 1990 when he won the USPSA Nationals. Nobody had ever seen him before, except for his mentor, Rob Leatham. For years after that, Doug shot for Springfield Armory, like Leatham. I don't believe Doug's relationship with S&W would be until the middle of the first decade of the 2000s.

 

[AveragEd]

The SCoSW lacks clarity but I have seen photos of the two versions. Someone on this Forum posted years ago about the two dates and I was assuming mine to be from the initial run because fiber optic sights hadn't come into popularity back then and it kind of made sense that if Smith & Wesson would reduce the feature content - their own rear sight instead of buying from Wilson and a soft case in place of the aluminum one, for example - that would have occured in the later run.

I obviously am not privy to all the information on these guns but longed for one and posted that on this Forum, which is how the person in Texas came to contact me. And 505Gibbs is spot-on with his price estimation - $1,800 is exactly what I paid for mine about 12 years ago. That Peacemaker must have really been pricy!

I had a Kimber 1911 in 38 Super but Kimber's customer service really soured me on their products. I had a problem with something and even after it eventually was exchanged after three failed repair attempts, the problems continued and they were not forthcoming with information about it. I sold off my four Kimber 1911s and replaced them with Smith & Wessons. I had one problem with my PC .45 with the slotted slide and it was handled professionally, including a personal telephone call.

Ed

 

[AveragEd]

Curiosity and some free time drove me to my 4th Edition of the SCoSW. On page 406 is a series of photos of S&W 1911s, one of which is of a stainless 1911 identical to mine except the DK logo is not on the slide (the grips do bear it though) and it has the curved trigger with the Patridge sight. On page 407 is a list of SW1911 SKU numbers and there is only one PC1911 in .38 Super with a five-inch barrel, #170257, so was there only one run but with mixed content - sights, markings and triggers? There is no date for that SKU but based upon the ones around it, mid-2000s seems about right.

And further investigation revealed a chart on page 435 of Performance Center models in which SKU 170257FC is dated 2005.

So why so many variations of one model over such a short period of time? I'm getting a headache...

Ed

 

[Sevens]

For some of the guns it was almost surely a matter of parts suppliers, having a bunch of parts, using them up, not being able to get exactly the same parts so then using whatever they got next. That was somewhat common for the PC semiautomatic pistols.

The 945 is the finest example of this and almost ENDLESS variations. To truly understand the 945 variables, we would absolutely need to speak to someone inside. Most or possibly every single one of these folks is retired from any facet of gun building but the one thing I think we know for certain is that NONE of them work anywhere for S&W at any level today.

I have no doubt in my mind that your pistol with a UBZ-serial prefix is a very, very late build by the real Performance Center. I would estimate 2009-2010 or so.

 

[Sevens]

Here is a link to a picture of the .45cal Koenig gun. I have never owned nor shot but I have handled a couple of them. I promise you that if you own the Koenig .38 Super and you handled this two-tone Koenig .45, you would:

—be shocked at what the .45 is NOT
—fall deeper in love with your .38 Super

These two pistols are as different as night & day. If I recall (not certain here but) the MSRP of the true PC .38 Super was about TWICE the suggested retail of the two tone .45.

Google Image Result for https://www.genitron.com/HandgunDB/DBImages/sw-1911-dk.gif

 

[AveragEd]

Thank you for the information. I am glad I own this pistol and I'm happy that it has the content it does for I like this combination better than the others I've seen.

Thanks again!

Ed

 

[cherrypointmarine]

Thanks for all the input ! The one I'm looking at is in the PC case with the flat trigger . It even has all the paperwork along with an extra set of grips . It's not at $1800 , but it's not far off . Considering what I've paid for some of my PC guns , it's not bad at all .

 

[AveragEd]

Good luck to you. I hope you get it and enjoy it as much as I do mine. After reading the posts to this thread, I'm even more happy I bought it.

Ed

 

[Tntcwg3]

Thanks for all the input ! The one I'm looking at is in the PC case with the flat trigger . It even has all the paperwork along with an extra set of grips . It's not at $1800 , but it's not far off . Considering what I've paid for some of my PC guns , it's not bad at all .

Cherrypointmarine, did you acquire this one? I was watching two of the same, and as of this morning became the proud owner of my first. 38 Super. Both it and my .45 are earlier s/n's with DKC prefixes. Unfortunately, the one opted for didn't have the PC case or docs, but I was able to bargain it down to $1500.
*Edit* the .45 version prefix is DKP.