Unbelievable quality control fail - 3 for 3

[chief38]

Smith & Wesson has been manufacturing firearms since 1852, making it one of the oldest firearms manufacturers in the United States.

It is really difficult to understand why they have fallen so down on their products and past historical legendary reputation??

That is a very simple question to answer. S&W is NOT the same company (completely different ownership), NOT the same leadership, ethics, morals, employees etc. that it was back in the day. Unfortunately, this phenomenon is not exclusive to S&W and is quite common. Off the top of my head, I can not think of a single company that has been around for over a hundred years that has not changed over the decades. All the American car manufacturer's, appliance company's, clothing manufacturer's, etc. are company' today that would not even be recognized by their founders.

There have been many company's including gun company's that fell off their horse, however most have addressed the issues, repaired their broken ethics and failing practices, hired, trained and supervised better quality employees and now produce a better product. Remington, Colt, Ruger, Marlin, Taurus, Rossi, etc. were all victims of quality control and have now turned themselves around. S&W??????? Hello.......

 

[Narragansett]

Welcome to the Forum

Well, I am sorry to hear about your problems, but QC at S&W simply is not what it should be. How could you possibly test fire a gun that won't fire?

The performance center thing is way overstated. You get something a little different, but not necessarily better. I agree with the statement buy vintage. I have one M29 made in 1992 after that, it drops to 1982 and earlier. I also agree with the idea of buying a Colt over a Smith. Furthermore, the repair times are excessive. A couple years ago I sent a S&W made Walther PPK/S to Walther for a recall, and I had it back in 10 days, including the shipping. I also got a free magazine.

I think I am going to have to agree with your wife on this one

 

[PatriotX]

That is a very simple question to answer. S&W is NOT the same company (completely different ownership), NOT the same leadership, ethics, morals, employees etc. that it was back in the day. Unfortunately, this phenomenon is not exclusive to S&W and is quite common. Off the top of my head, I can not think of a single company that has been around for over a hundred years that has not changed over the decades. All the American car manufacturer's, appliance company's, clothing manufacturer's, etc. are company' today that would not even be recognized by their founders.

There have been many company's including gun company's that fell off their horse, however most have addressed the issues, repaired their broken ethics and failing practices, hired, trained and supervised better quality employees and now produce a better product. Remington, Colt, Ruger, Marlin, Taurus, Rossi, etc. were all victims of quality control and have now turned themselves around. S&W??????? Hello.......

As an aside, Buck Knives is still family owned and offering a lifetime warranty.

 

[Heinz]

I think the hole in the frame was a great idea, it marked when lawyers and accountants took control away from engineers and gunsmiths at S&W. I bought my last new S&W, a model 41, in 1963, have stuck with used ones ever since. No QC problems.

 

[Gunsquirrel]

Welcome to the Forum

Well, I am sorry to hear about your problems, but QC at S&W simply is not what it should be. How could you possibly test fire a gun that won't fire?

The performance center thing is way overstated. You get something a little different, but not necessarily better. I agree with the statement buy vintage. I have one M29 made in 1992 after that, it drops to 1982 and earlier. I also agree with the idea of buying a Colt over a Smith. Furthermore, the repair times are excessive. A couple years ago I sent a S&W made Walther PPK/S to Walther for a recall, and I had it back in 10 days, including the shipping. I also got a free magazine.

I think I am going to have to agree with your wife on this one

And these are the reasons I stick with only "vintage" guns, everything is CNC now, no more simple "fine tuning" a small part by assembler on the line. Colt is having issues also with their new stuff. The only problem with the older models is finding someone to work on them when you need a gunsmith issue fixed as opposed to something you can fix..

 

[chief38]

As an aside, Buck Knives is still family owned and offering a lifetime warranty.

Yes, that said, many Buck knives are now Chinese made and not the quality they once were. Yes, some are still made here. Buck, pretty much like Case produces fairly inexpensive knives. They fall into the "affordable" category and have a tough time completing with Chinese knives. People who can afford high end or custom knives usually step up hence the reason high end knife manufacturers have a long wait time and ridiculous prices - they can!

After being in my own manufacturing business most of my adult life I have learned a few things. Company's that produce very high end and very low end cheap goods usually both do well. The ones that try to be middle of the road usually have the toughest times. That is because their quality is no longer really high end and so the wealthy can simply afford to buy the best while the middle class says why not buy the Chinese knife - it's about the same quality but 1/3 the price.

That is why when I was in business I only went high end. I had almost no competition, the people who I sold to wanted and could afford the quality and my competitors (not really) could never understand high quality mentality and never went that route. While my competitors fought over the middle market, the low end manufacturers (Chinese) had their niche and I catered to the wealthy who only cared about uniqueness and super high end quality. I equate this to Mercedes (high end) real cheap low end and middle of the road automobiles. The cheap cars will always sell because, well they are cheap. The middle of the road guys will struggle for the masses and the high end company's like Mercedes will always do well because wealthy people usually want status symbols and they can afford them. If people are on their way up they will eventually go high end. If people are on the way down they will usually opt for low end and I have always found middle of the road company's struggle the most.

 

[GnarlsR2]

There seems to be a lot of hen-pecked husbands on the forum these days.

I’ve never felt "hen-pecked". However, I’m intelligent enough to know that I don’t know everything. My wife is my partner. We don’t agree on some things. I know she doesn’t understand my thinking sometimes. I don’t understand her thinking sometimes.

I appreciate her ability to make my life better everyday in some little way or a very important way. She constantly fills in the blanks for me. At my age I need all the help I can get.

 

[swagmeister]

Well said!!!

 

[Narragansett]

Yes, that said, many Buck knives are now Chinese made and not the quality they once were. Yes, some are still made here. Buck, pretty much like Case produces fairly inexpensive knives. They fall into the "affordable" category and have a tough time completing with Chinese knives. People who can afford high end or custom knives usually step up hence the reason high end knife manufacturers have a long wait time and ridiculous prices - they can!

After being in my own manufacturing business most of my adult life I have learned a few things. Company's that produce very high end and very low end cheap goods usually both do well. The ones that try to be middle of the road usually have the toughest times. That is because their quality is no longer really high end and so the wealthy can simply afford to buy the best while the middle class says why not buy the Chinese knife - it's about the same quality but 1/3 the price.

That is why when I was in business I only went high end. I had almost no competition, the people who I sold to wanted and could afford the quality and my competitors (not really) could never understand high quality mentality and never went that route. While my competitors fought over the middle market, the low end manufacturers (Chinese) had their niche and I catered to the wealthy who only cared about uniqueness and super high end quality. I equate this to Mercedes (high end) real cheap low end and middle of the road automobiles. The cheap cars will always sell because, well they are cheap. The middle of the road guys will struggle for the masses and the high end company's like Mercedes will always do well because wealthy people usually want status symbols and they can afford them. If people are on their way up they will eventually go high end. If people are on the way down they will usually opt for low end and I have always found middle of the road company's struggle the most.

This is one of my pet peeves, Chinese knives, and the companies like Smith and Wesson that brand them with their storied name. The NY State upper central region is or was home to Olean, Ka-bar, Camillus and Schrade. Schrade went out of business in their 100th year. Why?pressure from Chinese knives.

Now they are made in China with the Schrade name. The NRA passes around Chinese junk for membership renewal. Hell, we even give our Navy Seals Cold Steel Taiwan made knives. What is wrong with that picture? Can't we mandate American made for our troops? We did it with flags over military bases.

I have 2 things that I mandate for myself as having to be American made. They are knives and shoes

I don't buy Buck either. I do not think they take and hold an edge well. As for fixed blade knives, I find it very hard to get past a Ka-Bar USN standard issue fighting knife. Although I do throw out the junk Mexican sheath, and replace it with a hand made American sheath.

Rant over, we now return you to S&W PC quality control.

 

[serger]

But, but, they got rid of the internal lock....

 

[scruffy]

I handled 5 new revolvers yesterday. Four 686 and one 586. I passed on all five. The 586 had a trigger and action that literally crunched when the trigger was pulled in D/A and had a serious initial hitch when pressing the trigger in S/A. The 686s all had issues like a B/C gap you could drive a truck through, ill fitting cranes, buggered side plate where the tang on top fits under the frame, a barrel extension that looks like it was cut with a hack saw and one that had late carry up on the first few chambers I checked.

I did find one I would have bought, but was not interested in that variation. A 686+ PC with 5" barrel, bright orange blade front sight and extended cylinder release. Everything checked out. .003" B/C gap, smooth and light D/A and S/A action and beautifully finished forcing cone, etc. etc. It was a performance center gun and definitely different than the standard production guns I handled. $1,200. Too bad it's not what I wanted. Modern production is an absolute **** shoot. I would not even think of buying a new one without a thorough inspection.

 

[doubletapp357]

I tend to stay far away from the new revolver offerings Smith and Wesson put out. I do however trust and believe the polymer wonders they produce are of great quality. I bought a 5.6 inch Performance Center 10mm that I absolutely love! Im sorry you are having so many issues....... stick to the pinned barrel pre lock models!

 

[scruffy]

I tend to stay far away from the new revolver offerings Smith and Wesson put out. I do however trust and believe the polymer wonders they produce are of great quality. I bought a 5.6 inch Performance Center 10mm that I absolutely love! Im sorry you are having so many issues....... stick to the pinned barrel pre lock models!

Not all. I just got rid of a new Bodyguard 2.0 .380 due to multiple FTF and FTE issues. No way could I trust it for carry. Back to my 642PC and M60 revolvers.

 

[TexasRaider]

I pretty much feel like most all new weapons have issues these days, simply because industry wide it seems there's been a drag race to the bottom, driven by price-point profit lust. Quality control industry wide just seems to be less robust, products just seem more cheaply made, more apathetically assembled.

As far as Smith and Wesson revolvers go, I tend to buy those made before about 1998, as I despise their move to frame mounted firing pins and, later on, the universally hated Hillary Hole. Yeah, there were some QC hiccups in the 80's and before, but those I can live with as they can usually be fixed, if they're even still an issue after all these years. Usually a previous owner has already gotten it done.

Rugers? I like the 90's and older models, as from what I've read the older ones are more robust, but I can't swear to that per personal experience.

Sig? I'm a huge fan and I stick with their metal P-Series pistols mostly, those are pretty much the only pistols that I still feel ok buying brand new, as even their current production P226's, P220's and so on seem to be just as good as they've ever been. Even their SigPro line, the last one's being made until very recently, are still very reliable and well made.

Sig's polystrikers are quite a different issue, but not because of the P320 Drop-Scare nonsense, as much as it is that I just don't care for any polystriker of any make. Polystrikers are the quintessential 'cheapie' gun to me. I have zero interest in them.

Colts? Older, too. Only because I've heard mixed reviews on the newer CZ Colts.

Springfield? I try to find pre-2010 versions of their 1911's, if possible. Mainly because I'm still annoyed at their attempted backstabbing in 2017 (and their continued lying and attempts at covering it up) in the IFMA sellout. And I include Rock River in my ongoing personal little boycott for the same reason.

Walther? Metal pistols only, also preferrable of the pre-21st Century type.

Guess I'm just an old dog.....

 

[BC38]

I suspect that part of the quality control issue at S&W may not be a lack of skill as much as a lack of time available to assemble a revolver. Supervisors tend to keep goosing up production rates to save money short term. Warranty money comes out of a different “bucket” as they say.

Yup. Unfortunately THIS is how it works in Fortune 500 companies these days.

Everyone is so hyper-focused on THEIR specific little piece of the puzzle that nobody is seeing the bigger picture. This myopic view is the result of the way that Corporate organizations are structured.

Incentives are so narrowly-focused that everyone is intent on achieving the small-picture goals that have been set for them and handed down by the Corporate hierarchy.

This keeps most people from even seeing, much less working towards, a "higher" goal that will benefit the entire company.

Combine that with short-sighted top-level executives who are just managing the whole company to achieve the best possible short-term (a.k.a. the next fiscal quarter) bottom-line results, and you end up with a company focused on maximizing production and minimizing costs - with no regard for product quality or customer service.

This is how top-tier, premium companies devolve into being just another "also ran" competitor in the marketplace.

I mean, who would have EVER thought that there would come a day that S&W product quality would be compared to products from Taurus? Yet here we are...

Been there, seen it - though in a completely different industry.

 

[pistolpete10]

I'm not sure what to make of this.

About 8 months ago, I purchased a new 629 competitor performance center. The dovetail front sight got loose after the first 50 rounds. Sent it in under warranty. Waited 8 weeks to get it back. They put the front sight on crooked. I sent it in again, and waited another 8 weeks. It seems like it's fixed now.

About 3 weeks ago, I purchased a new 627 2 5/8" barrel performance center. The dovetail front sight got loose after the first 50 rounds. I just received an email today saying they are sending it back to me. I found out they replaced the barrel and the crane. The customer service lady didn't know the details as to why that was done.

Two days ago, I purchased a new model 19 carry comp 2.5" barrel performance center. This time, the front sight is pinned, so I found solace in knowing the front sight should be fine. I went to the range just 30 minutes ago to shoot it for the first time. It wouldn't fire. I got 6 light primer strikes on tried and dependable ammo. Packed up, went home, and I'm now writing you all. I may call the local gun shop I purchased this from and see if I can return it or get store credit. I don't know if I want to deal with getting this gun fixed too. Any advice on my options?

What do you all think? My wife thinks I'm crazy for keep purchasing their guns. Is she right?

Edit: 1/29/2025. I received my 627 back today from having its front sight repaired. Front sight is straight, but now half of the rear sight has been severely bent out of shape. It looks like they dropped it on the rear sight if I had to guess.

Also, thank you for all the comments. I’m glad to have joined this forum.

I don't plan to buy another new S&W revolver. I have 6, all have some sort of defect or defects. Not a good track record.

 

[Grayfox]

I have read way too many threads on this board about S&W selling defective guns and their QC issues.
I've been accumulating S&W revolvers for about 45 years now and have a safe full of them. The many threads like this is the reason why only one of mine was made during the current century.

 

[daverich4]

The S&W Performance Center is no longer in existence. It is simply a name added to specific inventory more or less a marketing item.
I will say it does sound strange to have this kind of luck with three separate purchases. S&W will make it right.
Welcome to the forum.

I’m curious where you got that information from? S&W still advertises the service as hand fitting and any time there’s a current review of a Performance Center firearm it’s presented as if it was gone over to improve it. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’ve just seen that claim made anywhere else.

 

[petepeterson]

I own a few older S&W revolvers.
I bought one NIB S&W revolver a few years ago, a 43c.
I won't be buying anymore new ones.

 

[rct269]

ALL of the "problems" we read about here aren't problems---they're simply symptoms of the real problem---and they will continue until such time as the identity of the real problem is admitted-------and changed.

The real problem doesn't have the first thing to do with the products, but with the philosophy of those who make the products. During the first hundred years the philosophy of those who made the products was very clearly "We will be successful if we build the best possible products for the price." They did just that, and it worked.

Then, along about the mid 1950's, an entirely different philosophy was born. It goes like this: "We will be even more successful if we build the product at the lowest possible cost." They gave that a try with the change from the "5 screw" design to the "4 screw" design----and damned if it didn't work! The cost of that one screw, one screw hole drilled and tapped, against the cost of a redesigned sideplate (which was chump change) times the number of guns that followed with 4 screws saved A BUNCH of money------and that savings went straight to the bottom line!! That's the good news. And guess what?!! There wasn't even a hint of any bad news! NOBODY fussed and fumed about the advent of the 4 screw guns---and then the 3 screw guns. I can tell you those folks who'd been trained in, and practiced the art of problem solving in the performance of their jobs might well have suffered a twinge of caution about what might be yet to come, but it didn't come----at least not for a good many years.

Then, for whatever reason, a change in ownership perhaps (and I say "perhaps" simply because I'm not familiar enough with that aspect of S&W history to not say it), a new and dangerous philosophy came to be-----that one about building the product at the lowest possible cost (and conducting the other operations at the lowest possible cost goes right along with it)!!

This new philosophy has matured over the years since, and the inevitable result is all the fussing and fuming we read about here. It's not going to change until such a time as the emergence of customers who don't know any better than to buy this garbage slows appreciably, or until there's a change in ownership that does know better. Better the latter!

Hope springs eternal!!

Ralph Tremaine