Help Me Identify Two Revolvers

[DonnyO]

Some good family friends lost their house, and their Father In Laws house 2 blocks away in the recent Eaton fire in California.
We recovered these two revolvers and I would like to return them to, if not usable at least a condition where they could enjoy the memories they have had with them.

Let me say I already learned a lot by reading the thread on how to help identify these guns. I'm a gun guy, but not a revolver guy so I enjoyed the history lesson. So here we go.

38 spl serial #140592
22lr Serial #207652
Both have 5 screws and the tension screw on the front strap
Both are 4" barrels
See attached pics

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer as these people are hurting in ways I can't begin to imagine.

 

[Culina]

The first one is a K22 combat masterpiece, the second is a K38 combat masterpiece, both have been modified, the lower front part of the frame has been chopped for custom grips, and based on the shape of the hammer they should be from the early to mid 1950's

 

[murphydog]

Welcome and sorry to hear of your friends' troubles.

The .38 Combat Masterpiece was made in 1952 and the .22 CM in late 1953.

Others here will chime in with opinions about restoring them to shootable condition after a fire, or even if a refinishing is possible.

 

[DonnyO]

Wow that was fast

Thank you!

 

[DonnyO]

Welcome and sorry to hear of your friends' troubles.

The .38 Combat Masterpiece was made in 1952 and the .22 CM in late 1953.

Others here will chime in with opinions about restoring them to shootable condition after a fire, or even if a refinishing is possible.

I sprayed them down and let them sit overnight and I was able to open the cylinders. The internals are somewhat free and seem to function but all the springs are dead from the heat.

 

[JP@AK]

The grip frames were both modified for Fuzzy Farrant stocks (grips). Doing that may have eliminated the K, which was part of the serial number. That said, here is what we can tell you.

K140592, chambered for the .38 Special, is a .38 Combat Masterpiece from 1952.

K207652, chambered for the .22 Long Rifle, is a .22 Combat Masterpiece from 1954.

Both were excellent revolvers. They are in tough shape now, sadly. Do you know how directly the fire affected them; that is, how hot they got? That could affect how serviceable they now can be. Probably you know that.

Good luck.

 

[JP@AK]

By the way - both of those revolvers are old enough that they should have the serial number under the barrel (on the barrel flat) and on the rear face of the cylinder. You should be able to observe the K in both of those locations.

 

[DonnyO]

By the way - both of those revolvers are old enough that they should have the serial number under the barrel (on the barrel flat) and on the rear face of the cylinder. You should be able to observe the K in both of those locations.

I just looked and the .22lr has the serial #on the flat of the barrel with the "K", the 38 does not.

All you guys are awesome BTW

 

[stansdds]

Those fires have been absolutely devastating to life and property. My heart goes out to those who have lost their homes and possessions to the fires and especially to those who lost family and friends.

I expect that those revolvers not only got very hot, but were hot for quite a while. Personally, I would not restore them to firing condition.

 

[merl67]

So sorry for the losses suffered. I would be reluctant to try to return the 38 to service. The 22LR could be a different matter given the mass of steel surrounding the chamber and bore. Obviously all springs would need replacing. It would be a cost prohibitive to pay to have it done unless someone had deep pockets, or could do it yourself. Family heirlooms tug at my heartstrings since I have very few so I know what I would do with both good luck with them.

 

[DonnyO]

Those fires have been absolutely devastating to life and property. My heart goes out to those who have lost their homes and possessions to the fires and especially to those who lost family and friends.

I expect that those revolvers not only got very hot, but were hot for quite a while. Personally, I would not restore them to firing condition.

I grew up a few miles from there and it's insane that entire neighborhoods are just gone. Most houses there are close to a hundred years old. Some of the first cities established there.

As far as firing condition I will be careful. I just restored a 1897 Rolling Block rifle that I deemed unsafe so it will be a wall hanger. I couldn't get the barrel clean, that coupled with it being in 7mm Spanish Mouser and people telling me modern ammo is likely to much for it I erred on the side of caution.

 

[DonnyO]

So sorry for the losses suffered. I would be reluctant to try to return the 38 to service. The 22LR could be a different matter given the mass of steel surrounding the chamber and bore. Obviously all springs would need replacing. It would be a cost prohibitive to pay to have it done unless someone had deep pockets, or could do it yourself. Family heirlooms tug at my heartstrings since I have very few so I know what I would do with both good luck with them.

I can do the work. Retired Auto Tech, jack of all trades, etc. I tinker, do trigger jobs and repair all my own guns, reload 8 calibers and 12ga, and so on.

 

[JP@AK]

I just looked and the .22lr has the serial #on the flat of the barrel with the "K", the 38 does not.

That's odd. I wonder if the barrel had been replaced at some point; perhaps when the grip frame was altered. It might originally have been a K-38 Masterpiece (6" barrel) and the owner wanted a Combat Masterpiece with the Fuzzy stocks. Interesting situation.

Best of luck with your restoration efforts. At least they can be made to LOOK nicer.

 

[BC38]

I sprayed them down and let them sit overnight and I was able to open the cylinders. The internals are somewhat free and seem to function but all the springs are dead from the heat.

If they were exposed to enough heat, for a long enough period of time to take the temper out of the springs, then restoring them to shootable condition seems unlikely.
That kind of heat exposure changes the properties of ALL of the steel - including the frame and cylinder.
They can be refinished to cosmetically "restore" them, but doing so will cost more than it is worth unless they have some really special sentimental value.
Like you, I am a jack of all trades type, and have made repairs to several guns. But FWIW, I wouldn't even consider trying to restore them to functional condition.

 

[DonnyO]

I wouldn't even consider trying to restore them to functional condition.

I still want to get them looking decent and internals working. They do mean a lot to them.

I have the time, a bead blaster, polishing/buffing equipment, etc. I did electrolysis bath on the .22 and the metal doesn't look pitted or damaged for the most part. At this point it looks like the biggest challenge will be getting the side plate screws out. I only got one out so far as I'm trying to be patient with them. Pretty easy to damage them and once I do that it becomes a mess, beyond the current mess, lol. Any tricks on getting them out? More cleaning and soaking is my only plan.

 

[BC38]

I still want to get them looking decent and internals working. They do mean a lot to them.

I have the time, a bead blaster, polishing/buffing equipment, etc. I did electrolysis bath on the .22 and the metal doesn't look pitted or damaged for the most part. At this point it looks like the biggest challenge will be getting the side plate screws out. I only got one out so far as I'm trying to be patient with them. Pretty easy to damage them and once I do that it becomes a mess, beyond the current mess, lol. Any tricks on getting them out? More cleaning and soaking is my only plan.

Two alternative suggestions.
1) spray the screws with PB Blaster and let it soak in for a day or two. Repeat 3 or 4 times before trying to loosen them.
2) Mix some automatic transmission fluid with an equal amount of acetone, pour the 50/50 mixture into a container large enough to submerge the entire revolver and submerge the gun in the solution. Leave it there for a couple of weeks before trying to loosen the screws.

The first option will most likely allow you to remove the screws. The second option will stand just as good of a chance of allowing you to remove the screws, and at the same time it will remove all the gunk and any loose rust from the entire gun.

Be sure to use a hollow-ground screwdriver of the right size when removing them. No cheap, soft metal, undersized screwdrivers. Use the right tool for the job.

You can replace the ruined springs and make the revolvers work again mechanically. But there is nothing you can do to make them safe to fire again. The heat damage has weakened the steel, and there is no practical way to restore its strength.

My biggest concern with doing something like that would be that someone, at some point, might try to fire them. If and when that happens, if they grenade under the stress of firing live ammo, the shooter (or bystanders) might be injured.

How would you feel about that? Personally, that's not something I would want on my conscience.

As others have posted, there is a lot more risk of something like that happening with the 38 special than with the 22LR.

How likely is that kind of failure? That is the real unknown, and something that really can't be reliably evaluated or qualified unless you want to have them tested by a lab.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but when it comes to firearms, I'm really cautious, and adopt a "better safe than sorry" approach.

As always, JMO and YMMV.

Good luck with your project...

 

[steelslaver]

If the springs are still springs and do not permanently deform when flexed, the rest of the frame s and cylinders will be alright with normal loads. I would soak them in a solution of equal parts auto transmission fluid, kerosene and acetone for several days, then clean up with bronze wool. If your local Ace hardware doesn't stock it, they can order it. Once that is done a better evaluation of condition will be possible

 

[Retired W4]

The area of SOCAL where those guns resided was the epicenter for the Fuzzy Farrant type modification of that era. It would be interesting to know the history and ownership of them, with possible LE connections. Obviously the 22lr would not have been a duty gun, and many guns, so modified went straight to civilian hands, but you never know. Good luck in the restoration process, and keep us up to date.

 

[glowe]

I have to challenge the cautions posted on using a gun that has been in a fire without data to support the comments? How do we know how hot is too hot for steel. I first set about trying to find out where temperatures are hottest in a home fire and how hot does an average home fire get. Most information states that home fires can get to 1000 degrees F and that temperature is achieved at the highest levels in a burning home. Temperatures near the floors reach 600 degrees F due to the cold air that is entering the home falls to the floor levels, so where the guns were located affects how hot they got. Of course if they were in a safe, that changes everything. Papers in fireproof safes are normally not burnt in a house fire, meaning the temperatures remain below 450 degrees. These are observations based on average house fires and standard ignition points of materials.

Next, I looked at how temperatures affected the strength of steel. Several sources find that at 450 degrees, steel actually increases in strength. Even at 600 degrees, steel is still 120% of original strength. At 1000 degrees, steel loses around 40% of its strength. In 1950, average high strength steel has a yield strength of 50,000 psi and S&W steel could have been higher. One can estimate that even 1000 degrees exposure still leaves 20,000 psi yield strength.

So, are fire damaged revolvers safe to shoot with standard loads, most likely, but the bottom line is to first determine where the guns were located during the fire. If in a attic of second floor of a burning home, I would be extremely cautious about shooting the gun.

 

[BC38]

I have to challenge the cautions posted on using a gun that has been in a fire without data to support the comments? How do we know how hot is too hot for steel. I first set about trying to find out where temperatures are hottest in a home fire and how hot does an average home fire get. Most information states that home fires can get to 1000 degrees F and that temperature is achieved at the highest levels in a burning home. Temperatures near the floors reach 600 degrees F due to the cold air that is entering the home falls to the floor levels, so where the guns were located affects how hot they got. Of course if they were in a safe, that changes everything. Papers in fireproof safes are normally not burnt in a house fire, meaning the temperatures remain below 450 degrees. These are observations based on average house fires and standard ignition points of materials.

Next, I looked at how temperatures affected the strength of steel. Several sources find that at 450 degrees, steel actually increases in strength. Even at 600 degrees, steel is still 120% of original strength. At 1000 degrees, steel loses around 40% of its strength. In 1950, average high strength steel has a yield strength of 50,000 psi and S&W steel could have been higher. One can estimate that even 1000 degrees exposure still leaves 20,000 psi yield strength.

So, are fire damaged revolvers safe to shoot with standard loads, most likely, but the bottom line is to first determine where the guns were located during the fire. If in a attic of second floor of a burning home, I would be extremely cautious about shooting the gun.

Note that in post #5 the OP states that the springs are "dead" from the heat.

If it got hot enough to take the temper out of the springs INSIDE the revolver, I can't see how the rest of the steel could escape been heated to the point of weakening it.