Changing the hammer spring to Beretta's "D" spring fixes the DA trigger pull.
So… is the Beretta M9 still the Worst?
- Thread starter Glenn R. McMannly
- Start date
Dadah333
Member
Let's see: In 1975 my first duty carry was an S&W Mod-10, 1976 a Colt Python to an S&W Mod-39. Then to Arnold AFB as a contractor cop. S&W Mod-15 Combat Masterpiece and the to the 92F-M9. Before retiring I carried several Glocks Mod-19, Mod-23, Mod-21, FNH 5.7, etc.
My favorite wheel gun was/is the Python. My favorite auto is the FNH. Then the Glocks, next is the M9. I've owned several 1911s. Colts/Rugers and I couldn't hit squat with any of them.
My favorite wheel gun was/is the Python. My favorite auto is the FNH. Then the Glocks, next is the M9. I've owned several 1911s. Colts/Rugers and I couldn't hit squat with any of them.
shil
Member
Why not just go back to the Colt M1917 sixgun and be done with it?
sousana
Member
I disagree, I've shot and carried the 1911 now going on 55+ years. Jamomatic??? Hardly. The Colt issued to me by the Marines as their unit Corpsman never once jammed, period. It shaked, it rattled, and it rolled but never jammed. I qualified Expert every time on her. Now, a new, hand fitted 1911 is going to have tight tolerances, which is why I break in New 1911s with 750rds, 250 ho & 500 ball. Of the dozens I own, only the Llama copy ever failed me miserably. $334 to buy new, $400 in repairs later, it now sits on my desk in the ER, AS A DESK CLOCK/PAPER WEIGHT. Conversely enough, I just purchased a Tisas 1911, with nothing but breaking it down co.pletely, cleaning and oiling it, in the past 3 months it's eaten 2100rds ball and 907 rds hp along with 300rds of the old 200gr jhp flying ashtray. Not ONE malfunction
I also have many M9s/92FS, I do like them and with today's ammunition, would feel comfy carrying one, that said, 55 years on the 1911, I can't change both my PC a 5" 1911 and BUG an officers sized 1911.
As to plastic guns, I'll admit to owning a Tupperware glock 17, 19, 20, 31, 32 however my favorite is a PSA Dagger Compact with an SW3 slide, rmr cut, TiN bbl. This sucker shoots point of aim and shoots and shoots and shoots. So far, she's at 7868 rds without issues with bullet weights from 77gr to 158, fmj & jhp. And to me, it handles and shoots better than the G19.
Jamamatic? I have one 1911 compact with an internal extractor that is approaching 30K rounds, in all that shooting it has never been prone to jam. In the case of a Kimber with internal extractor it probably has 12-15K no problem. I am currently shooting a Springfield Garrison 9mm 3-5k no jams that can't be traced back to reloaded ammo or magazines (Metalform). The Garrison has a really tight chamber and is "picky" about imperfect rounds. In the case of the M9/92 they are pretty much worn out in 23k rounds. No way of refurbing to extend their accuracy due to their aluminum frame design. When the "T Slot" that the barrel reciprocates in wears, accuracy in the pistol is done, even though they continue to operate flawlessly. I have replaced the locking block with an oversize one, it helps a little but it is not a long lasting fix.
Niether would I - I don't dislike the 40 (it beats 9mm and .357 Sig for effectiveness) but a friend had a stainless 96 as a rental gun at his indoor range - it broke 7 locking blocks in one year!
Not to be outdone, one of my assistant instructors took a 500 round course at Camp Robinson AR and broke two locking blocks in his M9 in one week - both were the new type with rounded corners (which actually was an improvement).
I will say the Winchester 124 issue ammo was "hell for stout" - I got 1200+ fps from my own 92 with it - mine have not broke but then I don't shoot them much.
On the first military class we did we saw so many malfuntions with both M9s and M16a1s I assigned a retired Col. to writing them down - he came up with a stoppage everytime the class fired 50 or so rounds with the M9 - but we figured part of it was due to the new Checkmate mags (this was 2001) and part was due to us shooting in a muddy field of sand and coal dust. Might have also been complicated by the guns being run fairly dry - I don't know why military folks want to run their guns dry (this was an SF outfit) but when lubed they ran better (and they started coating the Chekmate mags withing a year or two). The M16 problem was a different issue - they were custom 12.5" guns and were not assembled correctly.
That every 50 rounds does not mean per pistol - there were 30 students in the class so that is more like 1-3 per 1500 rounds - which is pretty bad to me, who expects 1 stoppage per every 50,000 rounds. I have attended and taught classes at Gunsite where there were 1-2 stoppages per 24,000 rounds for the week and in fact I have seen classes where there were none - but that was when the classes were mostly 1911s or Browning "Half-Powers".
Just Ramblin'
Riposte
greenrunner
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As this Hilton Yam guide says, if you haven't had these stoppages with a 1911, you need to shoot more.
That's pretty much how guys felt about issued 5906s back when we transitioned from 357 revolvers. The caliber was the issue; when a new Chief came in and stopped the 5906 transition and replaced them with 4506s and 4566s nearly all were happier, but a few die-hards kept their revolvers.
I do understand those who actually experienced 1911 stoppages, from the 1980s on. I was actually on a contract to figure out why they were experiencing malfunctions and damaged guns. I met with an engineer from Picitinny Arsenal at Ft. Knox (a meeting aranged by a good friend who had been an armorer at the Weapons Pool since around 1970 when he retruned from Vietnam).
We tracked it to two sources - one was ammo - I took a chronograph with me and we fired 50 rounds of TZZ issue ball - the average velocity was 950 fps with a high of near 1100! That ammo was made in Israel (perhaps with American components?) and after subsequent investigaton it was determined that the bullet pull was excessive due to the high temps the ammo was in while it made the trip across the ocean). That sort of explained the damaged pistols (which weren't many). BTW the average number of rounds these pistols had were 440,000 rounds each - that is only since my friend took over as armorer - there were no existing records he could find of how many total rounds they fired - the newest pistol was made in 1945 but there were some there made as early as 1912.
When it came to the reputation for stoppages, mostly failures to feed, I had asked my friend for a sample barrel they used for replacment (those too were Israeli) - they were chrome lined and looked good all except for the feedway which was a simple ~3/8" cut - I could immediately see this would never work so I set out with a dremel tool to reproduce a WW-I feedway cut which is a compound radius you cannot achieve with one cut - or at least I couldn't. As an aside, my very first AMT Hardballer had the same cut - it would not feed hardball!
We had an excellent opportunity to test, there was a Batallion going through pistol qual, the process was to run 20 soldiers through each lane (there were 30 lanes) using the same pistol on each lane - the course was 10 rounds fam-fire and 40 rounds for the qual therefore each pistol on the line fired exactly 1000 rounds that day - it didn't take as long as one might think, and not surprisingly we saw a lot of stoppages.
So after the qual was over we stepped up and the instructors for that qual remained as wittnesss and I installed my modified barrel - I then procended to fire 10 magazines through the pistol pretty fast (I am fairly quick) - No stoppages! I heard a comment from the instructors - I never saw one work that long!
The engineer from Picatinny had brought his own modified barrel - it was done a little different but it worked as well. He also brought the contract blueprint for the barrels - the Army had sent the wrong configuration and IMI had cut them exactly as ordered!
Another problem was the recoil springs - they too were a contract part and my friend showed me they cost 5 cents each - every one of those guns (30) that had gone 1000 rounds had to have the recoil spring replaced at the end of the class.
This is a far cry from the WW-II contract which required and inspector to fire one pistol out of every lot of 5,000 pistols for a test of 5,000 rounds - if there was one stoppage the whole lot of 5,000 pistols was rejected (there was the exception that if a lot failed the inspector could take a second pistol and fire 5000 rounds through it) - this information is available in Scott Meadows U.S. Military Automatics Vol. II (https://www.amazon.com/U-S-Military-Automatic-Pistols-1920/dp/B003L3UBG6).
Well I've rambled about enough!
Riposte
PS, the Army had just selected the M9 to replace the 1911. I asked the engineer what he thought and he said "Somebody ought to go to jail over this - they "bought" the contract".
I've changed mine both to a D srping and a stock 1911 24 lb spring - both seem about equal and they improved the DA pull but not enough to get rid of the "crucnchenticker" operation nor the overtravel in SA.
Ernie Langdons trigger (I do think he uses the D spring) has an overtravel stop and improves the SA trigger a good bit.
BTW - I've known people to change out the spring to a 19# 1911 spring - those usually ended up in misfires with hard primers on DA.
Riposte
I've owned 2 m92's An M9 and a 92XI SOA. Didn't like the M9. The only
ammo the M9 would shoot with consistency was 115 gr NATO. And was about
as accurate at 25 yds as a NAA .22 . The 92XI SOA does shoot well and will
spit out any ammo I've tried. It's accurate as any full size gun I ever shot. But,
I don't like it. My SIGs, fit my hand. the P220's, P226, the M11A1, the P225A1
P365, P239, P938's, all fit my hand. No adjusting, no cocking my wrist to get
a sight picture, it's just there. With the 92XI I have to cock my wrist at an
un-natural position to get a good sight picture. I'll be keeping my SIGs and
this is my last try with a 92. I tried to like it but no cigar.
Dano
ammo the M9 would shoot with consistency was 115 gr NATO. And was about
as accurate at 25 yds as a NAA .22 . The 92XI SOA does shoot well and will
spit out any ammo I've tried. It's accurate as any full size gun I ever shot. But,
I don't like it. My SIGs, fit my hand. the P220's, P226, the M11A1, the P225A1
P365, P239, P938's, all fit my hand. No adjusting, no cocking my wrist to get
a sight picture, it's just there. With the 92XI I have to cock my wrist at an
un-natural position to get a good sight picture. I'll be keeping my SIGs and
this is my last try with a 92. I tried to like it but no cigar.
Dano
For some reason I couldn't open the link.
I don't know Hilton, but I know who he is and he knows a bunch.
OTOH by the time I quit running an pistol club my Clyde Production machine had rolled over 365,000 rounds, and that was just in the 12 years I had had it (still got it but I don't load as much on it) - Now I've added a Dillon 650 and twice borrowed Dillon RL 1000s for a year to produce ammo. No telling how many thousands of factory loads I've fired. For the last 30 years I've been extremely busy instructing so I've shot more factory than handloads.
I really only have one 1911 I kept a log on, a Series 70 I bought new in 1980 - until I quit keeping the log (about 12 years I guess) it logged over 140,000 rounds (mostly cast 230 gr. bullets at 940 fps) - during those years I logged 4 stoppages - two of them were in the same mag and were Remington Factory 230 gr. from the same box - one was a misfire and one was a squib which left the brass in the chamber (but the bullet did exit). The other two were SWCs fired right after cleaning the gun (I learned from that to test my gun every time I clean it!).
When I quit regular competiton in 1995 (I did shoot in a match now and then up until 2000) I semi-retired that gun but easily I put another 25K through it but in the early 2000s I went to a Kimber for a practice gun, not because it was better but because it was cheap
To be sure I kept a log on other guns but not 1911s, for instance in that same period I have a Pre-war Colt Woodsman which fired slightly over 130,000 rounds - again I sort of wich I had kept on doing that because that gun had very few stoppages during that period but since then modern rim-fire ammo seems to have gone to pot and I have a lot more stoppages today!
I can only guess, I wish I had kept better records, but I feel it is a conserviative estimate to say I've fired between 750,000 and just over a million rounds of .45 auto from 1911s (but that number is spread out over a LOT of pistols). I have seen far more than that fired from various guns - from 2001 to 2014 I was a contract military instructors - some years we saw over a million rounds go downrange from M-16s, M4s and M9s and a few M249s - I saw far more stoppages and breakages from them!
I've been a firearms instructor for LE, Military and regualar Citizens ( LEOs, unless military are "civilians" since they fall under the standard legal system rules). For decades the most common gun I saw in classes was the 1911, but since the 80s that has changed - I see a LOT more - exponentially more - stoppages these days than I did in the old days - and I am attuned to watch for problems - I helped teach an instructors class back around 2020 - there was not a single 1911 in the class, most of the pistols were plastic frames - I counted 56 stoppages (might have missed some) on the first day (that was a light day with just a few hundred rounds fired) the next day it closed in on 100 - two of those were bullets stuck in barrels with factory ammo!
At any rate I have gone on too long! Thanks for your patience!
Riposte
shil
Member
Some Philadelphia officers apparently feel the same way about their revolvers. One once told me that he qualifies expert with his, hits what he's aiming at, and is confident with it. I didn't ask specifically, but there was what appeared to be a Smith Model 64 or 65 on his hip. On another note, I could never quite understand my local department's decision to trade its Smith 5906s for Glocks. I understand that Glocks can be good guns, but really? I say "can be" because I believe they have been more problematic than anyone will reveal. FYI. I understand SEPTA Transit Police bought SigPros to replace their Smith Model10s; not Glocks. I thought that was interesting. I didn't see their bid specifications, only notice of purchase approval.
At Wilson Combat, when we were selling lots of Beretta Brigadier and Centurion models of the 92, there was (might still be) a short-reach trigger option as well as the Action Tune. They made all the difference to me. (I still prefer my .45 full size and compact though.)
To all of you Glock fanboys out there ( and I'm one of them ) who think the Glock is infallible. I bought a NIB Glock 17 Gen 4 around 8 years ago . Totally stock and unmodified gun for range and IDPA use . At just over 8k rounds the tip of the striker broke clean off and left me with a paperweight.
I called Glock and they said too bad so sad but the striker is considered a wear part and has no warranty.
Yes Glocks can and do break . Keep a spare .
I called Glock and they said too bad so sad but the striker is considered a wear part and has no warranty.
Yes Glocks can and do break . Keep a spare .
All those "stoppages" are related to the extractor tuning. Most folks like expert Hilton Yam, don't understand that the extractor in a 1911 doesn't snap over the rim of the case. As the bullet nose is guided up the ramp into the chamber the case head slides up under the extractor. The tension on a case head should be somewhere between 0-25 inch pounds of pressure (Jerry Kuhnhausen) an acknowledged expert in tuning and building 1911s. I have rebuilt the ramp on several 1911s that the owner's replaced the extractor without tuning and proceeded to grind the feed ramp trying to make them feed. That then entails welding up the ramp and recutting it. There is no such thing as a "drop in" extractor they all require tuning. The extractor can be damaged and distorted because of folks dropping a round into the chamber and letting the slide slam forward forcing the extractor over the rim of the case. This practice is to be avoided, in my humble opinion all rounds loaded into the chamber of a 1911 should be fed from the magazine.
Doug M.
Member
The "tiers" of SOCOM units are a way of roughly describing their capability. I am not a vet, so won't claim to be sure, but my understanding is that Delta, Green Berets, and DevGru are tier one. Rangers, though highly capable, are tier 2, but don't hold me to that. IIRC, the AF has a pretty competent unit (I think their main duty is complicated rescue operations, and the Marines are dismantling theirs as it does not give enough value in added capability for the cost. Delta is interesting in that theoretically, they can take candidates from any branch.
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Thank you for the explanation. I don't know what a SOCOM is either and don't really need to know as I will assume it's something along the lines of what you have already explained. My needs and expectations aren't as demanding and formidable as those of true warriors, so lesser tools, etc. will probably be more than 100% adequate for my purposes. For many of the Internet combat aspirants, they likely have a "need" for what the real warriors use.
Doug M.
Member
Special Operations Command, which as I recall came into existence as a result of the coordination problems at Desert One in ....1980.. Some years back I did some work with a retired 2 star from there when one of his adult kids got in trouble. His world was nothing like that of us mere mortals. Military intel observers in the OR when he had shoulder surgery; another (active) general officer overseas had a secure communications unit sent to his hotel and woke him up to consult.
Almost. The failed Iran hostage rescue mission in 1980 was the impetus, and Congress authorized standup of SOCOM in 1987. The HQ is at MacDill AFB.
Never confuse SOCOM with SOUTHCOM.
