New to me OSS Victory

[Historian13]

I recently bought this Victory and have been fortunate enough to confirm its OSS history. It has the usual markings (and lack thereof) which set it apart, and I purchased a S&W letter to be sure. While I'm still waiting to receive the actual letter, I was told it shipped December 30th, 1943 to Rosslyn. I've been looking for an OSS Victory for a good while and I'm still a little dumbstruck I snagged this one, and wanted to share it with you guys.

The downsides to it are I believe it's been blued and has replacement grips. Otherwise though the serial matches on the butt, cylinder, and barrel. Interestingly, I don't see any import marks or markings typical of occupation use such as German or Chinese lettering. I'm interpreting this to mean it was carried home by someone, perhaps the individual it was issued to, versus being recirculated into military use, but I'll defer to the experts here if I'm mistaken.

The bluing itself appears fairly old as well, with noticeable wear around the grip, cylinder, and top straps, indicating it's been carried quite a bit since its touch up. That being said it locks up well with good timing.

I've since purchased a set of correct grips, and have been swinging back and forth about refinishing it to its issued finish. I'm also looking at picking up Pate's book on US secondary handguns in WW2 to deepen my knowledge of this revolver, and have been trying to figure out who would've been issued them in the OSS. If anyone has some information there I'd be very interested to hear it.

 

[Spurdann]

It is obvious that it has been refinished, I would throw correct stocks on it and shoot it until the current finish is gone, then I would consider a refinish.

 

[Retired W4]

Charles Pate's book is highly recommended for your research. Many Navy contract guns were diverted to OSS with no property marks inspection or acceptance marks. Rosslyn, Oakland and other destinations are listed.

 

[DWalt]

I have not seen an explanation of the meaning of the W stamp on the butt. Some say it stands for War Department. Others say it indicates a specific contract. Pate is not helpful in explaining it. But other OSS Victories also have the W butt stamp. Why would you ever want to do another refinish? I would definitely leave it exactly as-is. Pate mentions one OSS Victory, SN V498607 which was shipped to Rosslyn on 12/30/43. That is close to yours. It ended up in Bavarian police service during the postwar occupation period. There are other OSS Victories having nearby SNs to yours which shipped to Rosslyn in late December 1943.

 

[RM Vivas]

Myself and a couple other fellows were watching that gun. I passed because of the re-finish, but for the price, it makes a great placeholder AND shooter!

Best,
RM Vivas

 

[Historian13]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I can't seem to find it at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the original finish (military midnight black, black magic, etc) is still made today, correct? Part of me wants it to look more like how it would've at the time, but I'm also torn because of the possibility it being refinished is tied back to its original use. If the guy who carried it brought it home and decided to spruce it up as a carry gun then I'd want to preserve that part of its history as well.

It's funny you mention that, RM VIVAS. I saw it get listed and figured out what it is pretty quickly (thanks to the research on this site), and tried not to hold my breath for about 2 weeks while the listing ticked down. The last day I saw that the serial was added to the database as "Probable OSS" and braced myself for a potential bidding war, but was shocked when it didn't appear. Even with the blue job, I figure it's still worth a lot more than I paid for it, particularly with its lack of post occupation markings, and I'd prefer to keep it as a display piece. I have a severely pitted Navy pilot's Victory for shooting

 

[Retired W4]

I have not seen an explanation of the meaning of the W stamp on the butt. Some say it stands for War Department. Others say it indicates a specific contract. Pate is not helpful in explaining it. But other OSS Victories also have the W butt stamp. Why would you ever want to do another refinish? I would definitely leave it exactly as-is. Pate mentions one OSS Victory, SN V498607 which was shipped to Rosslyn on 12/30/43. That is close to yours. It ended up in Bavarian police service during the postwar occupation period. There are other OSS Victories having nearby SNs to yours which shipped to Rosslyn in late December 1943.

I know for fact that the side ways W does not always indicate OSS issue. Mine with the W was shipped to the IL State AG (Army NG). It's too bad Pate did not go into the subject a little deeper.

 

[hsguy]

He is a post I made years ago about an interesting OSS shipped Victory.
Thread 'A Well-Traveled Victory'
https://smith-wessonforum.com/threads/a-well-traveled-victory.272434/

 

[kwill1911]

I know for fact that the side ways W does not always indicate OSS issue. Mine with the W was shipped to the IL State AG (Army NG). It's too bad Pate did not go into the subject a little deeper.

But I bet yours also has an Ordnance Insignia (flaming bomb) on the butt, as well, right?

 

[RM Vivas]

The funny thing about the OSS guns is that they are remarkably difficult to discern from run-of-the-mill Victory revolvers.

There is a Victory up for auction right now that has some post-war engraving to it but if one looks very closely, under the engraving you can see the W on the butt, lack of US Property stamps on the top of the frame and the other various hallmarks of an OSS gun.

Someone will but it for the engraving never knowing that its an ex-OSS piece.

Best,
RM Vivas

 

[DWalt]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I can't seem to find it at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the original finish (military midnight black, black magic, etc) is still made today, correct? Part of me wants it to look more like how it would've at the time, but I'm also torn because of the possibility it being refinished is tied back to its original use. If the guy who carried it brought it home and decided to spruce it up as a carry gun then I'd want to preserve that part of its history as well.

It's funny you mention that, RM VIVAS. I saw it get listed and figured out what it is pretty quickly (thanks to the research on this site), and tried not to hold my breath for about 2 weeks while the listing ticked down. The last day I saw that the serial was added to the database as "Probable OSS" and braced myself for a potential bidding war, but was shocked when it didn't appear. Even with the blue job, I figure it's still worth a lot more than I paid for it, particularly with its lack of post occupation markings, and I'd prefer to keep it as a display piece. I have a severely pitted Navy pilot's Victory for shooting

Yes, Black Magic (a trade name) is still available and used today, from the Hubbard-Hall Company (see below). Black Magic is much the same as the hot dip oxide bluing process commonly used on guns today. There are several other sellers of similar bluing salts available from vendors such as Brownell's. The 1942 Milspec finish on WWII Victories was a beadblast (I think with 120 grit) followed by a dip in Black Magic. I have finished many guns that way myself, simple and quick if you have a bead blast cabinet and bluing tanks. It is not unusual to find some references stating that Victories were Parkerized, even by those who should certainly know better, but that is incorrect. However there were a few Victories (not military) that were factory Parkerized. If you really do want to refinish your revolver like it was done by S&W, it may be possible to find a local gunsmith with bluing tanks and a bead blast cabinet to do it. No tedious and expensive buffing and polishing needed. https://www.hubbardhall.com/proof/knowledge-center/black-magic-science-behind-magic

 

[RM Vivas]

Yes, Black Magic (a trade name) is still available and used today, from the Hubbard-Hall Company (see below). Black Magic is much the same as the hot dip oxide bluing process commonly used on guns today. There are several other sellers of similar bluing salts available from vendors such as Brownell's. The Milspec finish on WWII Victories was a beadblast (I think with 120 grit) followed by a dip in Black Magic. I have finished many guns that way myself, simple and quick if you have a bead blast cabinet and bluing tanks. It is not unusual to find some references stating that Victories were Parkerized, even by those who should know better, but that is incorrect. However there were a few Victories (not military) that were factory Parkerized. If you do really want to refinish your revolver like it was done by S&W, it may be possible to find a local gunsmith with bluing tanks and a bead blast cabinet to do it. No tedious and expensive buffing and polishing needed. https://www.hubbardhall.com/proof/knowledge-center/black-magic-science-behind-magic

I have had the opportunity to review a large number of DSC shipping invoices. One of the things I've observed is that early on in addition to listing how many guns were going to a specific destination, the type of finish on the gun was also notated.

There are numerous instances of guns being marked on the invoice as parkerized. Whether or not this is accurate, is another question. Just like today, many people back then may have associated any matte finish on a gun as being Parkerizing, when in fact it was a black magic or a simple phosphate finish.

I did think it very odd that an effort was put into noting what kind of finish was on the guns. Almost always, emphasis on almost, the notation was hand written on an otherwise typed invoice. It is possible that some guns were parkerized in the classic sense. I did notice a number of guns were labeled as blued, and I would have to double check, but I think a couple invoices did specifically mention black magic. I have to go back and check those.

Best,
RM Vivas

 

[DWalt]

Somewhere here was once posted an image of the 1942 Army Ordnance letter specifying S&W use a bead blasted and Black Magic revolver finish. It specified Black Magic by name. Maybe someone can find it. I have seen it several times.

 

[gunbarrel]

According to Ordnance Guy (Charlie Flick) in his subject presentation at the June 2024 SWCA Annual Symposium, the four (4) keys to identification of a OSS shipped .38 Special Victory Model are:

1. The butt MUST display a W mark
2. The butt MUST NOT display an Ordnance Bomb mark
3. The left top strap must.have NO MARKINGS
4. The revolver MUST display a P proof mark on the upper left frame forward of the hammer

 

[kwill1911]

I wrote an extensive article about the finish on Victory Models for the S&WCA Journal. There was a small run of Parkerized guns for the DSC. All others were finished with sandblast/Black Magic. I reproduced the documents for that article. In spite of the record being clear, letters have used a dozen different terms--Black Magic, Parkerized, military, midnight black and other variations thereof. I can't find any of those terms (except the first two) in S&W or Ordnance documents.

 

[Retired W4]

But I bet yours also has an Ordnance Insignia (flaming bomb) on the butt, as well, right?

Yes, the flaming bomb and property mark is the give away...not OSS. Spooks and their sterile things. Deniability counts for a lot.

In checking Dr. John Brunner's book, OSS Weapons II, there is very little reference to the Victory Model. Brunner was actually in OSS in China during WW II and his book is a pretty interesting read. I wish he had gone into more detail on the S&W 38 M&P.

 

[kwill1911]

John was a bit quirky. His book, as good as it is, didn't do justice to any of the standard handguns the OSS used. They had over 50,000 M1911A1 pistols.

 

[DWalt]

Pictures I have seen of verified OSS Victories do have the W butt stamping, and apparently at least one non-OSS revolver also does. So we are back to the mystery of what the W stamping indicates. At least to me, it does not look like a stamp that would have been applied by S&W. Maybe done by an OSS inspector named Willy?

 

[kwill1911]

The W was also applied to some DSC guns, especially those going to the US Maritime Commission, but those are the ones with the Ordnance inspection in addition to the W. The Ordnance Department, as a function of the Army, did not consider the OSS to be "military" so they didn't inspect/accept the Victory Models going to them.

 

[gunbarrel]

I think the inspector's "W" stamp's last name was "Walt"

BTW, I have always liked your Avatar. This is Gunbarrel Herbie.