+P Through a Model 12: THE TEST...is done!!!!
- Thread starter Osprey
- Start date
lefty lar,
Thank you for sharing your experience. It seems to be generally felt by folks around here, and probably at S&W as well, that cracking of the frame has to do with initial dimensions or torque applied in seating the barrel. This is also seen, less frequently, I believe, with aluminum J-frames. I can't say for sure, but it would appear that if a Model 12 can survive childbirth and adolescence with standard-pressure rounds, it can do so with +P rounds.
Many thanks to Osprey for risking his treasured Model 12 to be able to make a clear factual statement about it and +P ammo.
520
Thank you for sharing your experience. It seems to be generally felt by folks around here, and probably at S&W as well, that cracking of the frame has to do with initial dimensions or torque applied in seating the barrel. This is also seen, less frequently, I believe, with aluminum J-frames. I can't say for sure, but it would appear that if a Model 12 can survive childbirth and adolescence with standard-pressure rounds, it can do so with +P rounds.
Many thanks to Osprey for risking his treasured Model 12 to be able to make a clear factual statement about it and +P ammo.
520
I checked it again now that I'm home. There is a "line" above the B/C gap that looks like it had some pitting. It did not extend across the entire width of the topstrap. What little that's there is so faint that I really couldn't tell it was there until I dragged the point of a pin across the line.
Hardly noticeable....
...and keep in mind, that in addition to the +P rounds, I also ran a 160 rounds of standard pressure fodder through the gun AND I have no idea who shot what through it prior to my purchasing it in September of 2003. After the 1182 rounds I put through it, plus the "unknown," I don't feel that the light "flame cut" is anything to worry about.
....Osprey
I wanted to reply to this with two comments from other members. The first relates directly to the quote, the second, not so much, but I think it still important.
Back on page two of this topic, budrichard shared the following to describe what I believe to be the risk of shooting +P through an M12.
"In terms of Hazards Analysis, this type would be termed: Low Probability, High Consequence, sort of like flying on an airplane."
I think this hits the mark perfectly. Yes, this test kind of proves the "low probability" portion of the hazard. This is especially true of the "average" user who is probably going to shoot 50-100 rounds of standard pressure .38 for every 12-18 rounds of +P. If the M12 owner shoots their gun once a month and averages 15 +P rounds per session (12 one session, 18 the next, then 12, 18...that averages out to 15), it will take them 5 1/2 years to shoot 1,000 +P rounds. This is what I considered to be "normal use."
HOWEVER...
...should "we" be wrong about this, or your particular M12 ends up being an exception, the consequences are pretty high...YOU end up with a gun thats only good as paper weight or a bookend. If your M12 frame cracks, breaks, melts, whatever...your M12 probably won't get repaired. To me, that's too high a consequence!!!!
I was happy to risk one of my M12s for the sake of science and pragmatic commentary, but now that this test is behind me, I will NOT be shooting +Ps through my M12.
The other comment I wanted to make was from something that Saxon Pig (SP) wrote. To paraphrase, SP refers to modern day +P ammo as "Plus Zero" and he has backed these back-handed comments with quite a bit of good data showing that before +P became commercially available +P ammo, it was considerably more powerful. The stuff I shot was all off the shelf commercially available stuff that obviously didn't have enough power to blow up a gun that was prohibited from +P use; not even after 1,000 rounds of the stuff.
SP, you were right all along....
Osprey
Erich
Member
Amen, brother!
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I have always maintained that the fears regarding factory +P were based on the notion that this is a warm load. It is not. Factory +P is actually fairly mild, IMO.
I would have absolutely ZERO concern about shooting +P through ANY Colt or S&W made after 1930 (I use that date due to my personal concerns over the state of metal tempering back then but I freely admit that I may be overly cautious).
To those who want to dismiss testing as irrelevant, I disagree. I have formal, graduate-level training and experience in scientific research and testing is indeed useful. Of course testing can't guarantee similar results but a random sample subjected to testing can give us an idea of what to expect. To disregard testing means cars are unsafe since only a very small percentage undergo safety crash tests. Nonsense. Seeing how 10 particular items do in testing can give us info. Even one item can help.
In this test we have learned that a random M12 revolver digested 1,000+ rounds of +P without effect. Expectations are that other similar revolvers would do the same.
But this is old hat. I mentioned Elmer Keith writing in 1955 of firing 38/44 loads through an alloy Chief's Special. If the 158/1140 load through an alloy J frame didn't cause any harm how could the 125/925 in a K frame possibly do damage?
On the guns with cracked frames, I hear of just as many cracked frames from using standard ammo as I do from using +P. I am convinced that these were cases of defective guns. Alloy is harder to work with than steel and you will have a higher percentage of defective guns when they are made of aluminum.
I know we are all weary of the never ending discussion and that some will never believe +P is not harmful no matter what evidence is offered. I was convinced long ago that +P is a relatively mild load and it's irrational hype driving the fear and misconceptions.
I would have absolutely ZERO concern about shooting +P through ANY Colt or S&W made after 1930 (I use that date due to my personal concerns over the state of metal tempering back then but I freely admit that I may be overly cautious).
To those who want to dismiss testing as irrelevant, I disagree. I have formal, graduate-level training and experience in scientific research and testing is indeed useful. Of course testing can't guarantee similar results but a random sample subjected to testing can give us an idea of what to expect. To disregard testing means cars are unsafe since only a very small percentage undergo safety crash tests. Nonsense. Seeing how 10 particular items do in testing can give us info. Even one item can help.
In this test we have learned that a random M12 revolver digested 1,000+ rounds of +P without effect. Expectations are that other similar revolvers would do the same.
But this is old hat. I mentioned Elmer Keith writing in 1955 of firing 38/44 loads through an alloy Chief's Special. If the 158/1140 load through an alloy J frame didn't cause any harm how could the 125/925 in a K frame possibly do damage?
On the guns with cracked frames, I hear of just as many cracked frames from using standard ammo as I do from using +P. I am convinced that these were cases of defective guns. Alloy is harder to work with than steel and you will have a higher percentage of defective guns when they are made of aluminum.
I know we are all weary of the never ending discussion and that some will never believe +P is not harmful no matter what evidence is offered. I was convinced long ago that +P is a relatively mild load and it's irrational hype driving the fear and misconceptions.
520, as you stated that is what the S&W person said. Our 12 probably was just torqued too much when it was assembled. It cracked right beneath where the bottom of the barrel goes into the frame. Just like cars. One person can get a lemon from the factory & another guy can get a jewel. I think it could be that monday thing.
I guess everyone has to decide for themselves what they want to put thru their gun & what can happen or not. Osprey's tests sure prove that.
Lefty Lar
I guess everyone has to decide for themselves what they want to put thru their gun & what can happen or not. Osprey's tests sure prove that.
Lefty Lar
Spotteddog
Member
I thank the gentleman!
It's been an interesting read throughout....
It's been an interesting read throughout....
stiab
US Veteran
Not much info there. How do you know it did not cause any harm? How many rounds, etc.? Just curious...
Is this not a narrowing of your previous opinion, which IIRC was pre-war instead of after 1930?
NOTICE!
Probably some time this weekend, I'm going to stop "floating" this topic. With that, this topic will start working its way down the forum and eventually will disappear. For these reasons, I wanted to post this reminder that if you want any of the information in this topic, you might want to copy and paste it into some format that you personally control and protect.</span>
Since I "drafted" all of my updates (at least in The Log section on page 1), I have copy of The Test (data) in a MSWord doc, but NOT the entire content of this 12 page (currently) topic.
Be advised.... Osprey
Probably some time this weekend, I'm going to stop "floating" this topic. With that, this topic will start working its way down the forum and eventually will disappear. For these reasons, I wanted to post this reminder that if you want any of the information in this topic, you might want to copy and paste it into some format that you personally control and protect.</span>
Since I "drafted" all of my updates (at least in The Log section on page 1), I have copy of The Test (data) in a MSWord doc, but NOT the entire content of this 12 page (currently) topic.
Be advised.... Osprey
big50_1
Member
Osprey-Good job, it was a very interesting thread. I had a mdl. 37 3" at one time and got rid of it circa 1981 because I thought it too fragile. Should have had patience that the right info would come along.
Erich
Member
Oh, if you want to talk hot loads in alloy J-frames, there are some guys here who can talk. You know THE LOAD that got so much discussion when I mentioned it (from Speer # 8)? Well it turns out that a 158-grain bullet will do almost 1100 fps from a 1 7/8" alloy-framed J-frame .38 Special.
I know that at least one of our members has rocketed over 100 rounds of this through his alloy J-gun. Me, I haven't done so many - hand hurts too much and I've no real need for it. But those Js with their offset cylinder notches can take a hot load - and the Aluminum frames seem to hold up as well as Osprey's did.
I know that at least one of our members has rocketed over 100 rounds of this through his alloy J-gun. Me, I haven't done so many - hand hurts too much and I've no real need for it. But those Js with their offset cylinder notches can take a hot load - and the Aluminum frames seem to hold up as well as Osprey's did.
stiab
US Veteran
I believe it, but of course the velocity would not be affected by whether the gun had an alloy or steel frame. I got 901 avg. fps from a 1 7/8 inch M60 from 158 grain Winchester FACTORY loads, so there is no telling what you could push those reloads to.
Erich
Member
I was just making the point that the alloy Js appear to hold up decently to really hot loads.
Spotteddog
Member
Sure been my experience. At least so far?
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