Cross Draw on Westerns

jimmyj · May 12, 2015

Hi:
I have started to take notice on Western Movies (new and old) that westerners (cowboys) carried "Cross Draw" instead of the "Hollywood Fast Draw" type holster ?

NYlakesider · May 12, 2015

jimmyj said:
Hi:
I have started to take notice on Western Movies (new and old) that westerners (cowboys) carried "Cross Draw" instead of the "Hollywood Fast Draw" type holster ?

Considering that many fought in the Civil War (on both sides) and cross draw was the way the Calvary operated back then, this could be a reasonably accurate depiction. Of course when does TV or the movies strive for real facts?

Watchdog · May 12, 2015

NYlakesider said:
Of course when does TV or the movies strive for real facts?

The Wild Bunch looked pretty accurate and true to life to me.

THE PILGRIM · May 12, 2015

Here's legendary NM Lawman, Fred Lambert.
While serving as a NM Mounted Policeman, he Was trying to arrest a man for taking alcohol onto an Indian Reservation.
The bootlegger got away so Fred arrested the liquor carrying horse, a Roan.
Fred seems to like his cross draw almost in front.

Camster · May 12, 2015

NYlakesider said:
Considering that many fought in the Civil War (on both sides) and cross draw was the way the Calvary operated back then, this could be a reasonably accurate depiction. Of course when does TV or the movies strive for real facts?

I forget if it was tv show or a movie,but I recall one western where a Marlin 336 filled the role of an early gun.Couldn't they find a Winchester 1892 or 1894 for that 1870-1880's 's scenario,as most did? LOL

BAM-BAM · May 12, 2015

A lot of the "real" guns in the west had 5 1/2 to 71/2 inch barrels..... so the same reasons I carry my 6" L-frames cross-draw apply to the early west

dougb1946 · May 12, 2015

Cowboys were basically itinerant farm workers. Guns were what ever they could afford or find. Holsters were pouches to carry a gun. You pull it when you thought you might need it, not at the last second. Very few gunfights were the walk up the street look him in the eye and draw and shoot from the hip at 40 paces you see on TV. Most cowboys could not afford to practice enough to be fast and accurate. Bill Hickok was an aberration. He was a gun fighter and did practice both the draw and the shoot.. Most gun fights were drink inspired and were as dangerous to bystanders as participants.(so much for "an armed society is a polite society").

The made for TV show "Appalosa" has a good depiction of a walk up gun fight. Both parties had the guns in their hands. There is a telling of one gun fight in a bar-very close range- where both shooters emptied their guns at each other, reloaded, emptied, then decided to get some more drinks.

Serious gunners probably carried several guns, tucking them in where ever they were easy to get to and not likely to fall off.

Watched one WW2 movie where submarine born raiding party was loaded into boats while carrying Winchester 94s. A lot of the early photos were staged with guns, knives, clothing provided by the photographer.

LoboGunLeather · May 12, 2015

What Hollywood has depicted as western holsters and belts since the 1950's has been much less than authentic. The low-slung buscadero-style rigs are pretty much a Hollywood invention. More recent productions seem to have become a bit more attuned to historical accuracy, rather than glitzy styles.

The majority of revolvers in use during the latter half of the 19th Century were typically large-framed and had long barrels (1851 and 1860 Colts, Remington New Army, Colt Single Action Army, Remington 1875 and 1890, Smith & Wesson top-breaks like the Schofield and Russian models, not to mention the nearly countless copies and counterfeits made during that period). Transportation was via horseback, or seated in a wagon, etc, for which cross-draw provides some advantages in comfort, particularly with the longer barreled revolvers. Cross-draw can allow for ready use of the revolver with either hand as well.

Holster tended to be deeper, covering more of the revolver both to aid in retention and to better protect the piece. When worn on the strong side this type of holster requires a much higher lift of the arm during the draw and contortions of the shoulder, wrist, and elbow in order to get the longer-barreled revolvers to clear the holster. So cross-draw can also provide some advantage in accessibility.

Mens clothing of the period usually featured trousers with much higher rise than today's norm, with waistband above the navel whereas today we mostly wear trousers at the hips and below the navel. Suspenders (braces, galluses, whatever you want to call them) were the norm, and the gun belt was usually worn at the level of or a bit lower than today's trouser belts. Attachment of the holster to the belt was typically a loose loop or slots that allowed the holstered revolver to shift around quite a bit.

Many photographs and other illustrations of the period show people carrying cross-draw. Some show strong-side rigs, but carry near the appendix position.

Cross-draw holsters were very common for sportsmen, outdoorsmen, and law enforcement in the US well into the middle of the 20th Century.

Horn · May 12, 2015

Old Hollywood and Real life

jimmyj said:
Hi:
I have started to take notice on Western Movies (new and old) that westerners (cowboys) carried "Cross Draw" instead of the "Hollywood Fast Draw" type holster ?

As noted by the other posters___Hollywood just wasn't the way it was. Some recent westerns have been closer to being authentic in dress and the way pistols were carried. And__as one noted the walking down Main Street and fast drawing and firing just didn't happen.
The cross draw is still a comfortable carry method and easy to use when driving, sleeping in a sleeping bag or walking in the forest.
I recently saw one film where the detective actually carried an ivory handled 1911 in a cross draw. It wasn't "concealed".
Detectives are policemen, not under cover operations. We not only carried a pistol but handcuffs, a couple extra magazines and a smallish flashlight. One clothing store in town did accommodate us
by allowing a next size up for our suit coats off the rack__then tailored them for us__no extra charge. That still didn't "conceal"
everything.
Actually the F.B.I. cant seemed more to keep the pistol sort of hidden when the agents were talking to someone in their home,
I think so not to "offend". Its not a real good way to pack since drawing puts strain on wrist, elbow and shoulder.
As a working detective I found cross draw more comfortable__Both 1911 and a S&W Model 39.
Today I use appendix carry (Wasn't any such holsters back then)
and a Comp-Tac Neutral Gladiator, a N82 Pro (Summer/ T-shirt
and shorts and a Sticky__all at the appendix carry.
I agree with the other posters about most of the cowboys were't gunman__but most deadly with a rifle.
In the archives about one of the shoot outs in a Kansas cowtown
(saloons were smaller than Hollywood shows them, usual) there was like sixty shots fired between two trail outfits. The only casualty was the cat that normally was asleep on the piano.
A lot of the well known outlaws carried lead in several areas of their bodies. I've often thought "very old ammo" maybe didn't penetrate well?
G'luck and carry what's comfortable for you.

rayban · May 24, 2015

Cross draw made it much easier and faster access while horseback....

Gamecock · May 24, 2015

I prefer crossdraw when afield. Carrying a gun as a tool, in case I need it. Being right handed, crossdraw keeps it out of my way. I can see that for cowboys, too.

I don't like it for concealed carry, because the butt sticks way out. At least with the holsters I have.

Iggy · May 24, 2015

Everyday cowhands often left their handguns in the chuck wagon or bunkhouse.

If you've ever been on the hurricane deck of an old bronc when he blowed up, you know that a gun belt and side arm could plumb beat you to death.

By the same token if you was on the ground and wrasslein' calves or fixin' that dammed bob wire fence, a gun hangin' out there on your hip was a literal pain in the butt.

Now goin' to town for a night of hoorahin' the city slickers and gittin' your picture took was a whole 'nuther deal.

Gamecock · May 24, 2015

Iggy said:
Everyday cowhands often left their handguns in the chuck wagon or bunkhouse.

I don't know that they actually had handguns. I have read that farmers on the plains generally had one gun - not pistol, not a rifle, but a shotgun.

Cowboys could have been different than farmers. Personal protection was probably more important than bagging game.

federali · May 24, 2015

My Two cents

I've been a model and prototype railroad enthusiast my entire life. I'm also a history buff. I've seen thousands of authentic photographs taken in the American west during the 19th century. One glaring difference between these photos and the west as depicted on television was that in the photos, NO ONE was wearing a gun. The only guns you actually saw were those few photos that including members of the military and western lawmen. The notion that everybody carried a gun is totally wrong.

Absalom · May 24, 2015

If you take some time looking through books heavy on historical photography, like the Time-Life series "The Old West", which has volumes on cowboys, ranchers, townspeople, miners, etc. and is full of excellent large reproduced photos, you'll notice very few if any people carrying visible handguns in any holster, cross draw or else. A nice example, the famous photo of the "Dodge City Peace Commission" from 1883 including Wyatt Earp and Bat Masterson, is attached below.

As someone else already noted, most guns in posed portraits were photographer's props and placed where they'd show up most advantageously in the picture, so drawing conclusions as to how people commonly carried in real life is iffy.

As I've had occasion to point out in another thread before, if you look at actual production numbers, the most popular personal sidearms in America were not the long-barreled .44 and .45 caliber horse pistols (which according to some sources cowboys tended to carry in a saddlebag, not on the belt), but small pocket revolvers in unimpressive calibers that could be tucked in a coat or pant pocket. There were a gazillion manufacturers churning these out, usually topbreaks in .32 and .38 calibers. And one should remember that the most-produced Colt of the cap-and-ball era was not the big .44 Army or the iconic .36 Navy model of Wild Bill Hickok fame, but the little .31 Colt Pocket 1849, even though it did not have the big government contracts of the large revolvers to boost its production numbers. That gives a clear picture of what the civilian market was after.

P.S. Just came across a nice picture showing handguns "carried cross-draw" which I think illustrates my point about props

.

CajunBass · May 24, 2015

The "Hollywood Holster" seems to be full of contradictions.

First it hangs low for a quick draw, often at about a 45 degree angle across the wearers body, leaving so much slack in the belt that you're going to come up with a "handfull of everthing" as Bill Jordan put it,...so it needs a tie down thong around the leg to keep it in place.

It's cut away to allow a fast draw (and a good shot of the gun on camera), so it needs a hammer thong to keep the gun in the holster, which needs to be removed before you can quick draw.

Iggy · May 24, 2015

Gamecock said:
I don't know that they actually had handguns. I have read that farmers on the plains generally had one gun - not pistol, not a rifle, but a shotgun.

Cowboys could have been different than farmers. Personal protection was probably more important than bagging game.

Cowboys was different from sod bustin' plow boys.. Them thar was fightin' words.

Was still the same when I was in high school.

Even as late as the 40's and 50's, cowhands often had a handgun rig stuck down in the bottom of their bedroll.

I grew up with those old boys, and some of them were still durn handy with a side arm.

Bunkies

I carried a sidearm on long cattle drives, but I got rid of it quick for fencin', brandin', hayin' and all the other mundane duties that befell a workin' cowhand.

Elmer Keith told of saving his life one time by drawing and shooting a horse in the head that was draggin' him along by a foot caught in a stirrup. Now I can tell you that if he was wearin' a gun belt, it was up around his arm pits and beatin' him around the head. He din't have a prayer of drawing that gun and firing it while bouncin' on his back and duckin' flyin' hooves. That just flat din't happen.
That bein' said, I believed ever' thing ol Elmer said. I believed some of it was the truth and some of it wasn't, but I believed him.

Neumann · May 24, 2015

Wild Bill Hickok wore cross draw holsters but used a reverse draw (hand on same side as holster, with a half twist). The .45 Colt cartridge came out in 1873, with a balloon case that held 40 grains of black powder. That sent a 250 grain bullet on its way at 900+ fps. That's hotter than you get in a SAA clone with smokeless powder, if you value your hide.

Hickok used .36 Navy revolvers, muzzle loading cap and ball.

WR Moore · May 24, 2015

Gotta go along with the fact that honest to old west holsters didn't look anything like what has been seen on the silver or living room screen. Holsters of them thar days were pretty much leather buckets meant to protect the gun and keep it with you.

Many of the more notable types tended to find other ways to carry their hardware. Hickhock liked his sash, JW Hardin his vest, a Texas gent (old timers kicking in-Dallas Stodenmeyer?) leather lined pockets and another Texas dude had a double headed hammer screw that fit a plate on his belt.

I recall Ol Elmer writing several times that he carried his working gun (Colt .45) in a chaps pocket. I'd never known chaps had pockets. Do/did they?

Iggy · May 24, 2015

I recall Ol Elmer writing several times that he carried his working gun (Colt .45) in a chaps pocket. I'd never known chaps had pockets. Do/did they?

I have seen them with pockets, I never had them on mine. Due to the way most chaps ride when you're wearing them, I would think the pockets would be too low on your leg to be comfortable with anything in them, and smart like heck if you got kicked there.

Cross Draw on Westerns

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