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  #1  
Old 08-28-2015, 10:43 AM
HarrishMasher HarrishMasher is offline
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Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed! Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed! Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed! Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed! Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed!  
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Default Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed!

I never thought it was possible to carry a 4" N Frame concealed. But it is. The Galco Combat Master, a very high ride holster, does an amazing job.

I am wearing shorts and a tank top and my 4" 22 Thunder Ranch 45acp just disappears and is totally comfortable. I wore it all day yesterday without a single hitch. I live in South Florida and I wear shorts and a tank or T-Shirt 365 days a year. (Yes even to work. My workplace is very casual and gun friendly, because I am the owner

To my shock and awe, given how high riding this holster is, the gun does not tilt out away from my body at all. It rides super tight!

I am really amazed how comfortable this holster is and how easy it conceals this huge and heavy gun with shorts and a tank top! I never thought this was possible. I am beyond impressed.

This is Galco Combat Master CM126B (Black) or CM126 (Tan). It is designed for a S&W 28, 327, 329. It fits my 22 Thunder Ranch perfectly, which has almost the same shape and contour of the model 28.
COMBAT MASTER BELT HOLSTER: Holsters & Ammo Carriers: Belt Holsters at Galco

Unfortunately they don't make this model for my 7 shot 586 L Comp 3" or my 65 Lady Smith 3". So I ordered the high ride holster from Mernickle for those, it is the PS6 series. Same ride height. We will see how those work out in a few weeks.
Mernickle Custom Holsters - Performance Series








Last edited by HarrishMasher; 08-28-2015 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 08-28-2015, 10:47 AM
Kid44 Kid44 is offline
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A tank top? Seriously?
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Old 08-28-2015, 11:03 AM
HarrishMasher HarrishMasher is offline
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A tank top? Seriously?
It is a looser tank, not a tight muscle tank. But yes a tank top. Completely disappears. My main carry is an FN Five Seven (4.8" barrel) that I carry IWB. No problem concealing it with the same tank top and any of my looser t shirts. I generally wear a short sleeve button up shirt. I can conceal anything with those type of shirts.

Can't tell at all. Not from any angle. Even when I bend over because it rides so high and tight to my body.




Last edited by HarrishMasher; 08-28-2015 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 08-28-2015, 11:24 AM
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A tank top? Seriously?
Problem? I live in a beach town, and along with shorts and flip flops, I wear them all the time!

As for the holster, I discovered the Galco CM a few years ago, and now have a model for each of my carry guns. Well, all except my Ruger SRH, that gets carried in a Simply Rugged Soudough Pancake.

Interestingly, the first one I bought I found at a gun store in the used bin, and it was marked for a J frame. My Model 36 didn't seem to fit correctly, so I looked up the number on the back, and it was for a Colt DS. I put it in my holster box and forgot about it. Then, a couple years ago I lucked into a really nice 3rd issue DS, and now it's my daily holster.
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Old 08-28-2015, 11:30 AM
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Nice! I have CC'ed a 5" N frame, but in a shoulder holster and under a loose vest. Vests are seriously limiting unless you want to look like Crocodile Dundee everywhere you go.
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Old 08-28-2015, 11:41 AM
HarrishMasher HarrishMasher is offline
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Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed! Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed! Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed! Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed! Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed!  
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Nice! I have CC'ed a 5" N frame, but in a shoulder holster and under a loose vest. Vests are seriously limiting unless you want to look like Crocodile Dundee everywhere you go.
LOL. Yeah not a good look!
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Old 08-28-2015, 11:41 AM
regalsc regalsc is offline
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I think I would like that holster for my 325pd 4". I assume it accommodates a 1 3/4 belt? Not a bad price either. With my 325 at 25 oz empty it would be comfortable for me & my old back too.
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Old 08-28-2015, 11:51 AM
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I conceal carry my guns in a high-ride pancake style holster at 3:00 on my belt covered by an un-tucked shirt. My normal carry is a government size 1911. For remote rural carry, it is a Glock G20 SF 10mm or G35 .40 S&W. For woods carry, it is a 4" S&W 29-2 .44 magnum.
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Old 08-28-2015, 11:55 AM
HarrishMasher HarrishMasher is offline
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Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed! Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed! Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed! Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed! Finally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed!  
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Originally Posted by regalsc View Post
I think I would like that holster for my 325pd 4". I assume it accommodates a 1 3/4 belt? Not a bad price either. With my 325 at 25 oz empty it would be comfortable for me & my old back too.
It is cut for 1 3/4" belt. My belt is 1.5" there is a tiny bit of space to accommodate 1 3/4".
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Old 08-28-2015, 11:57 AM
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How tight do you have that belt? I have a 6 inch model 28 and that thing has some heft to it. I can just see my pants either hanging low to one side or cutting of circulation to my legs with tighten belt
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Old 08-28-2015, 11:58 AM
HarrishMasher HarrishMasher is offline
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Originally Posted by LimaCharlie View Post
I conceal carry my guns in a high-ride pancake style holster at 3:00 on my belt covered by an un-tucked shirt. My normal carry is a government size 1911. For remote rural carry, it is a Glock G20 SF 10mm or G35 .40 S&W. For woods carry, it is a 4" S&W 29-2 .44 magnum.
I actually have a Simply Rugged Pancake holster for my N Frames. It just does not ride high enough to conceal well. That's what inspired me to try the Galco. Well, actually it was the 22 Thunder Ranch I picked up last week that inspired the holster purchase. The 22 TR is screaming to be carried with it's thin profile barrel, combat sights, perfect balance, and fast reloading 45acp rounds on moon clips. I had to do her some justice and get her out to breath every once in a while by adding her to the carry rotation. Couldn't do it without the Galco.

Last edited by HarrishMasher; 08-28-2015 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 08-28-2015, 12:06 PM
HarrishMasher HarrishMasher is offline
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How tight do you have that belt? I have a 6 inch model 28 and that thing has some heft to it. I can just see my pants either hanging low to one side or cutting of circulation to my legs with tighten belt
No tighter than I do without the holster and gun on. Hole number 5 on the belt when I am carrying OWB or not carrying at all (which is basically never). Hole number 4 for IWB. I am lean and don't have a belly hanging over the belt, which I think helps.

I honestly don't even notice I am wearing it. My shorts don't droop the slightest on the gun side. I am used to carrying a large gun IWB everyday (FN Five Seven or 586 L Comp). The key is a quality carry belt. Not a belt from the mall. I have Tucker Gunleather carry belt that makes all carrying a breeze. To carry properly, a real gun belt with a stiff liner is a must.

This holster is really a dream. I am absolutely amazed. I have over 20 handguns and about 60 holsters for them. I have a lot of experience carrying guns of all shapes and sizes and have done a lot of experimenting. I have probably sold 40 holsters in the process that did not work for me. This set up is the real deal.

Last edited by HarrishMasher; 08-28-2015 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 08-28-2015, 12:46 PM
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I am lean and don't have a belly hanging over the belt, which I think helps.
You know,you just might be on to something there!
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Old 08-28-2015, 01:11 PM
Ranger514 Ranger514 is offline
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To the OP: I carry my 2-1/2" 66 in the Combat Master CM112. With the exception of adjustable rear sights and barrel length, I'm pretty sure your 65LS would fit in that holster with only the tip of the muzzle protruding slightly.
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Old 08-28-2015, 01:43 PM
HarrishMasher HarrishMasher is offline
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To the OP: I carry my 2-1/2" 66 in the Combat Master CM112. With the exception of adjustable rear sights and barrel length, I'm pretty sure your 65LS would fit in that holster with only the tip of the muzzle protruding slightly.
You are probably right. Had I not ordered the Mernickle holster, which is custom made to the 65 LS and the same price as the Galco, I would probably have gone that route. We will see how the Mernickle turns out. It is the exact same high ride design, so the results should be similar.
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Old 08-28-2015, 01:49 PM
dwever dwever is offline
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You're right they don't make the Combat Master for your L-Comp; but, for the 586 L Comp Galco makes an even more concealable Galco Silhouette High Ride, comfortable, and is the right barrel length, and easily handles the 586's 37 oz. weight. It conceals better than the Combat Master.

I have Galco Combat Masters for both my 627 and 1911. I have the Silhouette High Ride for my 627 and my 586 L-Comp.
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Old 08-28-2015, 02:55 PM
diyj98 diyj98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrishMasher View Post
I am lean and don't have a belly hanging over the belt, which I think helps.
Hey, hey, hey! No need to get personal! Actually I'm sure you're correct about the lack of belly. I'm just not sure I'll ever find out
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Old 08-28-2015, 03:29 PM
HarrishMasher HarrishMasher is offline
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You're right they don't make the Combat Master for your L-Comp; but, for the 586 L Comp Galco makes an even more concealable Galco Silhouette High Ride, comfortable, and is the right barrel length, and easily handles the 586's 37 oz. weight. It conceals better than the Combat Master.

I have Galco Combat Masters for both my 627 and 1911. I have the Silhouette High Ride for my 627 and my 586 L-Comp.
Yes I have seen it, but I don't do holsters that leave the barrel exposed. And that model holster leaves a lot exposed. I'm banging around all the time and need to protect the gun as much as possible.
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Old 08-28-2015, 05:00 PM
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Old 08-28-2015, 05:30 PM
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For many years I carried my 4" "N" frame in a Bianchi 5BH or the Safariland equivalent. I also had the Simply Rugged. All worked well for concealed carry. The Galco looks interesting but for my shoulder, it might carry too high and make the draw difficult.

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Old 08-28-2015, 07:57 PM
SeamasterSig SeamasterSig is offline
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I totally understand the shorts and t-shirt thing. There's a very good reason why that's the standard uniform in South Florida. I carry a 4" k-frame concealed in a pancake holster that sits maybe 1/2" lower than the OP's, judging by the photos. It's doable, but "dressing around the gun" can be pretty challenging when you're barely wearing any clothes to begin with
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Old 08-28-2015, 10:15 PM
HarrishMasher HarrishMasher is offline
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Did you do your tattoos yourself?
Not quite sure how to take that, but no, it was done by a tattoo artist in NYC who specializes in that kind of work. Done over a period of about 10 years starting in my late 30s.
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Old 08-28-2015, 10:17 PM
HarrishMasher HarrishMasher is offline
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I totally understand the shorts and t-shirt thing. There's a very good reason why that's the standard uniform in South Florida. I carry a 4" k-frame concealed in a pancake holster that sits maybe 1/2" lower than the OP's, judging by the photos. It's doable, but "dressing around the gun" can be pretty challenging when you're barely wearing any clothes to begin with
True, that's why I don't always carry that large of a gun. A J Frame comes in handy on some days. But generally I do carry a pretty large gun daily. I love the FN Five Seven because, while large, it only weighs 28 ozs fully loaded with 21 rounds of ammo. And those rounds exit the barrel at a devastating 2400 fps! Super accurate as well. Dime sized groups all day at 25 feet offhand. Also the cleanest running gun I have ever owned. After a few hundred rounds it is clean as a whistle inside. Crazy. If you have never shot one, you should.

But I love my wheel guns and make sure to work them into the rotation.


For those of you who are interested, here is what the FN Five Seven is capable of offhand at 25 feet.


Another typical group at 25 feet


My two Five Sevens:

Last edited by HarrishMasher; 08-28-2015 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 08-28-2015, 10:37 PM
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A quality belt is not option when carrying any sidearm, and clearly makes a tremendous difference here.
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Old 08-29-2015, 04:33 PM
Brasky Brasky is offline
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It seems like it would be an extremely slow draw with the gun riding that high
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Old 08-29-2015, 09:01 PM
HarrishMasher HarrishMasher is offline
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It seems like it would be an extremely slow draw with the gun riding that high
My thinking is I can't carry it concealed if it rides lower. So better to have it with me and risk a slightly slower draw, then not have it at all.

But honestly I have practiced drawing and it is not bad at all. With regular practice, it should not be an issue.
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Old 08-29-2015, 10:36 PM
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Did you do your tattoos yourself?
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot???
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Old 08-29-2015, 11:25 PM
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A Desantis works for me. Once I thinned out the grips it became my most comfortable carry.
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Old 08-29-2015, 11:55 PM
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Did you do your tattoos yourself?
Like reloading. You buy some equipment. Start slow. Get lots of advice online. Pray you don't mess up some small detail and lose an appendage.
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Old 08-31-2015, 04:10 AM
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I have carried OWB against raw skin on rare occasions but just be careful about rusting up a blued gun in short order as you start sweating on those hot days. Body salts and perspiration does not go well with blued firearms. Probably not the best for leather either. I always try to wear at least a thin tee shirt against skin, then another thin shirt to conceal. The tank top over bare skin might be OK in a well air conditioned environment and no physical exertion.

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  #31  
Old 08-31-2015, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by chief38 View Post
I have carried OWB against raw skin on rare occasions but just be careful about rusting up a blued gun in short order as you start sweating on those hot days. Body salts and perspiration does not go well with blued firearms. Probably not the best for leather either. I always try to wear at least a thin tee shirt against skin, then another thin shirt to conceal. The tank top over bare skin might be OK in a well air conditioned environment and no physical exertion.
With the Galco Combat Master no bluing is exposed. It has a sweat shield. The leather goes all the way up on the inside (the part of the holster that goes against your body). So I am not too worried about that. I also wipe my firearms down very regularly with an oiled cloth.
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Old 08-31-2015, 11:27 AM
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I've been carring most of my guns in basically the same holster from DeSantis...the Speed Scabbard. One thing I like about it over the GALCO is that it has wings that protect an adjustable rear sight from damage and ones clothes from hammer or sight abrasion...

Bob
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  #33  
Old 08-31-2015, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by hkcavalier View Post
Nice! I have CC'ed a 5" N frame, but in a shoulder holster and under a loose vest. Vests are seriously limiting unless you want to look like Crocodile Dundee everywhere you go.

And get shot first.
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  #34  
Old 09-01-2015, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by diyj98 View Post
Hey, hey, hey! No need to get personal! Actually I'm sure you're correct about the lack of belly. I'm just not sure I'll ever find out

Unfortunately for a lot of us, the space where the OP is concealing his gun is already occupied by love handles.

May was well hang a "No Vacancy" sign on my hipFinally...A Way To Carry a 4" N Frame Concealed!
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  #35  
Old 09-01-2015, 08:34 PM
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4" concealed no problem. I carried up to a 7 1/2" redhawk 44mag shoulder holstered. I picked up a ruger sbh and the 10 1/2" shoulder holster for it. During the summertime my redhawk 5 1/2"/44 was my wingman. During the wintertime the redhawk 7 1/2"/44 was my copilot.

For fun once I put my python in the shoulder holster. My snubbie ruger six 357 in my pants holster, my 1911 in my belt holster. You couldn't tell I was packing. But that was 40 years ago.

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  #36  
Old 09-02-2015, 05:57 PM
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I'm a pretty open minded guy but there's just too many cons vs. pros for me to carry an N-Frame concealed, especially for a self defense situation. The guns are big and heavy, even with the short barrels, excessive recoil and muzzle blast, over penetration not to mention being a bit harder to conceal than the smaller framed revolvers and automatics. I don't think anyone is nuts to carry the N-Frame, just have to wonder why.
If I lived in Alaska, Montana or Wyoming where I MIGHT encounter a grizzly bear I would reconsider, and even then concealment may not be needed. I just don't think any self defense situation involving people would justify an N-Frame, I am referring to the .41 and .44s.
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  #37  
Old 09-02-2015, 07:13 PM
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Vests are seriously limiting unless you want to look like Crocodile Dundee everywhere you go.

LOL. Yeah not a good look!

Now wait just a durn minute, I think I may have been insulted!!

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Old 09-02-2015, 07:30 PM
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I carry my 3" barrel 629 more than anything. With lighter loads it's just a little more velocity than a .45ACP.
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  #39  
Old 09-02-2015, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kid44 View Post
I'm a pretty open minded guy but there's just too many cons vs. pros for me to carry an N-Frame concealed, especially for a self defense situation. The guns are big and heavy, even with the short barrels, excessive recoil and muzzle blast, over penetration not to mention being a bit harder to conceal than the smaller framed revolvers and automatics. I don't think anyone is nuts to carry the N-Frame, just have to wonder why.
If I lived in Alaska, Montana or Wyoming where I MIGHT encounter a grizzly bear I would reconsider, and even then concealment may not be needed. I just don't think any self defense situation involving people would justify an N-Frame, I am referring to the .41 and .44s.
I wrote this about carrying a particular N Frame, the 22 Thunder Ranch. The 22 TR model was designed by Clint Smith to be a combat revolver. When you think about it the TR, because of its thin barrel profile, is actually lighter than a 1911 and dimensionally smaller. It only gives up a couple of rounds to the 1911 as well. Plus 45acp hardly has much muzzle blast, recoil, or report out of a 4" barrel. I hardly think it is so crazy to carry such a gun.

The other N Frame I carry is a 627PC, an 8 shot 357 with a 2.6" barrel. Which is also a pretty justifiable carry piece.

I would never carry my 625JM, though dimensionally similar to the 22 TR, the heavy barrel makes it prohibitive for carry for me. And I certainly would never carry a 44mag for self defense. But 44special out of an N Frame is an excellent choice for self defense. If I had one with a 3" or a thin 4" barrel, I would carry it too.
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Old 09-03-2015, 12:48 AM
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Carry whatever you want, are comfortable with, and can shoot. End of discussion. I see very little difference between carrying a six shot .41, .44, or .45 and a 17rd 9mm. You could argue "ethics" all day, but the gun is there to save your hide.

Do a search on "Bob Stasch". Veteran CPD Officer of many gunfights. It might be surprising to learn what they carried in the Windy City back in the day.
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  #41  
Old 09-03-2015, 04:33 AM
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I carry my full size 1911s concealed. Lately, I have worked with my 629-5 6". I can carry it comfortably and concealed now.I use tagua ( spelling probably wrong) belt holsters, and galco shoulder holsters. I love both brands. Keep in mind though, I am 6'5" and my body build and wardrobe naturally allows for easy conceal carry. ( jeans and buttoned or unbuttoned collard shirt untucked.
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  #42  
Old 09-03-2015, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Vests are seriously limiting unless you want to look like Crocodile Dundee everywhere you go.

LOL. Yeah not a good look!

Now wait just a durn minute, I think I may have been insulted!!

It's OK, Iggy, you're not wearing a croc-skin vest in NYC
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Old 09-03-2015, 07:43 AM
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With all due respect, youngster, you've rediscovered the wheel: the cylinder has always been placed there, and at that carry angle, for the very reason that Galco and others design their revolver holsters that way. It's an actual science! The longer barrel contributes to keeping the design from being top heavy, too; a v short barrel would make Galco lower the cylinder somewhat.
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Old 09-03-2015, 08:17 AM
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OP, you did a good job at " rediscovering the wheel!" I appreciate your post.

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Old 09-03-2015, 09:40 AM
HarrishMasher HarrishMasher is offline
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Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
With all due respect, youngster, you've rediscovered the wheel: the cylinder has always been placed there, and at that carry angle, for the very reason that Galco and others design their revolver holsters that way. It's an actual science! The longer barrel contributes to keeping the design from being top heavy, too; a v short barrel would make Galco lower the cylinder somewhat.
With all due respect, despite my youthful looks and tattoo, I am not a youngster, I'm pushing 50. I have been shooting and carrying for over 30 years. What I have learned is most other holster makers clearly have not been using the scientific method to produce their holsters. I have spent countless dollars trying out commercial holsters from big makers trying to find one that rides high enough to conceal a 4" N Frame. After much trial and error, the Galco Combat Master is the only commercially made holster that rides high enough to accomplish the job.

Further, other holsters that do ride high suffer from the dreaded "tip-out", where the weight of the holstered gun causes it to not ride tight and hang away from the body. This makes it very obvious you have a large gun under your shirt. Tip out is especially a problem for the 22 Thunder Ranch, with it's thin profile barrel, most of the weight is from the middle of the cylinder to the grip.

What I have done here is spared other forum members from buying 8 holsters other than the Galco Combat Master that won't do the job, and pointed them to the one that will.

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Old 09-03-2015, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Vests are seriously limiting unless you want to look like Crocodile Dundee everywhere you go.

LOL. Yeah not a good look!

Now wait just a durn minute, I think I may have been insulted!!

U insulted my horse.
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  #47  
Old 09-03-2015, 01:14 PM
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I have several Combat Masters for Revolvers and they conceal as good as anything OWB I've ever worn. Iggy, what a beautiful horse!!
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Old 09-03-2015, 02:52 PM
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Ol Roy and I whip'd that lit'l conundrum bout 40 something years ago.





Ain't much new under this ol sun...


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Old 09-03-2015, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrishMasher View Post
With all due respect, despite my youthful looks and tattoo, I am not a youngster, I'm pushing 50. I have been shooting and carrying for over 30 years. What I have learned is most other holster makers clearly have not been using the scientific method to produce their holsters. I have spent countless dollars trying out commercial holsters from big makers trying to find one that rides high enough to conceal a 4" N Frame. After much trial and error, the Galco Combat Master is the only commercially made holster that rides high enough to accomplish the job.

Further, other holsters that do ride high suffer from the dreaded "tip-out", where the weight of the holstered gun causes it to not ride tight and hang away from the body. This makes it very obvious you have a large gun under your shirt. Tip out is especially a problem for the 22 Thunder Ranch, with it's thin profile barrel, most of the weight is from the middle of the cylinder to the grip.

What I have done here is spared other forum members from buying 8 holsters other than the Galco Combat Master that won't do the job, and pointed them to the one that will.
Tip out is usually a sign of cheap Leather.Most Commerical Makers use cheap Import Leather to further their profit margins.
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Old 09-03-2015, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid44 View Post
I'm a pretty open minded guy but there's just too many cons vs. pros for me to carry an N-Frame concealed, especially for a self defense situation. The guns are big and heavy, even with the short barrels, excessive recoil and muzzle blast, over penetration not to mention being a bit harder to conceal than the smaller framed revolvers and automatics. I don't think anyone is nuts to carry the N-Frame, just have to wonder why.
... I just don't think any self defense situation involving people would justify an N-Frame, I am referring to the .41 and .44s.
*
For me, the better choice for most purposes is an autopistol, generally a 9mm with a capacity of 15 or more. That is based on training, environment, etc. However, circumstances dictate tactics, so much of the time, my carry choice is a G33. Unpleasant to shoot as a general rule, but reliable, compact, and powerful. Same size as my G26, but that had reliability issues with too many mags.

That said, there is nothing wrong with an N frame in a good holster, and the 41 mag (with mid-range loads, not hunting loads), 45 acp, 45 Colt, 44 special are all great choices. Even the .44 mag under some circumstances is not a bad choice, at least for a younger shooter who trains a lot. I did in fact qualify with the .41 using hunting loads, but I don't consider that optimal for many reasons, not the least of which is age related sensitivity that reduces the ability to train to what I consider a valid level of performance. David Keith (just one example, who can read and respond to this if he disagrees), who I believe to be a lifetime hardcore revolver shooter, is probably very well suited by a big bore N frame for LE/personal defense use. Iggy the same. They have both BTDT.

The criticisms you raise are largely addressed by ammo choice. If one carries hot hunting ammo designed to penetrate thick skinned and potentially dangerous wild animals, it is likely to be hard to shoot well due to blast and recoil, and to have penetration substantially beyond appropriate levels (such as those called for by the FBI testing protocols). MISSING and hitting an unintended/inappropriate target is a FAR bigger problem than over-penetration. Disregarding really dumb ammo choices, like these hunting loads or ball in an auto pistol, I am unaware of any significant data from shootings that shows "over-penetration" to be a significant issue at all, let alone compared to missing, hitting areas that are not sound target areas, or inadequate penetration.

All pistol rounds suck. A pistol is what one carries when a problem is not predicted. A predicted problem that cannot be avoided requires a long gun.
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