Leather versus nylon versus polymer - issues

[ISCS Yoda]

This could go in the concealed carry Forum I suppose but since it is strictly about holsters I am putting it here.

Needless to say, like most of y'all, I have carried handguns on my belts and in my pockets for years. Pocket carry issues are relatively obvious; in a car it's very hard to retrieve that gun and it can be complex when you are not in a car. Feel free to wax eloquent on that subject.

Here's the real question - leather or nylon (or similar material), pocket carry and belt carry = silent draw, for the most part. But now that I have acquired a couple of nice "polymer" (Kydex - injection molded polymer I think is the technical name)holsters, IWB-type, I noticed that when I draw the pistol out of the properly fitted polymer holster it makes a long, obvious to me, scratching sound.

Do I live with that or is there a cure for that? It sure seems to be a giveaway if you telegraph your draw with a long scratchy sound.

Comments definitely solicited.

[crazyphil]

My complaint about the early kydex holsters was the "snap" sound that
they made on the draw. Some of the makers solved that problem by
lining the holster with kind of a suede material. That may be the solution
to the scratching sound too. In my humble opinion, leather is far and away
better than nylon or kydex. However I have found one Kydex IWB that
I like a lot. It is the K1 by FIST.

I gave the K1 to my great granddaughter along with the Ruger LCR.
But I kept a photo.

[Borderboss]

I don't think the average Joe, or average bad guy, is going to know that the sound they hear is a gun being drawn. But that said, I get it that you want the draw to be as discreet as possible. Frankly, the draw should be so quick and smooth that by the time the bad guy hears it and reacts to it, you're already on target.

For absolute silence, I believe the primary option would be leather. Nylon can be a bit scratchy. But I think the best bet is to get the holster that absolutely fits you and your gun, and meets your concealment needs, and live with the scratchy sound.

[andy52]

Hopefully I will never find myself in a situation were I have to draw my firearm but if I do I want it to be as silent as possible. a counter ambush in a armed robbery needs to be as stealthy and silent as possible.
I'll stay with leather or even nylon to avoid the noise of some of the Kydex holsters.

[ContinentalOp]

I believe Garrity Gunleather makes a leather-lined kydex holster that, I suppose, would give you the best of both.

I have a JM Kydex IWB holster for my Beretta PX4 Compact. It works well, very high quality. However, I still prefer leather and use a Kramer Leather IWB#3 horsehide holster. Partly for the comfort factor, but mostly for retention. While the kydex holster holds the gun securely, once you clear the detents, which doesn't take much movement, the gun isn't held in by anything else. It's great if you want a fast draw, but I prefer a little more security. My Kramer holster provides for a quick draw, but only if you draw the gun straight out. I do a quick retention test by holding the holster, with gun, upside down a couple of inches above my bed. No matter how vigorous I shake it, my gun doesn't come out of the Kramer holster. While the kydex holster holds my gun with some shaking, it doesn't take a lot of force to dislodge it. Granted, the kydex holster will retain the gun under most situations I could realistically encounter (aside from a weapon grab), but I still prefer the added security.

As for pocket holsters, I want the opposite. I want the gun to come out easily. The DeSantis Nemesis holster I use for my 642 meets that objective. Similarly, the Remora holster I use as a nightstand holster for my PX4 has very little retention on the gun, which suits its purpose (I still need to get one for my 92). I also have a Blue Force Gear pocket holster for my 642. I'm not sure how to describe the material, but it's thin, kind of like neoprene but more rigid. I like it because it's less bulky than the Nemesis, but it has more retention on the gun than I would like. If I use it, I have to make sure I draw the gun such that the extension on the rear of the holster catches my pocket; otherwise, the holster comes out with the gun. I wouldn't use a kydex holster for pocket carry unless I knew it had low retention.

I use a Wilderness Tactical Renegade nylon ankle holster to carry my 642 as a BUG. The holster is made from a heavy-duty elastic. It works really well at retaining the gun. In fact, it's difficult to remove my gun from the holster if it isn't strapped to my leg.

As far as the noise of drawing from a kydex holster, I don't really worry about it. I still have my PX4 kydex holster and would use it if I needed an easy on/off holster. If I have to draw from a belt holster, chances are stealth isn't going to be critical because I'll be immediately responding to a threat. Even if it would be beneficial to draw silently, ambient noise in the environment is probably going to be louder than the draw from a kydex holster.

Just my opinion.

[ContinentalOp]

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

It sure seems to be a giveaway if you telegraph your draw with a long scratchy sound.

One more thought. Visually seeing you go for your gun is probably going to be a much bigger telegraph than the rasp of drawing from kydex.

[FLF]

I have been using Crossbreed Kydex holsters for many years and am very satisfied. These holsters provide secure retention and easy, rapid access with options that allow me to conceal year around.

[Doc1500]

I switched from an iwb Alien gear Kydex to a Don Hume owb leather. I'll never go back to iwb !

[Wise_A]

Live with it. The whole point of a good injection-molded plastic holster is that the draw and reholster is clean, smooth, and positive.

You're looking at a kind've niche situation--"nobody is paying attention to me, but things look bad-enough that I want to escalate by drawing my pistol, but I want to not be noticed, or not shoot anybody just yet, or start capping bad guys in the back because I think that's both warranted and a good idea for myself..."

If it's just regular bad times, screw it, by the time I'm taking the heater out, I'm definitely the dude's center of attention anyway. I want to get it out quickly and neatly, instead of fumbling with it like somebody you could maybe think about taking a gun off of.

[vipermd]

I like leather, quiet, no scratches to firearm. I would recommend Adams Holsters, he can do plain cowhide to exotics. IWB, OWB, shoulder, plus Kydex. The look good and feel great. Be Safe,

[The_Truth]

Leather makes the carry wear on your gun look good IMO. Nice and consistent, what some refer to as "honest." Leather is all I carry.

[gwpercle]

I prefer leather...it's like a pretty woman ...
looks good , feels good and smells so nice .

Can't say the same about plastic Kydex and Nylon .

[Faulkner]

I really wanted to like Kydex and I bet I bought 5 or 6. Didn't particularly like any of them and sold or gave them all away but one.

I prefer quality leather holsters, mostly custom made for me. Yeah, they're more expensive, but only a few mass produced store bought leather holsters fit the bill for me either. For the past few years, I've been ponying up and buying custom made leather holsters from a few select holster makers and I have not been disappointed yet.

I'm prefer outside the waste, leather modified pancake style because they conceal well and are comfortable.

[Farmer17]

I only use holsters with thumb break safety straps because I don't want my gun coming out for any reason other than during my draw and I want the same muscle memory for a release no matter what gun or holster I'm wearing. Unsnapping the thumb break makes a slight noise so it's no better than Kydex but that's never concerned me.

[rednichols]

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

This could go in the concealed carry Forum I suppose but since it is strictly about holsters I am putting it here.

Needless to say, like most of y'all, I have carried handguns on my belts and in my pockets for years. Pocket carry issues are relatively obvious; in a car it's very hard to retrieve that gun and it can be complex when you are not in a car. Feel free to wax eloquent on that subject.

Here's the real question - leather or nylon (or similar material), pocket carry and belt carry = silent draw, for the most part. But now that I have acquired a couple of nice "polymer" (Kydex - injection molded polymer I think is the technical name)holsters, IWB-type, I noticed that when I draw the pistol out of the properly fitted polymer holster it makes a long, obvious to me, scratching sound.

Do I live with that or is there a cure for that? It sure seems to be a giveaway if you telegraph your draw with a long scratchy sound.

Comments definitely solicited.

Most of the above you're simply stuck with, so I'll clarify something instead. Kydex was created as wall cladding, especially for forming aircraft interiors, because it doesn't burn or smoke; instead it melts. It is what is known as an 'amorphous' plastic vs a 'crystalline' plastic; and example of the latter is nylon and of the former is ABS.

What matters about all that, is that an amorphous plastic softens with every increase in temperature, until it reaches the consistency of a cooked lasagne noodle. At that point it is shaped then allowed to cool into its new shape; the process is called thermoforming. The first such holster that I know of was made in the 1960s from ABS; the second was made of Kydex and was called the Snick (the point: for the sound it made when the pistol was drawn!); the third was Bill Rogers' paddle holster for the FBI. In the latter case he is on record as saying that the FBI insisted he make that sound go away, and he did that by adding a suede lining.

Bill didn't invent the Kydex holster of course; but he DID come up with a way to line the holster with suede -- and he did this by using a vulcanizing adhesive (leaving out in his patent application that he had been doing it for years in his prior patent; so not patentable) that sticks BETTER with heat, vs say, a leather glue that lets go with heat.

Normally an injection molded holster will be made from a crystalline polymer, which is one that stays equally hard until 'poof' it reaches its melting temperature at which point it liquifies. I do recall that someone like Uncle Mike's claimed its injection molded holsters were Kydex? Seems unlikely but . . .. We would use such a plastic in holsters because it doesn't soften inside a hot car on a 100 degree day in Texas like Kydex does.

A third type of plastic isn't used in holsters at all: the thermoset; such as Bakelite. A thermoset hardens after injection molding and will NEVER melt or soften again; it has been transformed into something that will char but not melt and for these reasons it is used in the handles of cookware.

It was Ernie Hill who made the mistake of thinking that all black plastics are the same. When he was my client he made the executive decision to switch from Nylon to Delrin for making the locks for an invention of mine he used in a holster he called the 'The Jet'. Their properties are very different and Delrin breaks while Nylon can't. Guess what? Every one of the parts he made from Delrin snapped in two. Which is why the part was designed to be made from Nylon not Delrin.

[HardToHandle]

Probably the noise issue is almost inconsequential in nearly all cases. My experience across a dozen or so kydex holsters is the sound is an estimated 60 decibels, which is about the same as the background noise level of the HVAC system in my office. My guess is that level of noise is background in many other settings too.

Being dynamic by moving during the draw is probably a bigger issue for me in every situation.

There is very thin suede adhesive sheets, either real or faux, that could go into a kydex holster interior. That would quiet the release volume - as well as reduce abrasion.

[dirty & hairy]

My preference is leather on the belt. There is a sound of steel clearing leather, but to me it is not as pronounced as kydex. Regarding carrying in a car, cross-draw is a good option IMO. Some neutral cant belt holsters work great for me either strong side or cross-draw. Mitch Rosen's 'Upper Limit', for example. The high-ride design makes access while driving very good, even with a seatbelt.

[rednichols]

Originally Posted by HardToHandle

Probably the noise issue is almost inconsequential in nearly all cases. My experience across a dozen or so kydex holsters is the sound is an estimated 60 decibels, which is about the same as the background noise level of the HVAC system in my office. My guess is that level of noise is background in many other settings too.

Being dynamic by moving during the draw is probably a bigger issue for me in every situation.

There is very thin suede adhesive sheets, either real or faux, that could go into a kydex holster interior. That would quiet the release volume - as well as reduce abrasion.

I can't resist: the Owens book about Jelly Bryce quotes Jelly as having said, "the loudest sound in a gunfight is the hammer falling on an empty chamber". In that context, the sound of a pistol 'clearing plastic' might actually be troublesome :-).

[Gene L]

I like and choose leather on my revolvers...not by any though behind it, but unconsciously. That's what I and a lot of others started off with. I don't have that many revolvers, though, and I think leather is quite comfortable. I especially like the OWB holster I carried my 65 S&W 3" on duty because my coat pocket rubbing against it kinda buffed it in a pleasing way. Maybe it's a time thing.

I carried a 1911 in an Askins Avenger leather holster that was VERY fast...not so secure with the strap off, but I loved it. Got leather for my H&K P 7, just because it's OWB and with that pistol, holsters are kinda hard to find. Plus, they look better than the other choices.

Don't like nylon holsters, but I don't think I've ever carried a good one. I own a couple of cheap Nylon pocket holsters. They're lightweight and in the pocket with J-frame revolvers, are OK. They're kinda limp and are better for concealment (inside pocket) than for carry. Try to reholster a J-frame in your pocket and you'll see what I mean.

But especially IWB, I prefer Kydex. They're lightweight and don't lean over like leather holsters tend to do. And the mouth of the holster stays open so you can reholster. They also have a locking feature that gives me confidence. Never had an OWB Kydex, though.

I've got two Kydex Alabama Holsters for pocket carry, for my PPKs and my Sig 365, and they're as close to perfect as a holster can be.

And since I tote mostly in-pocket, Alabama looks good to me.

[GerSan69]

I'm kinda with Wise A: Why do you need to be "quiet"?
If you're an officer, you don't need to worry about it. Thousands of police officers use plastic or Kydex holsters. I have not heard of a single instance since those items went into use that anyone was "given away" by the sound of drawing. Ever. And you can bet that if anything ever did happen like that, the word would spread far and wide throughout the police community, like other "officer safety" issues do.
If you're a civilian, you can't shoot anyone except under the most narrow of circumstances anyway, and besides, the sound of your heart beating out of your chest will make more noise than pretty much anything else.
Just get what you like and don't try to overthink these things. Not to mention, folks that try to game-plan every one of a billion things that can happen in the course of the average day of life in the big city will either drive themselves nuts or end up as mall ninjas.

[OLDSTER]

Nothing but leather for me; especially in a pocket holster, like this Jackson Leather unit for my Seecamp.

[sotexas]

I prefer leather but have started using an OWB compound holster from Versacarry that I really enjoy wearing. All of my many IWB are leather and the Crossbreeds have kydex attached that rides against my pants. The kydex on the compound holsters is only on the front adding support and making a re-holster very easy.

[ISCS Yoda]

For absolute silence, I believe the primary option would be leather. Nylon can be a bit scratchy. But I think the best bet is to get the holster that absolutely fits you and your gun, and meets your concealment needs, and live with the scratchy sound

.

I like that.

Presently, I am carrying my M649 in a leather Galco Summer Comfort IWB under a vest. It is very comfortable, I am happy to have it out of my pocket, and the holster holds the gun snugly but not crazy snug like a Mitch Rosen holster might. Naturally, there is no scratchy sound.

I have two Kydex IWBs for my Walther CCP. Perfect fit in both cases and the only negative is the scratchy sound. I'll live with it.....

Thanks, y'all.....

[ajgunner]

Originally Posted by gwpercle

I prefer leather...it's like a pretty woman ...
looks good , feels good and smells so nice .

Can't say the same about plastic Kydex and Nylon .

This is certainly worth repeating----kind of brings a smile to my face also.

[Kronos]

Prefer kydex or nylon holsters,will use leather if it's all I can find however leather being a natural material has the whole host of problems that brings which you can work around of course.

However I will say a couple things about kydex that is wonderful and why it's my first choice:

It's solid,no having to futz with the holster when you go to get the gun back in because it's caved in on itself.

It doesn't absorb jack,leather and nylon can become soaked and that can play all kinds of havoc on things,you have a kydex holster you can hop in a creek and it won't soak up any water.

Only down side to them is OWB they can be noisy things,you bump into something you know it! But they also protect a gun very well so you can bump into stuff and not worry as much.

My two cents and all that.

[ContinentalOp]

Originally Posted by Kronos

Prefer kydex or nylon holsters,will use leather if it's all I can find however leather being a natural material has the whole host of problems that brings which you can work around of course.

However I will say a couple things about kydex that is wonderful and why it's my first choice:

It's solid,no having to futz with the holster when you go to get the gun back in because it's caved in on itself.

It doesn't absorb jack,leather and nylon can become soaked and that can play all kinds of havoc on things,you have a kydex holster you can hop in a creek and it won't soak up any water.

Only down side to them is OWB they can be noisy things,you bump into something you know it! But they also protect a gun very well so you can bump into stuff and not worry as much.

My two cents and all that.

Valid points, but I wanted to address the bolded comment. All my leather holsters are IWB with reinforced mouths and I have yet to have any issues with them staying open. Many leather holsters are available that will not close, whether it's a reinforced mouth on an IWB holster or a more structured opening on an OWB holster.

Also, one of the reasons I like my Kramer holster is that it's made from horsehide, which is denser and more moisture-resistant than cowhide. Plus, I actually prefer it to my kydex holster for hiking because of the increased retention I mentioned earlier. I'm not too concerned about getting the holster soaked, but I do have two of them so I can let one dry and use the other, if necessary.

But again, you bring up valid points that should be part of the selection process.

[rednichols]

Ah, well then, let's realize that Kydex and other polymer holsters were not invented for you all; they were invented by plastics people who didn't know how to do leather and then popularized by same. Bill Rogers didn't invent the thermoformed holster that goes back into the mid-1960s, but he did popularize them -- and it was the FBI who told him to get rid of both the noise and the wear on their pistols. That's why there are leather liners in Rogers and Safariland holsters.

And modern makers who are offering Kydex holsters do that because they're EASY and cutting economy is far better than with leather; every sheet of Kydex is the same surface quality and thickness for every square inch and come in 4'x8' sheets! Can't say any of those things about any genuine leather.

And now Safariland has dumped Kydex for injection molding; shutting down their Mexico Kydex 'holster' (I use the term advisedly) assembly plants and doing their injection molding in Florida. Bill was always a plastics-only man, not a clue about leather. Dunno if they're 'overmolding' them with a leather liner and won't bother to find out. These are not holsters any more, they're plastic Kleenex box covers with straps on 'em.

So despite all the benefits of one or the other for the consumer, 'this is not about you'. The switch to plastics has everything to do with their makers and nothing to do with consumers. I know all these players personally :-).

[ISCS Yoda]

I think I kinda lied.....

I have two Kydex IWBs for my Walther CCP. Perfect fit in both cases and the only negative is the scratchy sound. I'll live with it.....

I ordered a Loboleather holster for the Walther.

[gwpercle]

I don't own any Kydex holsters ... just how loud are they... that drawing a handgun makes such an alerting sound to the bad guys that they can hear and home in on that sound and recognize it as a threat ?


I don't have a problem with racking a 12 gauge pump in a situation , kinda tell the bad guy..." Church Is Out ... Things are fixing to go from bad to worse " .

Kydex can't be that alarming can it ?
Gary

[jack the toad]

Although I've not tried them all, IMO, the mika (faux leather/nylon???) pocket holster is my favorite so far. Matter of fact, since trying one several years ago, I've pretty much quit my search.
ETA:
BTW, they wear good too.

[Grayfox]

As I've said many times before......
I've got no more use for plastic holsters than I do for plastic guns.

[Revoman]

Originally Posted by Faulkner

I really wanted to like Kydex and I bet I bought 5 or 6. Didn't particularly like any of them and sold or gave them all away but one.

I prefer quality leather holsters, mostly custom made for me. Yeah, they're more expensive, but only a few mass produced store bought leather holsters fit the bill for me either. For the past few years, I've been ponying up and buying custom made leather holsters from a few select holster makers and I have not been disappointed yet.

I'm prefer outside the waste, leather modified pancake style because they conceal well and are comfortable.

Can I ask who made the Ruger holster in your photo?