Effective Sept. 30, Arizona put a new law into effect that a concealed-carry permit holder may pack a concealed weapon into a bar or restaurant that serves alcohol if the owner/owners don't post a sign indicating "no guns allowed."

Although I have heard of a few bars and restaurants loudly protesting the new law and stating their intent to post such a sign, I have not personally entered a bar or restaurant serving alcohol that has done so. Am also pleased to report that there have been no shoot-outs in bars or restaurants since the law went into effect. I'm personally gratified at this, and wonder how many of you living in Arizona have experienced posted signs barring guns?

If so, give 'em one of these cards:

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Haven't seen anything yet, but I'm in a small town. However, I've made my cards and they are ready to go if needed.

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2 Blessed 2B Stressed

I have only encountered 1 restaurant with a no guns sign. I wrote them the following letter and gave them a No Guns, No Money card. Guess it didn't make an impression...after a week the sign is still posted.

October 4, 2009


To The Management,

I thought I would take a moment to explain why we did not have dinner in your restaurant last evening. We got as far as the front door where we saw your new sign banning firearms. We used to dine in your restaurant up until you acquired your liquor license some time ago. Both my wife and I received our Concealed Carry licenses from the State of Arizona in 2004 after receiving the required training. Up until a few days ago, it was illegal for us to dine in an establishment that served alcohol so we quit going to your restaurant when you began serving alcohol. Before that we used to have dinner a couple of times a week and both of us were always armed with concealed weapons.

The law in Arizona was recently changed permitting us to now dine in places that served alcohol and that was good news to us because we could once again enjoy dining at your restaurant. It should also be mentioned that we never consume alcohol while carrying because that would be illegal for us to do so and put us at risk for losing our licenses. We were both surprised and disappointed to find that you had put up a sign banning firearms. Needless to say, we chose to dine at another restaurant where we were not banned.

Has it ever occurred to you that by posting a sign banning firearms that you are advertising to the criminal element that everyone inside is unarmed and defenseless? Do you really think that someone intent on doing you or your customers harm would actually obey your sign? By posting your sign you are in reality putting everyone dining there in danger of being a victim of a crime should a criminal decide to take advantage of your sign advertising that everyone is unarmed. Your sign has only banned the people legally trained to defend themselves and others from being a victim of a crime, the ones with the money to spend in your establishment.

Signed:

I admire your letter. Literate, to the point, and no redneck raving. It should be a model for similar letters.

T-Star

I whole-heartedly agree.

Haven't seen any new signs yet. It is nice to go out and have "dinner with protection".

Have not seen a sign here or anywhere I do business. Going to Bisbee Monday and on to Serra Vista. In Douglas half the population is Border Patrol I doubt if any place posts, SV is 50% Fort Huachuca personal. Bisbee is kinda liberal we will see.

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My Mother likes me.

I've eaten in a couple places that serve alcohol, and looked at the entry of another, and have yet to see the "no guns" signs. Where can you get the cards with the "take my business elsewhere" message?

if it is concealed,,,who cares

Despite the whining and crying in the letters to the editors section of the newspaper, I haven't seen any signs here in Lake Havasu City. Of course, our snowbirds from up North may not have seen the news and are just arriving in town while the California Contingent (which pretty well keeps the bars in town packed year round) hasn't been very vocal as yet.

I got a stack of cards ready and waiting although I must admit, a town with 50,000 inhabitants and 6 gun shops is probably not going to need a whole bunch.

Dan R

I sure wish they had that sign outside the Sizzler in Barstow last year...would have saved me hours on the *******...

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

You will if you pull it (or someone "makes you"). I may not like the existing laws but when it comes to CCW, you better believe I am going to comply. I may be in the minority here (imagine that), but I see CCW as privilege much like driving. You fill out the forms, take the test etc., etc., and they give you a license/permit. "They" retain the ability to revoke said privilege. No, this not intended to be a debate about rights/privilege, just an observation on the way it currently is out there.

Now as I said, I may not like laws but since I want to continue to CCW/drive I have come to terms with compliance. In this case it is my choice to not enter an establishment that has the legal right, by posting, to prohibit CCW. I won't do business there even if I am not carrying but hey, it is his restaurant and he has the right - even though I think it/he is stupid, to run his business as he sees fit.

If you go into a bar and drink or a restaurant that is posted while carrying and you end up getting caught, it happens, (see the "Do you try and make people" thread), the consequences are severe. You will probably lose the ability to ever CCW again and perhaps even lose the ability to "legally" own a firearm for the rest of your life. For me it is just not worth the risk. Everyone gets to make their own choices but we must be prepared to live with the consequences.

I was just through AZ last month. Stayed at the Courtyard Marriott in Flagstaff, drank in their bar...no sign. Ate dinner at Black Barts (a whole nuther story there), again I did not see any signs. During my return trip I stayed at the Courtyard Marriott at the junction of the 101 and I-10. When we walked down to the bar for an evening drink, the had a sign posted right behind the bartender proclaiming "no guns allowed".

Maybe it had something to do with being so close to Phoenix proper? I don't know.

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Non illegitimae carborundum

I agree...I will not carry where posted, I will just avoid the business.

The law just went into effect at the beginning of October 2009.

I saw in the paper that it was 18 years ago today when the massacre in Luby's in Kileen, Texas took place. This event really is why Texas has concealed carry today, and maybe a lot of other states too. These establishments need to be reminded of that. The BGs don't leave their guns in the car.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

Lee in Quartzsite:

Great letter! Rational and to the point. Should be a model for others to do likewise.

For those asking about the card: It's right on my original post in this thread, but here it is again:



Then, assuming you have Windows, right-click the card above and "save as" whatever file name you want, like "noguns.jpg".



Go to your word processor (I use Word). Click "Insert", "Picture", "From file" and pick your file for insertion onto the page. Repeat as necessary, and move the pictures around as necessary to get max number on the page. You should then have a Word file like this:



Select your paper or card stock for printing, print, and use scissors or a paper cutter to separate your cards.

Simple, really! I keep a supply of 'em in my wallet.

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Paladin-do you have anything on the back of the card? I came across the following somewhere and thought it was a good summary:

As a citizen with a concealed handgun license, I:
Have no felony convictions;
Have never been convicted of domestic violence;
Have no history of mental illness or drug addiction;
Have passed a background check and have my fingerprints on file with the authorities;
Have passed mandatory training in both the use of a firearm and applicable law.
CAN YOU SAY THAT ABOUT YOUR OTHER CUSTOMERS?

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2 Blessed 2B Stressed

Nothing on the back of the card yet, but that's a good summary. I'll have to figure out a way to align the front and back images.

Thanks!

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

PALADIN85020...thanks for the compliment. I am going to try a figure out how to add Chick a Boom's wording to the back of my cards.

Tennessee's Restaurant Carry Law went into effect back in September. Oh yeah, there was alot of screaming and crying. "Blood in the streets" and all that BS. And many restraurants did post signs. In response, we permit holders took our business elsewhere.
Well, so far no shootouts. More importantly, many posted places started to feel the pinch. Slowly, but surely the signs are coming down.

BTW: one of our local Tennessee Firearms Association members owns a print shop. He made up thousands of the cards just like Palidin posted and the backs are printed up very much like what Chick a Boom posted. He's been giving them away at the monthly meetings here. I have some and take a few with me whenever we go out to eat. So far I haven't had to use any of them.

So hang in there Arizona, it'll get better before you know it.

It took me about 10 minutes with my Business Card program and now I have cards made up with the photo on the front and Chick a Boom's wording on the back. One thing I have noticed lately is that at my favorite pizza place there are people with pitchers of soda in place of beer....must be carrying or maybe designated drivers!

In the great state of Pennsylvania you can carry in bars since the the concealed carry law went into effect. I've never seen a no guns sign and have never heard of a problem. At least in my neck of the woods.

Bummer, we went out to meet some friends for dinner tonight at Lis Doon Varna, an Irish pub over in Arrowhead and one of our favorite places to eat. They have now posted a no firearms sign. It is a recent posting, we had dinner there a couple of weeks ago and it had not been posted. I'll be sending them a letter explaining that while we enjoy their restaurant, we do have other choices on where to eat out.

On the humorous side, whoever made the no firearms allowed sign for DPS that businesses are using must be a gun guy with a sense of humor. The pistol shown inside of the barred red circle is a custom wide body 1911 race gun complete with compensator and magwell.

Copy of the letter I sent the restaurant tonight. I'll make sure and post if I receive a response. Lee, I hope you don't mind, but I did use a line or two from your letter.

October 20, 2009

To The Management,

As regular patrons of your establishment, I think it is only fair to explain why my family will be dining elsewhere. We met with friends to have dinner and wish them well on an upcoming deployment to Iraq. We were surprised to see that a “No Firearms Allowed” sign had been posted next to the front door. My impression is that this is a relatively new posting since I do not recall seeing it on Saturday, October 3rd when we dined at you establishment.

As of September 30th, the recent changes to Arizona’s law allowing Concealed Carry Permit holders to carry within an establishment with a liquor license have gone into effect. Theses changes also make it illegal for a permit holder to consume alcohol while carrying a weapon.

Both myself and one other member of our party have held Concealed Carry Permits from the State of Arizona for a number of years. We got as far as the front door, saw the new sign, and returned to our vehicles to store our weapons before entering. It should be noted that no one in our party ordered alcohol at any point during our meal.

Can you honestly believe that a simple sign will deter an individual intent on doing harm to your staff or patrons? Can you honestly state that it is more of a threat to allow law abiding permit holders to carry inside your establishment while dining than force them to store their firearms in their vehicles in the parking lot where they may be subject to theft and misuse. Your sign has only banned the people legally trained to defend themselves and others from being the victim of a crime, the ones with money to spend in your establishment.

We have thoroughly enjoyed the food and atmosphere of your establishment, it has become one of our favorites. Our four year old daughter has especially enjoyed our weekend lunches there watching and dancing to the live performers. However, I value my family’s safety more than I do a good meal. We have a lot of choices on where we dine, especially in the Arrowhead area. Until your sign is removed, we and the other members of our party will be dining elsewhere.

Sincerely,

2000Z-71

Great letter!

BTW, there is no legal requirement in Arizona for posting the "no guns" sign at the door. The only legal requirement is for a notice next to the establishment's liquor license. If you don't see a door sign, it's legal to enter armed to check for a sign near the liquor license. It's no excuse to say you didn't see a sign at the door.

Just because there is no door sign doesn't mean that guns are prohibited there. It behooves you to check!

Again, super letter - to the point, courteous, but firm.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Response that I received this morning. On one hand I do find it positive that the managing partner may take down the sign. On the other hand, I do feel like there is a little attitude in telling me that it's a problem that I need to solve for him. I will respond, but I do need to think about it a while. I will thank him for being open to taking the sign down, I just need to think of how best to respond to the rest of his letter.

2000Z-71,

Thanks for your letter. I and many of my friends and my managers own firearms or have concealed permits. We feel your pain.

I may or may not take the sign down at this point because it is too soon to evaluate the potential liability. I would like to take it down because we have a lot of police and military as customers and most of them pack concealed. However, if I do take it down and there is a gun incident on the property, the potential is high that some hot shot lawyer is going to sue me penniless.

Unfortunately the sign has nothing to do with our rights as legal gun owners and everything to do with how lawyers can sue one out of business if proper policies are not in place or the staff does not perform per the law to protect everyone's rights including a potential victim's rights. I do not allow my managers with conceal permits to carry on property due to the tremendous labiality risks.

In my opinion this law was poorly written and not very well thought out because business owners concerns were not addressed; specifically liability issues were not addressed. As a business owner I do not have enough information to write a policy to properly direct my staff if there is a gun incident, that will effectively address and manage the liability risk. If you can provide me that language for the policy, great, I will take the sign down tomorrow. If you can't, why are you mad at me for poorly written legislation? Better yet, go down to the state capital building to try to obtain this information, but be prepared to turn over your firearm prior to entering the building, they have firearm storage lockers outside as a public convince.

We did and do appreciate your business. But right now it is too soon with too many unknowns and liability risks to take the sign down. I hope things do change soon. If you have any info that may help me better manage these issues and to protect gun owner's rights...and limits our liability, please send it on.

Thank you,

Name Removed
Managing Partner
Lis Doon Varna Irish Pub and Restaurant

This may or may not help in a truly major way, but hopefully could at least serve as a starting point for a reply to that letter...It's a touch long, but I was shooting (no pun intended...heheh) for being as complete as I could be on this subject. Listy bit follows:

--How about pointing out to this person that his liability for preventing legal gun owners from carrying in his establishment, should something go badly (bad guy antics sort of badly) and no one is allowed to be there armed who could have saved peoples' lives, is likely the same or even greater than he currently believes the alternative threatens (i.e. "why didn't the owner protect us from the bad guys, or at least let us protect ourselves?").

--His response to that would very likely be (assuming he is smart enough to evaluate it this far) that would be/could have been armed customers had the warning of their sign and could have chosen to go elsewhere. i.e.: Not his fault they got hurt by a bad guy due to not having their guns, as it would have been their choice to be in there unarmed.

--My (IMHO sort of way...heheh) response to that last bit would be something akin to pointing out that if he's worried about the liability of having legally armed people in his establishment in the event something bad happens, then he should be also be concerned about the effective suggestion that he is "protecting his customers safety" by disallowing these legally armed people to be there. If he is, again effectively, admitting he is attempting to protect customers with that sign, then he is also admitting liability for *not* protecting those customers from the bad guys who may come in. In essence, he can't have it both ways...

--The liability he fears is from taking responsibility for allowing legal gun carriers in his establishment (a markedly more responsible segment of society than his non-licensed customers)...By blocking them, he *accepts* more responsibility for protecting his customers from other threats. If he simply allows people to carry legally, then the law is on his side. If he blocks them, for the purposes of supposedly "protecting customers safety", then he better also be worried about countering the LIABILITY threat he welcomes with his "hey, bad guys, all my customers are unarmed and ripe for your picking!" sign.

--He has, IMHO, two choices for how to address this...Let people carry legally, and keep doing otherwise as he's been doing for years as far as security. Or, he can ban legal carriers and hire a team of security officers to be there instead to counter any threat brought in by his advertisement of unarmed victims.

--Were I an attorney, and someone tried to sue this business owner after an incident, the following are the most obvious options/routes:

Situation 1: Something bad happens with legal carriers banned from carrying guns into the establishment, and the owners have not provided adequate security to counter threats from bad guys.

Outcome: I sue the pants off this guy for not providing adequate security to counter the threat he not only welcomed (with his little sign) but effectively begged to happen. In addition, he showed clear and *active* disregard for his customers' safety by purposely disarming the legal carriers and yet not physically searching all persons--legal carriers or not--and detaining the ones carrying illegally by using his rather expensive security force he doesn't have. He "knowingly" put his "poor customers" at a far greater risk with his "all my customers are unarmed" sign, and did less than nothing to avoid harm to his customers. I might even push for (though it may or may not go anywhere, it would still cost him time/money/heartache to defend against) a local DA to charge the owner criminally with willful neglect of some kind, endangerment, inciting riotous behavior (the bad guys were "incited" by the sign advertising the customers' weakness), providing an "un-safe" workplace for his employees (who I would also encourage to sue his pants off), accessory to murder (or, whatever other crime happened) by virtue of *more* than simply allowing it to happen, a charge for "violating the civil rights" of his CHL customers by singling them out for punishment (i.e. the crime committed on his watch) and discriminated against them, and whatever else in this vein I could think up. I'd probably also get the state Alcoholic Beverage Commission to look at pulling his license (or, at least, slapping him with a fine) for not doing proper and "reasonable" dilligence in securing his establishment against the sorts of obvious threats he welcomed and enticed with his little sign, the result being the much greater chance his alcoholic beverages could have been stolen and/or consumed by under-aged/already intoxicated persons illegally. "He showed obvious disregard for securing the beverages for which he has been licensed to serve and store in a legal manner." You get the idea, and this isn't even the worst of what could legally be done in this situation.

Situation 2: Owner removes anti-gun sign, allowing legal carry in their establishment, and something bad happens. No matter whether it was a legal carrier doing something good or bad.

Outcome: I don't sue (or, lose to a decent attorney, if I even try), because state law clearly defines that the person(s) was/were legal to carry, and the business owner had no *reasonable* way of knowing anyone was carrying to begin with and no duty to search them. It isn't his job to "vet" carriers; the state does that. If the state says the carrier was good to go, then it's off his shoulders to prove otherwise. He had no "reasonable" expectation there was a threat, and need not do anything additional from what he's done for years to counter any such threat to his customers.

Liability is, afterall, all about someone being able to show neglect in doing something "reasonable" to counter safety issues...

I should think, given the choices, the wise answer is obvious.

My .49 cents plus a few pages...heheh Hope it helps at least some.

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"...toujours l'audace"

I had written to the NRA-ILA asking for their help. Since the owner asked for help with wording of his company policy to allow for permit holders to carry, I thought they might be a good source to ask. Nice to see that the NRA was so "helpful" in the matter especially since they had a hand in writing the revised legislation. Response below receive a week after I had written:

Thank you very much for the attached copies of your correspondence with your local restaurant owners. Rest assured that with your help, NRA-ILA will work to promote our pro-freedom agenda in Washington, D.C., and in state legislatures nationwide.

Noting your interest and commitment to preserving our freedoms, I strongly encourage you to join NRA-ILA FrontLines™. FrontLines is comprised of NRA-ILA’s most dedicated volunteers who work vigorously at the local, state, and federal levels to defend our Second Amendment rights.

For more information, and to enroll in the FrontLines program on-line, simply go to NRA-ILA ::, click the “Take Action” drop-down icon, then click “Get Involved Locally,” and then click “Sign-up to Volunteer.”
Again, thank you for contacting your elected officials on behalf of our mutual cause.

Yours in freedom,

Name removed

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

God, is that lame!

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All Rights Reserved

"Thanks for your correspondence, by the way - did you remember to give us money?"

There are two points to be considered here ---

Firstly, the recently enacted "guns in bars" law (actually, "guns in restaurants that have liquor licenses") doesn't create a duty to "check" weapons at the door, as applies to all other businesses, and similar entities. Any other AZ business or municipal office, or etc., that wishes to prohibit carrying firearms must provide lockboxes or etc., providing patrons an opportunity to check weapons before entering restricted space...This is, so far as I know, an unresolved issue.

Secondly, the restauranteur's contention that he's exposed to liability by failing to prohibit legal carry in his establishment seems to be one dull edge of a double-edged sword --- what if someone is killed because of being deprived of suitable self-defense tools, at the owner's volition? I'd like to have the lawyers' contingency fees on that outcome...

I think that common sense may ultimately prevail, and that future legislation may clear up these ambiguities...

As to the NRA's response, NRA take's credit for every grassroots affiliate accomplishment, however peripheral NRA's involvement, which, here in Arizona, has been zip, for many years ...

Here is a partial list courtesty of the AZ locals at AR15.com.

Resturants who do not want your CCW business... - AR15.COM

I went to Lindy's Diner a few days back and they had a sign up also.

Here's the front and back of a card specifically designed to give to those restaurants in Arizona that don't allow concealed carry:





John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Nuts.

That is a totally unacceptable response from NRA-ILA.

The one thing that you can say to the restaurant owner is, simply that he could get sued by someone for anything, much less the firearm policy. This is the United States- you can be sued for anything and everything.
Doesn't mean the feller that sued you will win, but he can still sue.

Want to bet he doesn't have "Caution:Hot" on every glass/cup in the place?
Lawsuit.

Does his place conform to the veterans with disabilities act? If not...
Lawsuit.

Does he have any statement that his place uses peanuts, peanut oil, milk products or wheat products? If not...
Lawsuit.

Does he have the signs for helping someone that is choking prominently displayed for all to see? If not...
Lawsuit.

Has he put down non-slip rubber stuff in the kitchen so cooks and employees won't slip on a greasy floor? If not..
Lawsuit.

There are a whole lot more, but that's just off the top of my head.

The gun thing is the least of his worries.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

Before Caje or Sip get involved, I just had to ask for a definition of "labiality". Gotta keep it family friendly, though.

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Rick

Gotta yell BS over your stat that every 2.6 seconds a citizen uses a gun in lawful self-defense. C'mon, who came up with that? A cite would be useful so I could chastise that person/organization.

NOT shooting the messenger (pun intended) but that translates into 33231 incidents wherein citizens use a gun in self defense every day!!!!! Heck, I doubt that many folks go to the range every day.

IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

Such bogus info tends to convince anti-gun advocates that gun toters are not rational.

Be safe.

You know, you're right. I did some figuring based on Gary Kleck's (More Guns, Less Crime) estimate of 2 million instances of self defense with a gun per year in the U.S. That works out to slightly over 3.8 instances per minute. I think if that every 2.6 seconds figure was changed to 2.6 instances per minute, it would be closer to correct.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Good letter.