Flintlock vs AR 15 format

gizamo · #1 12-04-2009, 09:22 PM

Just a general question....

If you were given a choice for accuracy and smallest 3 shot group...

Which would you consider more accurate. A .36 caliber rifled Flintlock with a 42" barrel and standard sights...or a modern version of a AR or M-16 with standard iron sights?

giz

deadin · #2 12-04-2009, 09:27 PM

This has got to be a trick question. What range?

gizamo · #3 12-04-2009, 09:29 PM

Let us say 100 yards...for pink slips....

Off-hand...of course! No need to make this any easier on the Flinter...

giz

gizamo · #4 12-04-2009, 10:19 PM

No takers...

Dang, I was hopin' somebody thought their Bushmaster etc..... was as accurate as 1700's technology...

Then again, I've takin a few pink slips with this bet..

giz

gizamo · #5 12-04-2009, 11:02 PM

Hmmmm,

Guess them modern guns aren't all they're cracked up to be....

All kidding aside...
I've run some very accurate flintlocks by modern makers. Not really sure they have improved on the genius of the old school. And I actually have beatin' a good deal of folks taking this challenge.

One of those rare instance's when Old School tech actually stands a chance against modern days.

Truth be told ~ mostly I cheated. I depended on lots of field time with my loads and calculations....versus guys that were just shootin' standard factory fodder in pretty good modern guns....

They never had a chance.....

giz

500 Magnum Nut · #6 12-04-2009, 11:11 PM

I'll scope my ar and you will lose.
A 20" sight radius against a 42" plus radius, the flint better win.

You what to try this at 2AM?

Iggy · #7 12-04-2009, 11:15 PM

I have tried and succeeded in most of the "old timer" shootin' tricks. Split a ball on an axe blade and broken two dishes with one shot.

Blown out candles flames. bust the egg on a string or you got to eat it. etc.

I have taken deer, antelope, and elk with flintlocks.

I have a lot of confidence in the old smoke poles.

I have both, but I never felt the urge to put one against the other.

They each take a certain mind set to shoot and enjoy and they are so far apart, I just never thought to compare them.

dennis40x · #8 12-04-2009, 11:40 PM

Let’s do 200yd standing, 300yd sitting and 600yd prone. Let’s see who can hold the 10 ring at those distances. While we’re at it let’s have timed fire as stipulated in across the course highpower rifle matches. Metallic sights fine with me. I can bring a M1, M1A, or AR15 let the games begin.

Vulcan Bob · #9 12-05-2009, 01:26 AM

I would say it all depends on who is pulling the trigger.

bmhiii · #10 12-05-2009, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulcan Bob

I would say it all depends on who is pulling the trigger.

Roger that.

flop-shank · #11 12-05-2009, 07:15 AM

Not a flintlock, but I fired an 1861 Springfield with some friends on a lazy summer day and we were putting the heat on a 55 gal. barrel at three hundred meters as good or better than I ever could with an M-16. The 1861 is a little deficient in the firepower category though.

BOB THE PALINDROME · #12 12-05-2009, 02:47 PM

Having shot flint locks a time or two one should keep in mind there is a lag between the "flash" and the "bang". I vote for the AR.

gizamo · #13 12-05-2009, 03:40 PM

Pretty fun to be having a discussion about a type gun obsoleted 175 years ago...and kept alive for generations by individuals who found that the Flintlocks are on another level than most guns. They are a combination of art and legend. They seem to almost respond to each shooter differently, yet still most folks that hold one appreciates the elegence of the form...They are like sleek sailing vessels that almost have a life themselves. And each one of them requires of it's owner a mastery of the Black Powder arts...

Of the AR, I suppose we all can say....they look good in Black.

tallpaul · #14 12-05-2009, 06:51 PM

A proper well made lock on a quality tuned flintlock offers less locktime than ya would think. The average cheap flint off the shelf is not a proper gun and have turned more potential flinters off than about anything else.

While not a flinter my TC renegade has converted more than one modern rifle shooter over the years. I remember being at a strip mine and the guys were shooting scope sighted mini 14's at tiles a bit over a hundred yards away and they were not doing well. They were laughing earlier at my renegade and when I turned and set up to shoot at the tile they were trying to hit they laughed- until my shot offhand not only hit but knocked over that tile... I remember it mostly because they both went out and bought Muzzle loaders the next day

I have had a couple flinters and have a lyman Great plains which is supposed to be one of the cheapest that ya can tune to actually work well although I haven't set it up yet. too many projects I guess

gizamo · #15 12-05-2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennis40x

Let’s do 200yd standing, 300yd sitting and 600yd prone. Let’s see who can hold the 10 ring at those distances. While we’re at it let’s have timed fire as stipulated in across the course highpower rifle matches. Metallic sights fine with me. I can bring a M1, M1A, or AR15 let the games begin.

Nope, not with a Flinter...

But how about we step it up to 1000 yards

giz

Andy Griffith · #16 12-05-2009, 07:51 PM

I'd take the flint-operated AR myself.

I'm surprised you don't have one Giz...

And here, these fellers made a .50 cal muzzleloding barrel for your AR!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K64BkgjBhjI

gizamo · #17 12-05-2009, 08:08 PM

Andy,

Consider it stolen...

giz

CW Spook · #18 12-05-2009, 09:58 PM

That would be a very interesting challenge. I'd expect the average AR-15 to best the average flintlock, but on the other hand, I have a .45 percussion T/C Hawken that I know will shoot closer than I can hold, so I'd not place any large bets either way. Like some else said, it's gonna depend more on who's pulling the trigger.

dennis40x · #19 12-06-2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gizamo

Nope, not with a Flinter...
But how about we step it up to 1000 yards

giz

Ok 1000Yds no problem. It’s a deal 40X versus that Sharps

popgun · #20 12-06-2009, 12:31 AM

how about in the rain

flop-shank · #21 12-06-2009, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CW Spook

That would be a very interesting challenge. I'd expect the average AR-15 to best the average flintlock, but on the other hand, I have a .45 percussion T/C Hawken that I know will shoot closer than I can hold, so I'd not place any large bets either way. Like some else said, it's gonna depend more on who's pulling the trigger.

A little wind might make life rough for those light AR bullets.

deadin · #22 12-06-2009, 11:07 AM

The last (and only) flinter I owned and shot was a T/C .45 cal. with a frizzen that needed re-hardening. It was an absolute embarrassing gun to shoot. Nothing like being at the range with a charge down the barrel and have the RM call a cease fire. “If you’ve got one in the chamber, fire it, open the action and bench your gun”. Here I sit, SNAP, nothing. SNAP, nothing. SNAP, nothing. By now everybody is looking at me expectantly and I have to pull out my Bic to touch off the pan powder.
I will admit that when it did shoot, it was fairly accurate. (Except for the “lighter” shots) I suppose I really should give a sparker another chance.
On the other hand, the last AR15 I owned (Armalite) wouldn’t shoot for beans. It had a 1 in 9 barrel and I tried every bullet weight/load combination in the book and I could never get it to shoot under 3” at 100 yds. (off of sandbags.) I finally got rid of it. (I wasn’t very impressed by the design in the first place. Just too heavy for what it shoots. I’ve got quite a number of reloads left and have been thinking of picking up a bolt gun or single shot for them.)