Watching the final scene of this movie, don't know how "factual" it is, but provides good entertainment on a snowy day.

__________________
Sure you did

Based on the recent forensic investigations using analysis of concentrations of spent cases, bullets and other artifacts, most of the movie versions have been highly fictionalized. Apparently, Custer bought it fairly early on and the rest of the command basically collapsed.

Custer violated so many basic rules of combat (unity of command, proper intelligence, concentration of firepower, etc.) that he should have been flying the rising sun flag instead of the stars and stripes. The Japanese essentially duplicated all of his mistakes in 1939 at the Battle of Nomonhan in Mongolia, with identical results. It was Zhukov's first notable action, after which his career took off in overdrive.

I'm a big fan of the classic wargame, "Age of Rifles". One of the scenarios is the Little Big Horn in which Custer brought the Gatling guns. In one game against the computer, I met Custer right at the river and wiped him out even with the Gatlings. He never got across the river, much less attack the Indian camp.

Aloha,

Not to many folks know what happened to the Japanese at the Battle of Nomonhan, much less even heard of it.

Don't know if you've had a chance to be at the Big Horn Battle site. No matter what you read or watched, it can't compare to the feel of the place. Lying in,(on actually), one of the rifle pits or just walking up medicine tail coolee, the bluffs even 'last stand' hill gives you a brand new understanding. You can feel the reality of the place.
Custer was arrogant and stupid and made the classic mistake of underestimating his oponent.
Anyway, It's an experience you should do for yourself, if you haven't.

__________________
Pete.

I love that movie. During the final battle sequence I really like the way they mix the Indian music in with the Garry Owen. The score is excellent.

__________________
Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

Just a couple of points here, and yes, Custer made a few mistakes-and paid the price. A historian (or Soldier) must look at the fight in the context of the times. Custer's plan wasn't bad (Lee split his forces in the face of the enemy more than once and is considered a military genius), but he might also have had a different plan if he had listened to his Crow scouts. At the time, the US Army was totally confident that it would defeat the Indians in a pitched battle- the only problem was to corner them. Custer wanted to catch the "hostiles" this one time before they got away. As far as the Gatling gun issue, artillery (that's what Gatlings are, as far as transporting them goes) slows cavalry down. Cavalry is a screening/ reconaissance force, or in Custer's time, a rapid deployment force. I doubt the guns could have kept pace with Custer.
Custer "disobeyed" orders. Yes and no. US Commanders are traditionally given wide latitude on the battlefield. Custer (as has other Commanders) "disobeyed" orders previously (Civil War) and was a national hero because of it. If he had pulled off the Little Big Horn (i.e., winning) he probably would have been a Presidential candidate in 1876. The Commander on the scene must take appropriate action based on what he sees, not what the overall Commander wants, miles to the rear. Custer was one of those people who seized the initiative.
As far as what actually happened, any infantryman can walk that battlefield and picture the scene. Custer, after attempting to cross the Little Big Horn, was pushed back, up the hill. The Indians fighting Custer were reinforced by more Indians after Reno retreated. Custer was trying to get to the top and set up a perimeter, but didn't quite make it. It was a fighting retreat all the way. The pressure was too great. I would imagine that the fight, which was on foot (no Indian ponies riding in a circle around the 7th), was over in 45 or so minutes. Another point against Custer was that the plains grass was very tall, allowing the Indians to use concealment to get close. Panic MAY have set in (big disagreement on this). If Custer had made it to the top, set up a good perimeter and been able to set up good fields of fire, he MIGHT have survived. This is good fodder for late-night discussions on the Internet!
Bob

It is an amazingly eerie experience. You can almost see the Indians coming over the rise. There's just no way to really describe it.

We walked through Little Big Horn just this last September. It is a very eerie experience and I would highly recommend it to any here that have not been there.

As mentioned, when the troops split, the battle strategy changed, Custer just couldn't get to be where he wanted to be and his troops had no way to make it to him, or just didn't want to. Plus, many of Indians had the Winchester and Spencer repeating rifles compared to the single shot Springfield's the Army carried.

Carrying Dakotah (Sioux) blood, I've got a slightly different take on this. Custer's 1876 invasion of our land was in violation of previously signed treaties for the purpose of compelling the involuntary surrender of additional land following the discovery of gold in the Black Hills after an expedition led by Custer there for that purpose in 1874.

The Battle at the Greasy Grass (what you call the Little Big Horn) was the result of a war of aggression, and Custer, in his hopes that a swift and decisive victory over the Sioux would catapult him into the Presidency, stumbled into a sacred Sun Dance ceremony, attended by some 25,000 of my ancestors.

As to Battle at the Greasy Grass being a victory for the Sioux, I am not so sure about that. A visit today to any reservation -- Pine Ridge, Standing Rock, Cheyenne River, Flandreau, Sisseton-Wahpeton, Yankton, Rosebud -- in South Dakota will make it clear that the Sioux people have suffered mightily and continue to suffer for that Pyrrhic victory.





Bullseye

They would if it hadn't overlapped the German invasion of Poland.

The Japanese and Soviets had been messing with each other in the border region between Manchukuo (Japanese puppet kingdom of Manchuria) and Mongolia for years, the way that the Soviets and Chinese did in the '60s.

Tokyo decided that they'd execute a limited operation to "regularize" the disputed border. They gave the 23rd Infantry Division this task. As usual, the Japanese Kwantung Army and it's version of Heath Ledger's "Joker", Tsuji Masanobu, played Eddie Haskell to the 23rd's (and the Japanese Army Air Force's) "Beaver" Cleaver.

The Japanese showed up grossly under-equipped, and ill-informed for the task. Their maps were so totally inadequate that they were never sure where they really were on the billiard table flat terrain at any given moment. During the battle, one Japanese unit "took" their objective, only to find that they were thousands of yards short of it.

The JAAF were SPECIFICALLY instructed not to attack into Soviet territory, which they of course did, encouraged by the Kwantung Army.

To make a long story short, the 23rd Division, with no useful tactical or strategic intelligence (their OBSERVATION BALLOON was promptly shot down by a Soviet fighter.), and no anti-tank weapons beyond Molotov cocktails was wiped out by overwhelming Soviet forces.

The Japanese had no artillery that could compare to Soviet artillery in range, and a laughably small supply of ammunition for their biggest guns, which caused them to be rationed to a few rounds a DAY, while the Japanese were deluged by Soviet artillery shells of every caliber.

Japanese tanks were both outclassed and vastly outnumbered by Soviet armor. In addition, it was Japanese doctrine for the crews of disabled vehicles to "go down with the ship" like English sea captains. You can build a tank in a few days. It takes MONTHS to build a tank CREW.

Even badly hampered by Stalin's purge of the military, Soviet forces utterly crushed the Japanese. It was the first example of large scale surrenders by Japanese troops in modern history, many of whom knowing they could never return home, switched sides.

The JAAF (joined by naval aviators) was slowly destroyed in a war of attrition which it could never win, aircrews flying repeatedly in a day to the point of exhaustion, while well rested Soviet pilots flew in rotations.

The Japanese finally threw in the towel and were grateful for the opportunity. The Soviet-Japanese non-aggression pact followed, which allowed Stalin to shift troops west to counter the German invasion in 1941, saving the Soviet Union.

Look at it this way: The British "beat" the Germans in 1945. I'm not sure they're much better off than the Sioux and Cheyenne or my Apache relatives. At least there are Indians who still want to BE Indians...

Garry Owen

__________________
4th SQD 7th CAVALRY

Corrected. Thanks.

__________________
Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

Why would Indians EVER ride in a circle around their objective? Thus making themselves targets like ducks in a shooting gallery.

This is another techniqe that probebly originated in hollywood cause it looks 'kewl'. Somehow I think the Indians were smarter then that.

what a great discussion, mother and i have been there nine times since 1970, the place never ceases to amaze me and the aura for me is always the feeling of "something is in the air".we were there for the re-enactment this year and it was great, i was in shorts and a t-shirt and i tried to imagine having full wool and full gear on, not.

Not unlike the Japanese, Custer believed the individual superiority of his soldiers would overcome all.

Hi:
A question about the Gatling Guns slowing down the Cavalry.
Didn't the British pack their Gatlings and Cannons on mules and camels to keep pace with their Cavalry?
Just a thought.
Jimmy

Custer left all his excess gear with the baggage train to move quickly. Custer was worried that the Indians would get away without a decisive engagement. His goal was to move fast, engage, and reap the glory with only his 7th Cavalry. I don't think the Gatling guns would have made any difference, anyway, the way the fight unfolded. There was no time to deploy the weapons. Something that many people forget, too, is that every 3rd Trooper would move to the rear to hold the horses. There was probably total chaos as the Troopers tried to hold off the hostiles, dismount, secure the horses, set up a defensive position and try to achieve some organized defense. The Indians were among them before most of this happened. The unit was scattered all over the hill, with the largest group of about 50 Troopers (with Custer) only making it half-way to the top.
Bob

Well, for all his heroics in the Civil War, Custer was in actuality a murdering SOB. I have read and re-read the fine book, "Son of the Morning Star" and have concluded that most of the post civil war army generals were pretty much only interested in the genocide of the Native American population. Unfortunately the Native American leaders of the time were to trusting in the leaders in Washington, DC. They had no idea that the only thing that was really important to the government at the time was...."manifest destiny" at any cost. This was the true reason behind both the War with Mexico and the Indian Wars.

Welcome to the Forum, great first post.

__________________
Sure you did

Yes, welcome indeed.

Those who care about righting these wrongs against Americans who happen to be of Native blood, and removing the stain upon the honor of the United States Army that arose from these events, can do two things:

First, support recision of the 20 Congressional Medals of Honor that were awarded to participants in the subsequent massacre at Wounded Knee. Second, demand removal of the battle pennant commemorating the actions against Native Americans in South Dakota from the ceremonial Army flags on which it is still flown.

These things happened in a different time, and need to be forgiven. How can they be when these official acts continue as a constant affront to all Native Americans, and especially to those who served and gave their lives under the flag of the United States?

Hoka hey!


Bullseye

The thing which ultimately defeated the Indians was their failure to comprehend the nature of the struggle. Right until the end they fought the war with the United States on traditional Indian terms without attempting to take the fight POLITICALLY to the enemy. This sometimes achieved tactical victories, but the was doomed to strategic defeat.

The novelist Thomas Berger wrote a book called "The Indians Won" in which the Indians play the White man's game and win. They make deals with the European powers in exchange for modern rifles and artillery and defeat the US Army, creating a separate Indian nation.

Did not mean it as a correction......It was used more as a mustering call for the old 7th.
For example- we never said Good Morning,night afternoon etc we just said Garry Owen (in passing). We used to joke and sing Please Mr. Custer -I don't want to go, whenever we were sent on a scouting assignment....

__________________
4th SQD 7th CAVALRY

I was lucky enough to get to see the battlefield in 1992. As most I am still in yow after seeing it. I have read that lots of the troops were new barely trained. I wonder if that had anything to do with it.
I could have spent a week there!!
dick44

I have also visted Rock Island Ill. It is where all the Indian Guns were taken after the 1876 battle. After the grass fire in the 1980's
people combed the site for artifacts. The last time i was at Rock Island it had been proven that 25-30 guns out of a hundred or so
had been used at the battle. I went there to see if I could find the
graves of Elmer Keith's Uncle's he said that died in the prison camp
I had no luck. they must have been taken back to Mo.This info was in
Keith's book Sixguns.

dick44

I saw "They Died With Their Boots On" before I knew there was a "Custer" or "Bighorn". The movie is highly dramatized and glamorized with very little truth, but then a lot of movies are that way.

But that movie started me reading about Custer which eventually led to reading about the American West and all facets of it.

I still enjoy the movie, for its actors and actresses, as well as the nostalgia.

Little Bighorn/Greasy Grass was indeed a huge victory for the American Indians, but as stated here it was pyhricc [spelling?]. It actually was a catalyst which caused the majority of the United States citizens and government to stop quibling over the "issue" of the American Indians. They decided to round all of them up and place them on reservations, all across the country. It became so.

As far as the military of the time period being "butchers" and commiting atrocities. One must remember they were acting on orders from the United States government which was acting on the desires of the people of that nation. As a fact many officers of the U.S. military were sympathetic to the situation of the American Indians but they knew the outcome was inevitable. So they followed orders and in the process tried to ease the burden thrust upon them.

As an example, Kit Carson was not the "enemy" of the American Indians that currently is so popular in revisionist history. He tried as hard as possible to get the Navajo to surrender peacefully because he knew full well what would happen. After they were moved to the hell of Bosque Redondo he worked hard to have them be returned to their homeland. He was successfull.

The history of the Indian Wars is painfull to read and harder for many to understand. But it was inevitable. The different cultures were just not going to be able to live side-by-side. In some/many instances there are small stories and indications that it could be done, but by and large, the outcome was inevitable.

Sadly many of the American Indian tribes today are still in dissarray because of the past history. I wish we all could change that. I do not know how.

__________________
Have guns...will shoot'em.

People can say what they want about Custer and the 7th Cavalry, but there is one thing for certain; there are no cowards in the 7th, never have been, never will be. And that's my final word.

YouTube - Garry Owen - 7th Cav Ia Drang tribute

jag312,

Deadon!!

There were no cowards period, on either side that day. Brave men and women fought hard and died hard.

__________________
Have guns...will shoot'em.

It's a little known fact that Colonel Harry Flashman VC accidentally shot Custer during the Battle of Little Big Horn!

[See Flashman and the Redskins for the true history of this battle. Col. Flashman was the sole survivor. Related in the Flashman Papers, discovered and complied by George McDonald Fraser.]

-- Chuck