A question for any Korean War vets

[Jessie]

For any who fought in that War, are the stories of .30 carbine rounds not penetrating the enemies quilted jackets true?
I ask because everyone tells of how the 9mm is pretty potent these days and the .30 round is about the same weight and diameter, but going much faster.
I'm sure it happened, but was it a regular occurrence or rare?

[diamonback68]

Right era, but I can't help, I was Navy. Others will chime in I'm sure.

[SteveA]

My Dad never directly said that though its a tale I've heard often. He has an intense dislike for the carbine though, equating it to "throwing rocks". He started with an M-1 rifle in 1943 and though an officer in Korea, continued to use the rifle.

[Usmc5811]

Wasn't my generation but in the book " The Coldest War" I remember that being mentioned that they had trouble getting rounds to penetrate their padded down jackets that was worn. A very good book also, but I don't know how factual it is. Gotta love Chesty Puller saying that when the they were surrounded that he had them right were he wanted them. Another man I would have loved to had a beer with and listen to his stories.

[Dennis The B]

When I was a sophomore in high school, our ROTC Professor of Military Science, an infantry major, was a Korean War vet. He stated to us that he switched from an M2 carbine, to an M1 Garand. He stated firmly that the carbine round wouldn't reliably penetrate the Chinese Communists' quilted jackets.

I've also read this in a number of magazine articles.

[sigp220.45]

That was before my time, but these guys tried to put it to the test:

The Box O' Truth #36 - Frozen Clothing And The Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth

I suspect those "stopped" shots were misses, but who knows. Maybe the extreme cold affected the ammo somehow, but a normal carbine round shouldn't have been stopped by quilted fabric.

There is a quote in the comments section from an Army report which may have started this belief. In it they cite instances where the carbine bullet penetrated, but didn't stop, a determined aggressor. I can certainly believe that.

[Dennis The B]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

...
I suspect those "stopped" shots were misses, but who knows. Maybe the extreme cold affected the ammo somehow, but a normal carbine round shouldn't have been stopped by quilted fabric.

There is a quote in the comments section from an Army report which may have started this belief. In it they cite instances where the carbine bullet penetrated, but didn't stop, a determined aggressor. I can certainly believe that.

There were also a couple of crusty MSGT's who stated that the Chi Coms were tough to kill, even with the M1 Garand. Cold certainly numbs the skin, and I'd suspect that in those sub-zero conditions wounded may not bleed as profusely.

[jarhead1178]

I was Marine grunt in Korea, carried BAR for a while. Good weapon but heavy. After I got rid of the BAR I carried a M-1 until i was wounded and evacuated in October 1952 . M-1 performed well, as I remember we carried armor piercing ammunition. We heard the carbine was not well thought of but only machine gun ammo carriers and mortar men carried the carbine. Also officers had forty fives and carbines. Never saw one fired in a fire fight, still don't think they were as bad as people claimed. I was shot with a chinese burp gun which is a small caliber and it put me in the hospital for over a year.

[DWalt]

Not a KorVet (way too young at the time), but I did have a close friend, now deceased, who was, and got shot up pretty badly in the conflict. He said the stories about the .30 Carbine not penetrating the quilted Chinese clothing were pure Krap. He said every one he shot went down and stayed down. But he wasn't at the "Frozen Chosin". He also said that his Combat Masterpiece got him out of a couple of close-up nasty situations. I have always felt those stories about failure to penetrate is because the shooter missed. From personal experience, a carbine bullet will shoot clean through a telephone post. Do you think an inch or so of cloth padding would stop it?

[fordson]

Had an Uncle who was a Korean War vet. Machine gunner, heavy weapons platoon, 25th ID. Wounded on Old Baldy just before the armistice was signed. He was issued an M-1 carbine, but traded it for a M-2 as soon as he could. Told me he taped two 30 round mags end to end; said it wiegthed a ton, but never let him down when he needed it. Said some old timers would tell storie about the 30 carb round bouncing off the quilt jackets but in his personal experience, it never happen.

[Wyo]

I'm not a vet but a book I read recently mentioned the problem several times. "The Last Stand of Fox Company" is the story of a Marine rifle company at the Frozen Chosin. According to the author, they had numerous failures to stop with the carbine and everyone that had a chance to dumped the carbine in favor of a Garand. I didn't get the impression that lack of penetration was the problem. More like the heavy clothing combined with the extreme cold combined to make the little bullet less effective. I've noticed over the years that most of the guys I talked to that liked the carbine were WWII vets from the Pacific. They shot mostly smaller guys with lighter clothing. Most of the people I knew that didn't like the carbine served in colder conditions and often opposed bigger enemies. Never met anyone, though, that thought the Garand was ineffective or lacked power.

[oldRoger]

I was there but I have no direct experience to relate.

My Uncle was Regular Amy and fought in Africa, Italy, and Europe, he was Artillery (105s) and carried a 1911 and a Carbine.
I expressed my second hand opinion about the inadequacies of the Carbine and its round. He told me that it was a good weapon with an adequate round. Far better at a distance that the .45. He told me that it was too bad it did not have a heavier faster load, but it served the purpose for which it was intended.
He said it was a very good rabbit gun and he had fresh rabbit many nights because of it.
I would take my Uncle’s word about weapons to the bank.

The light relatively slow carbine round just is not going to do rifle round damage. An expanding bullet would make a big difference.

[Chuck24]

Ask anybody who doubts the stopping power to put on heavy, quilted clothing and let you take your carbine and shoot at them!

[LostintheOzone]

I don't have any first hand experience in Korea but I have a 30 carbine and I shoot it often. Never did any penetration tests with it though. My feeling is it would put you down even with an inch of insulated clothing at 100 yards. Beyond that I would seriously be looking for something else. The main problem as I see it is the 110 gr bullet at 1900 fps. That's a pretty slow light bullet for an infantryman to rely on. In a jungle it would be a perfect weapon. I've read that the USMC actually used carbines 2 to 1 over garands in the pacific. But again, I wasn't there.

[Old 44 Guy]

I was in the National Guard Infantry out fit for 6 years. We never went to Korea as we weren't called up.I carried a M-1 Garand but my mortar squads were armed with M-1 Carbines. Most qualified with the Carbine but had some problems with the Garand. Most of my friends long that were there agreed with the M-1 Garand. Mud, dirt, cold, didn't give much trouble. One friend told me he peed on his M-1 at Chosin Reservoir to get it firing again, bolt was frozen. Just my opinion.

[DWalt]

The French used the M1 Carbine with great success in post-WWII French Indochina (later called Vietnam). Later, during the U. S. involvement in Vietnam, a great many M1 and M2 Carbines were in use by U. S. forces, and also the RVN military. They were perfect for use by the smaller-statured Vietnamese soldiers. In fact, the Army actually had some number of new .30 Carbines made up, I think by Universal (not sure about that) for various special forces use there. Based only on muzzle energy, the .30 M1 Carbine round is nearly the equivalent of the 5.56 NATO M193 round. But energy does not necessarily translate to effectiveness, as the .30 Carbine bullet does not destabilize and break up in tissue as does the M193 bullet.

[HOUSTON RICK]

I would not like to be hit by any of the weapons mentioned above. There are no doubt a lot fewer Chinese in the world today due to the carbine, and I doubt the Chinese often knew (or felt) the difference.

[DWalt]

The Carbine, at least at the beginning, was intended only to be a replacement for the .45 pistol, for issue to those personnel who would normally be issued a pistol - rear area troops, support personnel, operators of crew-served weapons, officers, etc. But its use eventually extended far, far beyond those, and still the .45 pistol stayed in service in great numbers. While the main superiority of the .30 Carbine was its ability to hit at far greater distances than the pistol, at least in the hands of the average soldier, and in a light, handy package, it was never intended to be a replacement for a full-caliber battle rifle, such as the Garand, which fired a heavier bullet at a much higher velocity - therefore having much more devastating terminal effects and a longer effective range. Any head-to-head comparison of the Carbine to the Garand is unfair. While the Carbine had its good points (had it not, there wouldn't have been more of them made than Garands during WWII), it did require better marksmanship and more precise bullet placement than the Garand, and at closer ranges, from its users to achieve its full performance effectiveness.

[cmort666]

In .351 or .401 Winchester SLR, the Carbine wouldn't be bad at all.

[J. W.]

I wasn't there, but the physics don't add up. While I seriously doubt the carbine was failing to penetrate, I find it totally plausible that rounds were failing to have the immediate desired effect.

Couple that with carbine armed infantrymen witnessing the much more powerful .30-06 putting the enemy down quickly and effectively, it is understandable how this rumor got started.

[the ringo kid]

Originally Posted by Wyo

I'm not a vet but a book I read recently mentioned the problem several times. "The Last Stand of Fox Company" is the story of a Marine rifle company at the Frozen Chosin. According to the author, they had numerous failures to stop with the carbine and everyone that had a chance to dumped the carbine in favor of a Garand. I didn't get the impression that lack of penetration was the problem. More like the heavy clothing combined with the extreme cold combined to make the little bullet less effective. I've noticed over the years that most of the guys I talked to that liked the carbine were WWII vets from the Pacific. They shot mostly smaller guys with lighter clothing. Most of the people I knew that didn't like the carbine served in colder conditions and often opposed bigger enemies. Never met anyone, though, that thought the Garand was ineffective or lacked power.

My dad wasn't infantry but, army air corps/ USAF. In Korea, he was stationed with a weather detachment on some hill somewhere. Anyway, he carried a .45 and a carbine, loved both. I don't know if he ever fired any shots in anger in Korea? but he loved both guns. Before his stuff was stolen from us 25 years ago, there was a large photo of him bringing in around 12 or so chicoms who surrendered to him. It was a funny photo, all the coms were bigger than he was. He was 5 ft 3, and in WWII, was a ball turret gunner.

[Sayoc01]

My Dad was in WW2 & in Korea.Fought in the Pacific in WW2 as an officer.
Sent his weapon home with ammo in cosmoline in a large box.My Uncle stored it away until 1956.Dad told him to get rid of it he said he never wanted to see it again.Told him,I wanted it....he said...son... that's a killing weapon,bad memories, never want to see it again... end of story ,it's gone!

[Harkrader]

This is certainly not going to settle the issue:
In the mid-'70s I had a friend who said he did "snoop and poop" in Korea. That meant he was part of a team that ambushed North Korean troops. They used South Korean spotters.

His gun of choice was the M1 Carbine, and I think he said it was commonly used by the team. He did say he felt it was not particularly accurate, but that they were shooting at short ranges (!).

He also said that the barrel heated up rather quickly and seriously degraded accuracy. He recounted one instance when his team was almost overwhelmed by a larger group of soldiers than they had thought they were attacking, and he was shooting as fast as he could pull the trigger. He said his South Korean spotter suddenly dropped to the ground and crawled back behind him, saying his bullets were hitting all around him!

[DWalt]

About the best grouping one can expect from any stock Carbine is about 4" to 5" at 100 yards (5 shots). That's plenty good enough for the purpose for which they were intended. A Carbine is most definitely not designed to be a long-range target rifle. There are some people who claim to be able to "accurize" them, but I don't know how that's done. Or why anyone would want to. I don't know from personal experience about the "seriously degraded accuracy" statement, but I suspect that may be a wee bit overstated. In any stressful situation requiring rapid firing while someone else is shooting back at you, I think most any rifle would seem like it has seriously degraded accuracy. Sort of pray and spray time.

[amazingflapjack]

I saw the one Audi Murphy carried recently on that "arsenal" show on TV. That's as good a recommendation as I would require.

[LostintheOzone]

About the best grouping one can expect from any stock Carbine is about 4" to 5" at 100 yards (5 shots).

Yes sir, about 4-5 MOA. Anything better is unusual. I've shot mine enough to know that part is true. Some of them won't do that as the barrels were used up a long time ago.

[Kernel Crittenden]

I have a Rock-Ola. Fun to shoot, and a joy to carry. Love it. Bought it a little over 10 years ago from some guy carrying it around at a gun show. $550 IIRC. Arsenal refinish so it looks great, practically new, but I know collector interest is diminished. No import marks, though

(generic internet image)

Regarding the M1 Carbine's performance in Korea, I wonder what the Chinese thought about the Carbine. Are they even aware their quilted jackets supposedly stop Carbine ball ammo? With the "Bamboo Curtain" down, and the internet and everything, I'm a little surprised we haven't heard more from the Chinese perspective.

I've read a number accounts that the Germans held the Carbine in high regard, though they were somewhat perplex that the magazine capacity was limited to only 15 rounds. The US developed 30 rd mags late in the war, but they never really made it to the front lines in the ETO before the fighting there ended.