Anyone Like old Lee-Enfield Sporters?

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Ghost_and_the_Darkness,_The

Here are a pair of Lee-Speed hunting rifles. Speed was a man's last name, although I forget what role he played in the rifles' development.

These were less expensive (usually) than the Mauser-actioned rifles for more powerful cartridges, and they took the full ten-round military magazine, if you might have trouble with natives or a pride of lions. (The lower rifle here has a five-shot sporting magazine.)

The .303 is effective on most African antelope, leopard, even larger animals, with expert use and good bullets. Bell and others killed elephants with rifles like these!

One was used by Val Kilmer as Lt. Col.Patterson, VC, in a movie depicting the killing of the Tsavo man-eaters. ("The Ghost and the Darkness") The real Patterson, in fact, did use a .303 sporter very like these. I have his book about that adventure.

The upper rifle has a long rib on the barrel, a feature that I could have lived without.

I've never seen one of these in person, but would like to have one made on a No 1 MK III action, if I ever make a fortune writing books or win a sweepstakes. They're definitely classier than the later sporters made up by Parker-Hale. I have seen and handled those.

Well, here they are: part of the romance of a bygone era in hunting and exploration.


T-Star

There's precious little I don't like about those rifles.
Whether as sporters or military!

I love vintage English and European Sporting Rifles. These are no exception.

The proportions just seem to work.

Or as my friend and fellow gun enthusiast would say...Those really blow my skirt up!

The vintage Brit and European sporters are a true joy. The Afrikaaner farmers used to hunt with rifles in military configuration. Sadly I have only one Enfield, a No.4, Mk II in non modified condition. I have deer hunted with it successfully several times.

Charlie

nice very nice. my jungle carbine shoots 174 sierra match with 45 gr. imr4350 into 3/4 in. all day. it is scoped and has a bolt on vintage s&k mount.

My father-in-law bought a No.4 Mk1 years ago from a Roses Store. It's a Savage with a 1942 date on it. He said by the time they stopped giving all the discounts he thought they were going to pay him to take the rifle. Sadly, he died before he ever got the chance to shoot it.

This is an old topic and Imdb deleted my photo link. To see the sporters, try the movie gun link and look under guns used in, "The Ghost and the Darkness."

Also, if you followed the Australian-made series, "Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World", Rachel Blakely, playing Marguerie Krux, had a .303 sporter probably made up in Australia after the 1950's, as it had a Monte Carlo stock. It resembled the Parker-Hale postwar sporters. A villain on that show in the episode, "Trophies" had a sort of Bubba'd No.1 MK III sporter just made by cutting down the issue stock. (Lord Roxton had modern hunting rifles. I thnk one was made on a P-14 action and another may have been a Sako Safari Grade.)

The genuine sporting rifles made usually before and soon after WW I were much classier than the later Parker-Hale items , and had better checkering and stylishly shaped stocks. I just saw on Gunboards that a genuine original in nice shape may now bring easily over $1,000.

A few years back I saw a Lee-Speed sporter at the Houston gun show. It was every bit as gorgeous as you describe, and priced accordingly.

Hunted with a jungle carbine in Pennsylvania, have a #4MKII and a sporterized long branch #4 MKI thats waiting for me to bed the forestock.
Love the enfields. Frank

I like original, unmolested #1MKIII's. A nice Ishapore 2A or 2A1 is usually a good shooter, too.

If you don't have at least one, you're missing out. Love 'em .303 SMLE, built like a Mack truck, drives like a Rolls Royce, stone cold killers for ANY game on the planet.

Cheers;
Lefty

I have a Mk 4, #1 (or is it the other way around?), good shooting rifle but too long and too heavy to carry in the woods.

I'm seriously thinking about seeing if I can get it converted to a short 45-70; a box magazine Enfield in 45-70 would be the shiznit for hunting hogs.

Kilmer's rifle, was if I recall correctly, a commercially made .303 sporting rifle from the start, rather than any sort of conversion of a military rifle. Today in the United States when we see the term "Enfield Sporter", many people will think of "sporterized" Enfield military rifles as made by Goldenstate, et al in the 50s on through modern times (such as the application of ATI stocks). However, originally there were British gunmakers - who were sometimes busy making military rifles on contract to the government - that would turn out commercial rifles of good to best quality on the same action as the military was using at the time. These guns will be significantly more expensive compared to later "sporterized" specimens. Though from time to time a bargain can be had when someone doesn't know what they have.

My own Enfield Sporter is part No 4 Mk2, part Jungle Carbine, and part misc bits of wire and screws.

FTG-05 said:

I have a Mk 4, #1 (or is it the other way around?), good shooting rifle but too long and too heavy to carry in the woods.

I'm seriously thinking about seeing if I can get it converted to a short 45-70; a box magazine Enfield in 45-70 would be the shiznit for hunting hogs.

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Please don't do that. Too many have been butchered, and those in original military condition are becoming more scarce and valuable.

I think you'd find the recoil unpleasant, and feeding might be unreliable, too. Just buy a normal hunting rifle in .30/06 or a similar caliber, and I think you'll be fine.Leave that SMLE for posterity; it's a piece of history. Don't ruin it. You might think of restoring it if the condition needs that. New wood, etc. in standard configuration.

Gator-

Yes, Val KIlmer's .303 rifle in, "The Ghost and the Darkness" was a commercial Lee-Speed sporter. BSA and others, probably even Holland & Holland, made these on the service .303 action. Except that they used the .303 action, not a Mauser '98, these were much like other fine British hunting rifles of that day. It is probably very like the .303 that the real Patterson had, and which he mentioned in his account of the incident, "Man-Eaters of Tsavo."

W.D.M. Bell had one, as did John Alfred Jordan, author of, "Elephants and Ivory." Both used other rifles, but found the .303 very effective. It wasn't clear in Alexander Lake's books if he used the sporters at times or the military version. He said that he was on a rifle team in South Africa and shot in matches and had several .303's, with which he also hunted.

However, I've heard it said that Lake may not have been all that he appeared to be. Without being able to confirm either his accounts or rumors to the contrary, I won't risk further speculation. But I didn't read of him doing anything with a .303 that I consider to be unlikely. I did think it very odd that he suggested using softnose ammo on elephant, with the idea that he could shoot one in the roof of the mouth and it'd penetrate. Elephant seldom offer such a shot when charging, and the man whom he criticized for using hardnose ammo was probably right to do so. He just needed better marksmanship and a heavier rifle. As was, I think he got stomped into the red African earth so effectively that his remains resembled nothing human when found. Elephant hunting is not for amateurs. He probably had military ammo, too, and the bullet was designed to yaw, to create more severe wounds in human targets. You want a more true course with the bullet when hunting heavy game! Also, the frontal brain shot on elephant must strike a pretty small gap in the skull. It requires sound knowledge of elephant anatomy and cool, precision marksmanship.

I also doubt Lake's assertion that one should shoot hippo in the water through the nostrils as they yawn at you, in a threat display. Even from the deck of a lake steamer (which was involved in the event that he described) getting the right angle for that seems unlikely. Maybe that's one of the cases where a softnose bullet into the roof of the mouth might work?

My only .303 now is a service No. 4 MK II made by Fazerkely Arsenal in 1952. It's in nice condition, and I have NO plans to "sporterize" it. It has a white rack number painted on the butt, so I guess it saw active service. If I ever get a .303 sporter, it'll be made up like one of those built as a hunting rifle from scratch by a famous British gun maker about 1920. It'll be built on a No 1 MK III action. But unless I start selling bestselling novels like Jack Higgins or John Sandford do, it'll probably remain a dream.
Still, if it's ever done, it'll be done right. My name isn't "Bubba."

FTG-05 said:

I have a Mk 4, #1 (or is it the other way around?), good shooting rifle but too long and too heavy to carry in the woods.

I'm seriously thinking about seeing if I can get it converted to a short 45-70; a box magazine Enfield in 45-70 would be the shiznit for hunting hogs.

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It's the other way around! The No. 1 is the basic short Lee-Enfield. The No. 2, I don't know about, maybe experimental. Rifle no. 3 is the Pattern 14 Enfield, a Mauser system.

I ran a thread a while back about a guy who walked into a local gun show with an 8 3/4" registered magnum that had belonged to his grandfather. Had the certificate and tube, and an old shoulder holster as well.

He was also carrying an old rifle, the likes of which I had never seen before. I could tell him about the RM, but I sure couldn't tell him about this one, though it was obviously a Lee action of some sort and an old one at that. Well I'll be darned but I learn from this thread that it was a Lee-Speed sporter, and a really nice one at that. This one was in .303 and was probably in about 90% condition with a really fine piece of wood, excellent checkering and very tasteful engraving. It was clearly built from scratch as a sporter - it was not a converted military rifle. I may have to give that ol' boy a call and see if he'd like to part with it. I've never been that crazy about SMLE military rifles, but this was one cool British sporting rifle!

My only 303 is a 1915 issue No. 1 MkIII made by Lithgow. It still has the mag cut-off and volley fire sights. I ordered it from Hunter's Lodge over fifty years ago. It cost $9.95 and about $3.00 for shipping via Railway Express.

Texas Star said:

Please don't do that. Too many have been butchered, and those in original military condition are becoming more scarce and valuable.

I think you'd find the recoil unpleasant, and feeding might be unreliable, too. Just buy a normal hunting rifle in .30/06 or a similar caliber, and I think you'll be fine.Leave that SMLE for posterity; it's a piece of history. Don't ruin it. You might think of restoring it if the condition needs that. New wood, etc. in standard configuration.

[snip]

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I hear you. I already have a 30-06 (a Springfield 03-A3 that someone "sporterized well before my father bought it back in the early '70's). 45-70 is what I want.

Anyone have a 45-70 Enfield they want to trade for a No. 4 Mk 1?

If you can find an already sporterized Enfield, then there is really no harm in resporterizing it into a .45-70 or whatever you want. Assuming that it is a safe conversion of course. I've heard of them being made into one caliber or another, though not that often. The cost of the conversion, unless you're handy and have tools laying around would probably make it seem like a good idea to see if a Marlin Guide Gun would suit your needs first.

Not that I can talk. I have a Carcano that I am determined to one day make into a .35 Remington.

I think Navy Arms Co. used to offer converted SMLE's in .45/70.

You might look for one. Be a lot cheaper than converting one.

Good luck.