I hunt nowadays on TV. I've seen some things that disturb me. A little while ago I watched a hunter's crowing about a 900 yard shot on a bear. Yesterday I watched one kill a deer at 794 yards. I remember when 60 Minutes did a hatchet job a Bison harvest. All was according to the needed management of the herd but "Guns of Autumn" used selective clips to make for a blood-thirsty leer at hunting. Hunters, as unfair as it seems, must be on best, no better, behavior than other sportsmen. Last Fall I found a sack full of discarded Doves. It and the long-range dead-eyes sickened me.

As a teenager I shot up the paper-hulled shells that were swollen by duck hunting. The seasons were out but nothing was ever said about Grackles so they were fair game. Sometimes a couple of shots would down a dozen or two (my mother could make a Blackbird pie that would shame Swanson). On one such outing a huge rabbit bounded from under foot. The Model 12 rolled it up before I could think. It was a cold, rainy, February day and I was afraid I'd get caught by the Game Warden whose house I had to pass as I walked home. A ten-point buck would not have been any better hid than that rabbit. I got clean away with my first and only crime. I would have if I'd kept my mouth closed. I made the mistake of telling a woman. At supper one of my sisters blurted out that Butch killed a rabbit. I grew up sans father and my mother thought me too big so I got no whipping. Later that night my mother drove the '50 Buick as close as she could get me and waited as I went into the woods with a flash light. I unburied the bunny and brought it back to the sound of a running motor. After all the trouble, the girls were the only ones to get some of the game I killed and dressed in the rain.

I hope there are ethical hunters out there that will speak up when they see the hunt abused. I hope that our avocation won't go the way of paper hulls.

it's not just hunting, it is America in general, very few have morals anymore

I guess I don't get it.. Are you saying it's unethical to shoot anything from a distance? Or are you saying to not shoot sacks full of doves, or to bury rabbits?

The only thing I hunt is human shaped pieces of paper.

And I pick up and properly dispose of said paper when I'm through poking holes in it! I promise!

I'm not talking about target shooting. I'm talking about the ones who shoot a sack full of Doves and then throw the dead birds into the trash.
I'm not talking about Camp Perry but I was taught all my life not to take anything but an ethical shot which means one that I am danged sure that I can make a clean kill the majority of the time. A 900 yard shot in the wind is not one that can be made most of the time. I might can make one but not for sure every time. My .280 at less than 300 yards, in the open, in good light, at a standing target was doable. I'd rather it be under 200. The rabbit was my only crime. I would not take the shot today. Dub Spencer the warden is no longer with us and I hope the Stat.O
L has expired because I couldn't afford to pay the fine.

There are only two basic reasons to take an animal- for food/use or protection of your crops, property, other animals or yourself or other people.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

What stunned me the other day was someone told me her boyfriend hunted turkey and when I asked how she liked wild turkey, she said, "Oh, we don't eat them. We just cut off the beards."

That's not hunting; it's simply killing.

I hunted in Mo.to feed my myself and my family.Nowdays i shoot steel,cans and paper.And pick up after myself.

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WALSTIB

I eat everything I shoot. I understand what Butch is talking about. A bad shot on a deer is bad enough, a bad shot at 700 yds........Good luck finding that animal.
In my short 42 years here, I've seen hunting go from a social gathering, to a hobby, to an industry, to an elitist activity. I still like to do my hunting the old fashioned way. We actually have fun doing it and put food on the table.

I have hunted all of my adult life and I am a trophy hunter I believe in ethical hunting fair chase and the animal is utilized sometimes by native people as in Africa, sometimes donated to needy people such as the sportsman against hunger program.

I do not need to explain myself to anyone any more than you should have to answer to an anti gun nut who does not understand your gun collecting, competitive shooting or just plinking and thinks all gun people are homicidal or put another honest gun ownership is an oxymoron.

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Len

Boy, this discussion always opens a can of worms.

Ultimately, what is "ethical" is a decision made by the individual hunter. You have to make the decision as to when you will take game, how and why you harvest it, and what to do with it. After all, hunters are often alone when those decisions are made.

Hunters go through stages, and some get stuck in one stage or another. I have a close friend, an older gentleman. He follows the laws on game in the absolute strictest sense, and I honestly believe he would turn me in himself if I intentionally broke a game law. But he is a numbers guy. He will not quit hunting until he gets his limit and will get pretty extreme in his attempts, again within the law. If he doesn't get his limit, he is quite disappointed. He never evolved past that particular stage. He is ethical, but I think his hunting philosophy is a little misguided sometimes.

I will no longer take game with a rifle. For me it became too easy. Easy to the point that I no longer considered it ethical - because I could do it at will and got no "rush" or excitement from it. Same with birding with a shotgun. Too easy. I will only handgun hunt with traditional handguns now. I use adequately powerful guns for the game I'm hunting and limit my shots to 50 yards or less. If that becomes too easy, I guess I will just quit. But rifle hunting can be a real challenge for others. Am I ethical? Are they?

There are folks who can make ethical shots at extreme range. They've done the homework, spent the money for the right equipment and put in the range time. They can hit the target demonstratably and repeatedly at extreme ranges. Then there are the ones who just send volleys of "Hail Marys" in the hopes of getting lucky. Which is ethical?

There are varmint hunters who certainly don't eat what they shoot. Ever seen a skinned coyote? I ain't eatin' it. Are these hunters ethical?

Peer pressure, the area you hunt in, and the traditions you were raised in will all play parts in what may be considered as ethical hunting in your circle. But ultimately, if you follow the game laws you have to decide for yourself what is ethical. You have to sleep at night and look at yourself in the mirror every morning.

While there are limits we can probably all agree on, we run the risk of becoming divided if we judge too harshly in the hunting fields. And hunters today can't afford that...

Sounds like someone was watching that "Best of the West" trash. Technology is great, but when they show people shooting at 700+ yards with a borrowed rifle which they state that they have never fired before, someone needs a beatdown. That's not hunting. I don't care how much you've practiced long range shooting, and how whiz-bang your computerized Huskemaw long range scope is, there are too many factors out of the shooter's control at those ranges to be flinging lead at any living, unwounded four legged thing.

I watched a segment on the Outdoor Channel, (Dish 153) where this guy was trying to shoot a deer at ~ 1K yards with a 50 BMG round, well, he did, finally and he was all hyped up about it! Shot the 4 pt(eastern count) Mule Deer in the neck at 919 yards, and he said the 5 mph cross wind was of no consequence. He was aiming for the chest and of course, hit the deer in the neck. If the deer was facing the other way, the shot would have been in the midabdomen. That would hardly have been a clean kill. He was lucky but still an idiot.

These people need to be more educated and not be allowed to make "documentaries" that would encourage other clueless idiots to try and match their "performance"

BTW, I like shooting long distances to put holes in paper, not living creatures, unless it's Osama. Considering my age that is unlikely to happen but one can hope!

I have a responsibility to the animal I'm harvesting. I owe it a clean quick departure, treat the carcass with respect and don't waste it.

One of the maddest I've ever been on a hunt was when a fellow came back to camp and laughed about wounding a deer in the hams. Me and my hunting partner went out and found it. It was still alive and suffering, poor thing. We quickly dispatched it, loaded it up and brought it back for the guy to tag it.

He was steamed, but screw him. He shouldn't have pulled the trigger on it. He shot first and asked questions later. It was a fork horn, and was was wanting a 4 X 4. He should spend more time sleeping and less time getting drunk, keeping the rest of us up in camp.

Those are the guys I hate.

As a hunter safety instructor, this is alot of what I see in the classes now. Even the state is going away from ethics in the course of kids and even adults getting their hunter safety certificate. Alot of kids and parents have asked me about shooting deer from a box blind, they have watched the shows where two guys are looking over a whole herd and hear the guide say "not that one, not that one, that one there." Another thing is this video game mentality. Not saying video games are good or bad, but in some people, they have the reaction of desensitizing kids. An excellent book is Col. David Grosman's "On Killing". I wonder with all of the Cabela's Big Game hunting games and things like that, are these kids and even adults blending reality. Myself, I hunt primarily for meat and population control. We find here in the Adirondacks and in NY an increase in new hunters, but every year the whitetail harvest is dropping and the revenue from licenses is continuing to go down. Kids are people are taking the course, finding out what is really involved, and then not going out in the woods.

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Vaya con Dios

It is also illegal to waste game in most jurisdictions.

I am an avid hunter, yet there are many things about hunters that I deplore. There are the obvious sins that we can all agree upon (wasted game, incompetence with a weapon, etc.), but beyond that, at least to some degree, we have to honor free choice (as always, within the law) as ethics are not always black and white.
I don't like box blinds amid herds of ranch-raised deer, but I support your right to participate in hunting if that is what is available to you, is legal, and is what you choose to do.
I have no desire to shoot an animal in a tree after it has been chased there by dogs, but I would never criticize you for doing so.
I eat what I shoot, but if you don't like venison yet enjoy deer hunting, by all means participate and find a way to donate or give away the meat.
I don't much care for Boddington-like characters who kill their umpteenth African whatever to test the latest $5,000 rifle that was custom made and given to them - but I support their right to do so.
I treat my game animals with respect and reverence, all the way through the butchering and preparation steps. I believe myself to be law abiding and ethical as far as I personally understand ethics in my approach to hunting, but I stop short of judging those whose approach or methods may differ from mine - I kinda think that is the American way (or should be).

"Ethical hunting: an oxymoron"

The problem I have with the thread title is that it implies all hunting is not ethical!

Over the years I have met and shared camps with a lot of hunters and the vast majority of them are ethical. Like in gun ownership there are a few who spoil it for everyone else. The vast majority of hunters want to preserve the sport for future generations and in many cases it is due to hunting revenue that game still exist in some areas.

I have no more interest in watching someone else hunt on TV than watch a sports event I am a doer not an observer, and honestly a lot of the TV hunts are a poor representation of what really takes place. The characters that force a charge to get a exciting footage do more damage than good to the sport. Its kind of like the guy who shot himself in the head at a local indoor range a few weeks back in front of a CCW class leaving brain matter all over the shooting booth it makes people who have no interest in guns wonder about the sanity of those of us that enjoy them but he is certainly not representative of gun owners.

A long shot to me is 500 yards on non dangerous game with a good solid rest and the right rifle. But while I do not agree with it I do not criticize those who have the skill and equipment to shoot at greater ranges truth be known a lot of them are more deadly at those ranges than some hunters are at 100 yards. On dangerous game the thrill comes from getting really close 25-30 yards.

If your into one shooting sport you should support all of the honest gun related sports and if you don't like hunting don't hunt.

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Len

Leonard, you failed to see "?" I did not mean to imply hunting to be unethical. Rather that "to whom much is given, much is required". The hunter, like the shooter, must avoid giving the "antis" a reason by behavior that is at best questionable and sometimes outright crime.

I used to see some folks putting cigarettes in the mouths of dead deer, baseball caps on them, etc., and taking photos. I thought that was unethical.

I also think it's unethical to hunt seals with clubs, and to kill dolphins for any reason (they are the only creatures other than humans who are aware of their own mortality, according to many scientists).

I also agree that this discussion opens up a ginormous can of worms

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Aaron Terry

I guess I've outlived my expiration date. I honestly thought there could be no debate that 700 yard shots at deer or wanton waste of game are not right. If a mod is looking in, please lock or delete. I meant no harm.

I dont fuss about long range marksmanship applied to the task of killing game. after all, Elmer Kieth is on record as having done so over 500 yards with a wheelgun.
If the skills are there to back it up, I have no problem with extended range hunting. Its about knowing your limitations as well as those of your arms.
discarding game .... its not particularly illegal, but D@&$*it that critter gave its life taking its place in the "FOOD CHAIN" ..... there must be a special place in the fires of hell for those who do not respect this

butchd, ? noted.

The problem is that in every endeavor, business, sports, gun sales, collecting, etc there are people who are unethical. In some cases they get caught and prosecuted.

In hunting as I am sure in a lot of other sports there are varying opinions as to what is ethical in terms of, range, fenced in hunting, baiting, stand hunting, etc. BUT NO ONE CAN CONDONE THE WASTE OF EDIBLE MEAT, OR LEAVING A WOUNDED ANIMAL WITHOUT MAKING A REAL EFFORT TO FIND AND FINISH IT. Unfortunately wounded animals do occur and some are never found.

In the hunting community we have the Safari Club Int. and within the organization there is an ethics committee a number of members have been thrown out over the years over their actions. Most recently a so called PH who took advantage of his clients and produced totally disgusting videos in an attempt to make himself a hero. This last convention his booth rights were revoked and hopefully his membership.

I think enough has been said.

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Len

Bighorn sheep found with head cut off

Bighorn sheep found with head cut off

Two Desert Bighorn sheep found shot near Apache Junction.

Tags for Bighorns are like gold, I don't believe this was a hunter.


More like a ___________________ fill in the blank.

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My Mother likes me.

No Barb that's just STUPID!
I have a guy that I work with that hunts deer the same way.
MORON

For me a quick clean kill -on the spot- is what counts.
Personally, I do not shoot any animal at a distance over 180m/200yards.
I know my limitations and I do accept local hunting ethics and will not
kill an animal for fun.

The taking of a life ( in this case even an animal) is something not to be taken lightly. But just as there are wasters of my oxygen who abuse children, who shoplift, who throw their McDonald's wrappers out the window, who cheat on their spouses, etc., etc., etc., . . . . it's only those who are around them when they do these things or confess them that have the power to impart any small amount of shame these cretins might possibly feel. The behaviors described here mostly don't qualify as "hunting" in my book and the taking of 'trophies' while leaving a carcass to rot when the meat could be put to good use should be a crime ( and is in some areas), the dispatching of varmints not withstanding.

And just as there are idgits (WV word ) that should not be allowed to vote, drive or procreate but unfortunately do, there should be those who are denied a hunting license that won't be.

An acquaintance of mine while hunting several years ago observed two young men shoot a doe during 'bucks only' season, obviously shooting at only a 'deer' they couldn't readily identify. This was apparent since after they reached the animal and saw it had no horns, they proceeded to walk away from the carcass. I've wondered several times about how he handled it as he opened himself up to possible prosecution (luckily didn't happen) or retaliation (didn't happen), but he ran them down and very forcefully 'persuaded' them ( in the vicinity of his 30'06) to go back, retrieve the deer and to carry the animal out the woods and put it in their truck while calling the game warden to meet them. They were on private land and the violaters were also trespassing. Don't know if I would have done the same but you can't argue with the results - both of the offenders were fined and lost their guns and the right to have a hunting license for 5 years.

Bottom line - anti-social, boorish, and many times illegal behavior only proliferates because public shame and outcry is quickly becoming a thing of the past, depending on the political correctness of what or who is being criticized. For some of us, right is still right and wrong is still wrong. A return to ethical standards in many things is sorely needed and is lost by gradual erosion. Just like many rights we have enjoyed in the past that seem to be more and more in jeopardy with the fickle breezes of 'popular opinion'.

I keep hearing CCW classes are easy to pass so I have to ask....









Did he pass?

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I miss my 4546 the most.

Oh yes he passed first try

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Len

As a general rule, I think that hunting any big game animal at long distance is un-sporting and unethical. I am unsure where to draw the line at distance but it also depends on the animal being hunted. For instance, I think that taking a 300 yard shot at a deer or an elk is too far - why? Because at that distance the animal has no defenses, neither sight, nor smell, nor sound will tell the prey that a person has a long range rifle pointed at it. If it doesn't have the "sense" available to give it an opportunity to run or hide then you're not hunting, you're just killing.

Now the same might not be true for American pronghorns because it's pretty much impossible to get really close to one of them absent very special circumstances. ICBW, of course, but I think 250 and 300 yard shots are typical due the pronghorn's amazing eyesight out on the plains. Possibly, hunting various sheep and goats up on mountain sides might have similar factors that dictate long range shots. I do not personally like to see a mountain goat shot at 400 yards just because humans cannot climb closer because at that range I'm pretty sure they have no clue they're being hunted. But the terrain factor at least supports the concept of the long range shot; otherwise, I would still think it's un-sportsmanlike.

None of the above matters on feral hogs. They should be shot on sight, at any range, because they're a menace to everything - period. Fire at will.

Varmint hunting is different, too. But it's mostly done for the purpose of killing predators, rodents, etc. Longer ranges under those circumstances don't offend me as much as it does with typical big game.

Sidebar: Isn't it always open season on rabbits? Maybe not....but it probably should be.

***GRJ***