Alabama church shooting-Shocked by the offender

[Muley Gil]

Having spent 25 years in law enforcement down in 'Bama, I always read weather reports and crime stories from the state with interest. Last night, there was a shooting at a potluck supper at a church in Vestavia Hills, a Birmingham suburb. Three senior citizens were shot, with one reported dead at the scene, and later reports revealed that a second victim had died.

On Friday night's national news, the third victim had died and the offender was identified as a 70 year old man. Then his name and picture were shown. That was the shocker, as I have known him for over 45 years. He was a gunsmith and had owned a shop for many years. I have bought guns and holsters from him.

Now I haven't seen in over 20 years and don't know what has changed in his life, but I sure never thought he could commit such a heinous crime.

Oh, and I also know the captain, Shane Ware, that gave the press release. I had helped train him when he was a rookie cop and working at my PD.

70-year-old man charged in Vestavia Hills church shooting that killed 3 - al.com

[biku324]

What an awful thing to happen in God's house with folks you know.

[boykinlp]

MG, I hate to hear that. Let us know if you hear what changed in him.
Larry

[schutz5]

Some very bad mojo has been released in our country.
The death cult at the helm.

[ladder13]

Some people you never really know I suppose. What an awful thing.

[NFrameFred]

I don't want to be responsible for the thread being locked so I cannot say what I normally would and I feel confident many here feel the same way about what's going in these times.


But (treading carefully) I am convinced there is a spirit that has been loosed on the world that defies conventional thinking and solutions. Those that know, know. Many of those that do not unfortunately are blinded to it and many choose not to know.

[quikdraw67]

Wow MG, that hits close to home.

I wonder if we'll ever get the backstory to why someone would commit murder against elderly people.

[john14_18]

I live not far from where this happened. The suspect had an FFL and did transfers for a friend of mine who actually had picked up a gun the same day of the shooting. He said the suspect had always been very laid back and friendly and he had used him for years. Apparently, at the potluck supper he was sitting by himself and was approached by a fellow member to ask him to join their group at their table. He declined, but when the person became persistent that he set with them, he pulled out a gun and started firing. I don't know what happened but something set him off. You never know what is going on in people's heads , but obviously he had some deep rooted problems. He was captured alive so maybe he can tell them why he did it. No matter what the reason, there is no excuse for these senseless killings.

[Bald1]

Originally Posted by NFrameFred

I don't want to be responsible for the thread being locked so I cannot say what I normally would and I feel confident many here feel the same way about what's going in these times.


But (treading carefully) I am convinced there is a spirit that has been loosed on the world that defies conventional thinking and solutions. Those that know, know. Many of those that do not unfortunately are blinded to it and many choose not to know.

U mean , like a literal spirit? A boogie man? Or a change in attitude and demeanor in response to others deeds????? Again treading lightly

[pharmer]

Might be a "functional alcoholic." Looks like 2 previous "alcohol-driving offenses" in the distant past. Alcohol will make you think things you don't want to think, say things you don't want to say, do things you don't want to do, and go places you don't want to go. Joe

[two-bit cowboy]

Gut-wrenching.

[TEXASJake]

Look up the term ... "Behavioral sink" as it is associated with John B. Calhoun. Specifically, his work in the late 1950's and early 1960's about overcrowding and violence .... Now ... I know this was in a suburb and is not overly populated "physically" ... but look at over-population as a function of "information input". We are all bombarded EVERY DAY by news, Television, phones, email, texts ... Think how you feel "crowded" by the world. Even if you are alone on a farm, I think that technology can make you feel "crowded".

[Bald1]

Originally Posted by TEXASJake

Look up the term ... "Behavioral sink" as it is associated with John B. Calhoun. Specifically, his work in the late 1950's and early 1960's about overcrowding and violence .... Now ... I know this was in a suburb and is not overly populated "physically" ... but look at over-population as a function of "information input". We are all bombarded EVERY DAY by news, Television, phones, email, texts ... Think how you feel "crowded" by the world. Even if you are alone on a farm, I think that technology can make you feel "crowded".

Jake, that all makes sense to me. And was kinda what I was alluding to…… however if one chooses not to be bombarded with “NOISE” it is easily accomplished. Turn off the devices. Go sit in a treestand. Hell , sit in your living room, but BE alone. I think it is an excuse for weak minded individuals.

[Beemerguy53]

For years now -- decades, really -- American society has been sliding downhill, with people doing whatever they feel like doing, whenever they feel like doing it. Laws, regulations, social conventions, standards of decorum and behavior, no longer apply. This happens all across American society, among almost every demographic group, regardless of age or political party or philosophy.

Public conduct and actions that would have been unthinkable only a generation ago are the norm today. There is no respect for the law, or lawful authority. People lash out violently with little or no provocation, or with no good reason, and rationalize it because they think they have some special cause, some particular beef, that exempts them from behaving like civilized adults.

I feel like I'm watching a pact with the devil play out...

[Muley Gil]

Evil exists in this world and many don't or won't admit it. I have looked into the eyes of evil men and seen no soul inside.

[lihpster]

Originally Posted by Beemerguy53

For years now -- decades, really -- American society has been sliding downhill, with people doing whatever they feel like doing, whenever they feel like doing it. Laws, regulations, social conventions, standards of decorum and behavior, no longer apply. This happens all across American society, among almost every demographic group, regardless of age or political party or philosophy.

Public conduct and actions that would have been unthinkable only a generation ago are the norm today. There is no respect for the law, or lawful authority. People lash out violently with little or no provocation, or with no good reason, and rationalize it because they think they have some special cause, some particular beef, that exempts them from behaving like civilized adults.

I feel like I'm watching a pact with the devil play out...

I can't remember who said it but I heard something that expresses this idea perfectly. Talking about how people act today the man said, "These people are offended by everything and ashamed of nothing.

[ameridaddy]

Originally Posted by john14_18

...You never know what is going on in people's heads , but obviously he had some deep rooted problems. He was captured alive so maybe he can tell them why he did it. No matter what the reason, there is no excuse for these senseless killings.

Brain tumor maybe? The Texas tower shooter had one IIRC.

[Rustyt1953]

Muley, I am sorry that this unforseen and as yet unexplainable weight has been placed on your heart.

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by NFrameFred

I don't want to be responsible for the thread being locked so I cannot say what I normally would and I feel confident many here feel the same way about what's going in these times.


But (treading carefully) I am convinced there is a spirit that has been loosed on the world that defies conventional thinking and solutions. Those that know, know. Many of those that do not unfortunately are blinded to it and many choose not to know.

Truth, amen.

[fiasconva]

At his age I would wonder if dementia of one kind or another was the reason. My step dad's dementia caused him to be very paranoid and combative as his progressed. He was a gentle giant and the nicest guy around until his dementia hit.

[Rustyt1953]

Originally Posted by fiasconva

At his age I would wonder if dementia of one kind or another was the reason. My step dad's dementia caused him to be very paranoid and combative as his progressed. He was a gentle giant and the nicest guy around until his dementia hit.

Distinct possibility. We watched Ruthie's mom and dad suffer and then pass from dementia.

Gerri just retreated deeper into herself while Earl morphed into a horribly angry man prone to sporadic fits of violence.

[lihpster]

My father is a very peaceful and agreeable man 99.9% of the time. But sometimes he just comes for me. The fact that he's weak enough that I can stop him without hurting him is a blessing and a terrible reminder of how far he has fallen. The fact that he doesn't remember it at all 5 minutes later is soul crushing.

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I wonder about drug use, both recreational and these so-called medicines.

[TEXASJake]

I think it is an excuse for weak minded individuals. .... Not sure I would be that strong in my assessment. I look at what is needed to live in today's society. Yes, you can sit alone and you can un-plug. I try to do that as often as possible. But just pick ANY news channel and try to watch the news and get caught up on the day's events. Try and just go our to eat or go anywhere in public and you are bombarded with the fast pace of change and the over-stimulation. This forum is an oasis of targeted information and like-minded individuals (for the most part), but we can't live in a bubble. We need to make a living, interact with others to eat and make a living. I know it sounds nice to turn off the phone, not read email, not watch the news ... but the phone and email are how I make a living and if I turn them off, I would have to find a new job. And those revolvers don't pay for themselves.

As for some of our employees, I relish in them sometimes. They make a VERY good living sitting in a piece of heavy equipment. They are not bothered by the minute-by-minute always-on-call that you get trying to run the business ... but it is all a trade off.

All I can say is, as a society, we seem more stressed now than we did in the late 70's early 80's when I was young. And those older than me, probably remember an even less stressful time in society. I don' think we can go back to that ... but it is nice to dream.

[venomballistics]

Originally Posted by Bald1

U mean , like a literal spirit? A boogie man? Or a change in attitude and demeanor in response to others deeds????? Again treading lightly

If there is such a thing, It could account for it. But if we study the past, MK Ultra and it's pharmaceutical industry embedded splinter projects, one could find other possible causes.
Still another ... political tensions are plenty high.

[venomballistics]

Originally Posted by TEXASJake

I think it is an excuse for weak minded individuals. .... Not sure I would be that strong in my assessment. I look at what is needed to live in today's society. Yes, you can sit alone and you can un-plug. I try to do that as often as possible. But just pick ANY news channel and try to watch the news and get caught up on the day's events. Try and just go our to eat or go anywhere in public and you are bombarded with the fast pace of change and the over-stimulation. This forum is an oasis of targeted information and like-minded individuals (for the most part), but we can't live in a bubble. We need to make a living, interact with others to eat and make a living. I know it sounds nice to turn off the phone, not read email, not watch the news ... but the phone and email are how I make a living and if I turn them off, I would have to find a new job. And those revolvers don't pay for themselves.

As for some of our employees, I relish in them sometimes. They make a VERY good living sitting in a piece of heavy equipment. They are not bothered by the minute-by-minute always-on-call that you get trying to run the business ... but it is all a trade off.

All I can say is, as a society, we seem more stressed now than we did in the late 70's early 80's when I was young. And those older than me, probably remember an even less stressful time in society. I don' think we can go back to that ... but it is nice to dream.

You're not wrong.
Even just a bit over a decade ago, civil political discourse with opposing views was still possible. Doesn't seem that way today.

[Doug M.]

As to this fellow, some form of dementia seems as likely as anything. I too have seen folks become totally different as a result. My MIL had some pretty hard times and odd behaviors as a result. Not as bad, but ...

As for society in general: I call it Spoiled Brat culture. The fools who want to do anything that suits them without considering how it impacts others, etc. Street racing, drifting, rioting and calling it protesting (something that did not in fact happen the way it was presented) (which I see from various places on the political spectrum, it is not isolated to one flavor or another, but I'm treading on the edge of something so don't follow me); fighting cops; assaulting others simply because they look or think differently, etc.

[Lt JL]

I have taken to a new seat in church, one where I have a lane to every entrance. I've also switched from a Model 40 to a Glock 17 as church equipment.

[The Last Standing Knight]

Originally Posted by Beemerguy53

For years now -- decades, really -- American society has been sliding downhill, with people doing whatever they feel like doing, whenever they feel like doing it. Laws, regulations, social conventions, standards of decorum and behavior, no longer apply. This happens all across American society, among almost every demographic group, regardless of age or political party or philosophy.

Public conduct and actions that would have been unthinkable only a generation ago are the norm today. There is no respect for the law, or lawful authority. People lash out violently with little or no provocation, or with no good reason, and rationalize it because they think they have some special cause, some particular beef, that exempts them from behaving like civilized adults.

I feel like I'm watching a pact with the devil play out...

BINGO!

I've written about this not only here but in other places as well.

[ironhead7544]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

Evil exists in this world and many don't or won't admit it. I have looked into the eyes of evil men and seen no soul inside.

Understood.

Evil stalks the earth.

[jeffrefrig]

MG, so sorry you have to see an old friend basically end his freedom as he knew it to now be turned into a scientific study, as he probably will be hospitalized for a while. While it's no consolation to the deceased ones' families, or to you and others who knew him, I hope they find what spring unsprung in his head, so to speak. May God help all involved.

[RobertJ.]

Originally Posted by Beemerguy53

I feel like I'm watching a pact with the devil play out...

You may very well be.

Listen to Paul Harvey's broadcast from around 1965 titled, "If I Were the Devil". It's like a play-by-play description of what we've seen since then.

[Beemerguy53]

Originally Posted by RobertJ.

You may very well be.

Listen to Paul Harvey's broadcast from around 1965 titled, "If I Were the Devil". It's like a play-by-play description of what we've seen since then.

Well, without getting deep into the weeds on Biblical predictions (I was speaking metaphorically when I wrote about a "pact with the devil"...)

Here in Baltimore, for many years we had a local radio talk show host by the name of Ron Smith. Very interesting guy: high-school dropout, former Marine, broadcast journalist, exceptionally well-read and self-taught about many, many things, and possessed of a keen intellect and brilliant mind.

He took a relentlessly logical approach to issues, and couldn't be pigeonholed ideologically. Liberals accused him of being a right-wing nut (he was a staunch 2nd Amendment supporter) and conservatives accused him of being a loony leftist. He never pandered, and his views were sometimes unpopular, but he always called it as he saw it.

Smith was a student of history, and pointed out regularly that all societies and cultures go through phases, the last of which is that they self-destruct and disintegrate. Some, like the Roman Empire, last more than a millenium, others only a few years. He had a passion for economic theory, and used to point out that deficit spending, and the accumulation of debt that can't be repaid, inevitably results in catastrophe. Watching what was taking place in our society, across the board, from the top to the bottom, he used to quip that the USA was morphing into the Republic of Absurdistan.

Ron Smith died of pancreatic cancer at age 70 in 2011. I think of him often as I watch what's happening to our society now...I can only imagine what he'd be saying if he were alive today...

Ron Smith (radio host - Wikipedia)

[delcrossv]

Originally Posted by ameridaddy

Brain tumor maybe? The Texas tower shooter had one IIRC.

That or antidepressants. A number of them have psychotic break as a side effect.

[Muley Gil]

I read a Yahoo story this morning where a witness stated that Smith was drinking from a small bottle of Scotch before the shooting took place.

That's still not an excuse for what he did.

[Eagle 477]

I think thats most of the problem, when there's a pill for everything when a long talk with a close friend or even a complete stranger that will listen would work

Rob

[venomballistics]

Originally Posted by Eagle 477

I think thats most of the problem, when there's a pill for everything when a long talk with a close friend or even a complete stranger that will listen would work

Rob

Pill culture is my theory behind a lot of this stuff.
Side effects are sometimes quite serious with SSRI's and related meds. Between the patient sucking it up because they want it to work, and Dr's that ignore them because >degree on the wall< and kickbacks, bad can happen.
One could read up on some of the remaining MK Ultra project.
The only reason the then CIA director was able to say the project was a failure was because nothing worked with any certainty on any front. It does not mean the occasional killbody wasn't produced with side effects in some of it's splinter projects.
Here in the wild, this body of work should alert us all to the possibility that these things can happen, intentionally or not.

[venomballistics]

Originally Posted by Beemerguy53

Well, without getting deep into the weeds on Biblical predictions (I was speaking metaphorically when I wrote about a "pact with the devil"...)

Here in Baltimore, for many years we had a local radio talk show host by the name of Ron Smith.
Ron Smith died of pancreatic cancer at age 70 in 2011. I think of him often as I watch what's happening to our society now...I can only imagine what he'd be saying if he were alive today...

Ron Smith (radio host - Wikipedia)

He and others who have passed lived in this era through cause and effect analysis. On some level, it's their good fortune that they don't have to live through it twice

[Beemerguy53]

Originally Posted by venomballistics

He and others who have passed lived in this era through cause and effect analysis. On some level, it's their good fortune that they don't have to live through it twice

"Cause and effect analysis"...what a great way to put it! That's exactly right.

For some reason I will never understand, many people are incapable of logical, objective evaluation of facts...everything has to be seen through an ideological prism. I have friends on both sides of the political aisle (I am a committed independent voter) who are so partisan that if their favorite politician strangled a puppy on live television, they'd find a way to rationalize it.

Take the whole subject of "gun control", for example. There are -- literally -- Zip Codes in Baltimore that have more shootings annually than some entire states, despite Maryland having some of the strictest gun laws in the country. And yet elected officials here refuse to talk about the elephant in the room (fatherless homes and a culture of violence) and insist on blaming the crime rate here on the "easy availability of guns" or some such nonsense.

There is a Facebook page dedicated to Ron Smith (Team Reason) where his fans keep his memory alive. Yeah, I can only imagine what he would be saying today...

[venomballistics]

Originally Posted by Beemerguy53

"
There is a Facebook page dedicated to Ron Smith (Team Reason) where his fans keep his memory alive. Yeah, I can only imagine what he would be saying today...

my best guess .... "Told ya so"

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

I read a Yahoo story this morning where a witness stated that Smith was drinking from a small bottle of Scotch before the shooting took place.

That's still not an excuse for what he did.

Not surprised.

No it’s not.

[sigp220.45]

I wouldn’t overthink it. Mean drunks shoot people all the time.

[biku324]

And for no reason whatsoever.

[Beemerguy53]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

I wouldn’t overthink it. Mean drunks shoot people all the time.

Yeah, but a guy who was "one of us"...and at a church...that's terrible.

[fiasconva]

What Ironhead7554 said. I've seen it from the time I was a youngster in the 50's and when I was teaching from the 70's until I retired. You would be surprised at how much evil existed even in some of the young ones I taught even before they hit their teens. There are some true psychopaths out there.

[Greyman50]

Dementia is a slow process of decline. My mother had it and then alzheimers for 14 years. I could not wish it on my worst enemy. My mother's house keeper, close friends and I could write a book on the disease.
This shooter would have “ acted out” other situations before the point he started shooting. Perhaps he had no family? or friends did not “ notice” bizarre actions. Sad, so sad.

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by Greyman50

Dementia is a slow process of decline. My mother had it and then alzheimers for 14 years. I could not wish it on my worst enemy……..

My mother was diagnosed @64 and passed @71. Horrible disease. I don’t take well to jokes or ignorant comments.

[The_Truth]

What a complete waste of human life. It's too bad the "suspect" wasn't taken out years ago so that presumably innocent lives could have been saved. Absolute scumbag. Hope he rots.

[Nevada Ed]

You NEVER know what is going on in a persons brain, with the way they are treated
or if they have had some bad luck, that upset them.

Just hope that you are not any where near this person, when the switch is turned on !!

It is NOT getting any better as we learn how to adapt !!

[LVSteve]

Originally Posted by john14_18

I live not far from where this happened. The suspect had an FFL and did transfers for a friend of mine who actually had picked up a gun the same day of the shooting. He said the suspect had always been very laid back and friendly and he had used him for years. Apparently, at the potluck supper he was sitting by himself and was approached by a fellow member to ask him to join their group at their table. He declined, but when the person became persistent that he set with them, he pulled out a gun and started firing. I don't know what happened but something set him off. You never know what is going on in people's heads , but obviously he had some deep rooted problems. He was captured alive so maybe he can tell them why he did it. No matter what the reason, there is no excuse for these senseless killings.

One wonders if there was previous history between the two.