A little old lady friend of my wife's from church contacted me a couple of years ago, knowing of my interest in guns. She said she had a gun that belonged to her late husband, and she'd like me to store it for her as she did not want to keep guns in the house. I'll show you photographs first, and then tell you what I have researched on it.









This 16 gauge double-barreled shotgun is of German origin and carries German Nitro (smokeless powder) proof marks at the base of each of its barrels, which are in the side-by-side pattern. Each barrel is stamped “Krupp Stahl” over the breech, which simply means that Krupp Steel was employed.

“G. Honold” is marked on one barrel, and “Ulm AD” on the other. Ulm, of course, is a city in Southern Germany.

G. Honold was in fact one Georg (pronounced Gay-org) Honold. He came from a large family of gunmakers who made firearms going back into the early 1800s. However, Georg was not a gunmaker, but a salesman. He sold firearms crafted by the many gunmakers in the Ulm area under his own name. He was active in the 1920s and 1930s. Although he sold many types of firearms, it appears that “drillings” (3-barreled guns typically employing two shotgun barrels over a rifle barrel) were most commonly sold. A double-barreled side-by-side is a not uncommon configuration, however.
This particular shotgun in all probability dates from the ‘20s or ‘30s. It features twin triggers which fire the individual barrels, automatic internal hammer cocking, and an automatic safety which engages when the breech is opened. It must be released before the gun can be fired. The gun has an unusual horn grip piece attached to the pistol grip of the stock.

It has decorative engraving on the receiver and trigger guard. The stock has been shortened and a cheap plastic butt plate substituted for the original, which was probably made of horn. This was probably done to fit a youth or a small woman. This would considerably diminish its value to any collector who might specialize in German long guns. The gun carries no serial number, which probably dates it more in the 1920s than the 1930s, when gun registration in Germany became the law. The metal and wood surfaces are in about 70% of original condition, with the understanding that the stock is really in only 25% condition given its unfortunate shortening.

As far as value is concerned, it is difficult to say. 16-gauge shotguns are not as popular here in the U.S. as they are in Europe; therefore its value as a sporting arm is not high, particularly with the very short stock. While the gun could probably be restored with a new stock, the original configuration would be very difficult and expensive to duplicate and would probably not be worth it. Few U.S. collectors specialize in European or German shotguns, so it would be difficult to sell in America. If it was sold to a dealer, the dealer would not offer much for two reasons. First, it would be hard to find a buyer, as this type of gun is not popular here. It would probably sit in inventory for a long, long time. Also, typically, a gun dealer would only offer 50% of what he thought he could get for it in order to make a profit.

Such a gun could be sold to an Arizona resident by an Arizona resident with no paperwork. If the gun was sold across state lines, it would have to be shipped to a Federal Firearms Dealer, who would in turn present it to the ultimate buyer. Federal transfer forms (back door gun registration) would have to be filled out, and the dealer typically would charge a fee (usually a percentage of the worth of the transaction or $20, whichever is more).

To a collector of such arms, the gun could have a worth (considering the stock modification) of ___to ___. The problem would be finding a buyer, and the expense that might entail for advertising. I would never expect to sell it for that to a gun dealer for the reasons already cited.

The street price for someone who might wish to buy it just as a curiosity, would probably be in the neighborhood of ___. As always, the value of a piece is always what the owner is willing to sell it for, and what the buyer is willing to pay.

OK, my esteemed and knowledgeable friends, I've pictured and described the gun as best I can. Help me fill in the blanks regarding value above! I need your help!

John

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The gun has some nice touches like sideclips, cocking indicators and a scalloped frame. I love it when all the screws run north and south! The top lever seems to be past center, so it may not be tight on face. Remove the forearm and see if the barrels move side to side.

It may be short chambered (2-9/16”) and not safe to shoot with 2-¾” shells (even if they chamber). Pull the barrels and take a photo of the markings on the flats and water table. It should provide lots of info like country of origin, the chamber length and probably a date.

edit: I believe that's a Greener crossbolt and it also has underlugs.

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"I also cook."

Is that a plastic buttplate, or a recoil pad? It looks thick in the pic.
What is the LOP? Easy to measure from center of front trigger to center edge of butt. Get a tape out. This greatly affects the value.

Chad gave good advice. NOTE what he said about chamber length- unless it has been punched out, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts it is 2-9/16.

It is what is known as a "guild" gun. Easier to Google that than for me to explain. Probably built by 10 or more different private gunsmiths who belonged to the guild.

Again, as Chad says, it can talk a lot if you can speak its language. Along with what Chad said, it is likely dated- the proof date. Look for that.

You are selling it short. It WON'T be difficult to sell. It just comes down to condition, that important LOP, and Bore and Mechanical condition.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

S&W Chad,

Thanks for the input - greatly appreciated. I removed the forestock, and the barrels seem to be quite tight. I think in the picture the thumbpiece seems more off-center than it is because of the angle of the picture. In actuality, it's pretty close to center.

I had not thought about foreign 16 gauge chambers possibly being shorter than their U.S. counterparts. Here's a picture of the markings on the barrel flats. Perhaps you or someone else can interpret them. I think I see Ulm and maybe Suhl proof marks - what else can the markings tell us?

Thanks,
John

P.S. I also see the "70" mark on the chambers. If that's the chamber length in millimeters, that works out to 2.756 inches, or 2 3/4". Are we in luck that it could chamber and safely fire U.S. standard ammo?

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Lee,

The length of pull is 13 3/4". The buttplate appears to be plastic; it's not a recoil pad. It looks professionally installed, even all around except for being a little proud at the toe. This could be from wood shrinkage over the years. I notice "8.20" over "21" on the flats with the proofs. Could that be the date of proof (i.e. 8/20/1921)? Here's a pic of the buttplate:

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I realize that there is no substitute for competent measurement, but are those 70's stamped on the barrel flats a metric-system way of trying to say 2.75"?

I believe the butt plate is made of horn from some type of African big game. My dad's .375 H&H has the same type of butt plate ( looks the same) and it is Cape Buffalo horn

Those are German smoothbore and choke proofs, but I can’t identify the anvil over U (or whatever it is).

I believe the year is 8.20 (August 1920).

70(mm) is 2-¾”, but it seems too early. Measure the chamber length just to be safe. I suspect it was lengthened and then re-proofed, but I don‘t know that.

The butt plate looks like horn, but I’ve never seen one that thick. Try the hot pin test and see if it’s plastic.

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"I also cook."

I think the plate is horn also. In the first pic, it looks 1/2" thick???

You are in LUCK- the 70's are chamber length, which means 70mm, which means 2-3/4".
VERY early for a 16 ga to be so chambered, since the gun is dated August, 1920.

That length of pull is not great, but could be worse. It could be lengthened by a user if needed, or left for a teenager or woman as you said, or just shot as-is if the other dimensions put the user "On".

Gun is still worth around 7-750, give or take a 100 or so. The pics don't show enough to grade closely, don't know bore cond, and they vary greatly by location.......

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee, I looked very carefully at the bore and chambers, and they are absolutely pristine - smooth, clean, no rust spots or pitting. The barrel length is 29"; I don't know how to determine the chokes on the barrels. The buttplate is indeed 1/2" thick - good eye! It scrapes to a brownish color, as you can see, so it might indeed be horn.

I did notice another set of proofs other than the Ulm proofs - crown over "S", which I would take to mean "Suhl". Would that be correct? If so, could it be possible that the gun was re-proofed with the then-lengthened chambers? And what would the "21" mean just below the "8.20"?

If the gun would be worth $750 to a collector of this sort of thing, what would be a fair price someone who just would like it as a shooter for a youth or woman? I know a dealer would have to offer far less.

Thanks,
John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I wish I were near you, I'd love to see that gun!

I believe that is a horn buttplate also. The hot pin trick will tell you whether or not its plastic. The brown streaks running up and down it look very similar to Cape Buffalo Horn grips I have on a custom Harold Corby knife.

I always liked the 16 gauge, very nice weapon.

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I hope I copied that right

John, we sold a lot of those types of guns guns in the $500-$600 price range within the past year. They were imported from Sweden after some sort of new tax made them very expensive to own. A large number were 16ga. and almost all had sling swivels and a raised cheek piece, very European. They were imported by the container load.

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John. SWCA #1586

Interesting! Did those recently-imported guns have import marks and serial numbers applied? This one is absolutely clean, with neither. I suspect it was a bring-back from WWII by the lady's husband, who was a veteran.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

John, the guns were marked with the importer's name with an electro-pencil. Done in an hard to see area at least. Here are a bunch of these imports at another dealer.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?...b578f8a73602a1

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John. SWCA #1586

I would give big odds that is a liberated gun from a wealthy german household. To a collector in germany, he would probley value it like we do a winchester 21 or a parker. I would try to find someone who can write german and goggle around and find some gun talk groups in germany for info. With luck, it just might spin your hat around what they would value it at!

Crown over S (that's a crown, not an anvil) means Smoothbore. Crown over W means choked barrel. Crown over U means Inspected (German for inspected is untersucht). Since only the left barrel is marked W, I'm guessing the right barrel is cylinder bore.

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I always take precautions

Yes, but what's that over the the "U" (next to the non-circled "16")? Doesn't look like a crown to me.

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"I also cook."

You guys are looking at the date wrong.In German 8 would be the day and 20 would be the month.Don't matter at this point about the 21.

DG

That's a proof house log number for that month and year.

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"I also cook."

That horn thingee on the pistol grip can be unscrewed, can't it? I suspect that most men with average to large hands would prefer the original configuration.

The grip cap is nice. German silver?

The bluing looks dull. Is there brown or maroon tone under the blue, if you take it outdoors or shine a strong flashlight on it?

Looks like a nice enough gun, if it fit the buyer or his lady or teen. If one hunts in a coat, the LOP might be quite okay. The M-1 Garand stock always seems a little short to me, when not wearing a parka. But many men like it.

I traded for a Howa 1500 with a synthetic stock that is a little short for me. (It was my DIL's rifle, and she wanted to swap one of hers for a good binocular.) I can certainly use the rifle,
but wouldn't have bought one with a stock that short. Unless it was for a woman or youth...or for cold weather use, when the coat can make a real difference in how a gun handles.

T-Star

Something else to remember....Your average Bayern was not that tall and long armed.More stocky and thick.

DG

If the date had all three parts to it, then yes, the day would be first. Today, for example, would be 3,9,10, instead of the 9-3-10 we would write. But if they just stamped it for August 1920, it would say 8,20

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I always take precautions

It looks like a J.P. Sauer to me.

That is a very nice gun. If the same quality gun were made in a style more appealing to U.S. shotgunners, it would be worth a considerable amount of money.

Alpo,I think your right. Thanks.

DG

I just looked closer at the pics and while the action looks like a Sauer, the engraving raises some questions. The gun is definitly German, but the fine english scroll engraving is not typically what you find on German built guns. German style engraving is a much heavier, deep-relief type.

I'd love to learn the history on this gun.

Thanks to S&WChad, who directed me to a German sporting gun site, I was able to definitively decipher the proof marks. Here's a photo of the marks again, together with my annotations for the significant marks:

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Darn good research, Paladin!

I realize this is an old thread and I ran across it while doing some research on Georg Honold. I have a double rifle made by his shop. I'm not sure why this is in a Smith & Wesson Forum thread but it is here and I think a few minor points need clearing. I have looked at hundreds of German made firearms in the last 40 years in this business. These guns and rifles and combination guns are guild made components and usually some where a mark exists as to the action maker, barrel maker, etc. (even the largest makers in Germany outsourced some parts) The barrels on this shotgun were made by Honold, The "H" on the barrels are his mark. For the Maker to put his name on the finished firearm a master gunsmith had to work in the shop. The components may have been 'cottage' industry/guild but the fitting and finishing was completed in Honold's shop. The barrels when submitted to proof were 16 bore and the barrel diameters 22 cm from the breech were between 16.65mm and 16.81mm. The "16" stamped under the "crown over 'U" mark ( the "U" mark stamp was broken that's why it looks strange. This was marked on all guns proofed and the stamp is often damaged. I have seen several guns marked during this time period from the ULM proof house with the same damaged stamp) indicates this dimensional bracket. If it were slightly larger it would be marked "16/1", smaller, 17/1. This bore dimension dictates what the proof charge will be. In this case the 1st proof load would be 14.7 grams of a potent proof powder with 56.6grams of shot that's about 2 0z! The second proof load would be 9.8 grams of the same powder and 37.7 grams of shot. If it survived these 2 steps it was again shot at the service load of 4.9 grams of commercial powder and 28.3 grams of shot, 1 ounce.
The original chamber length under the 1891 proof laws (the above is part of those laws) was not required to be marked and assumed to always be 65mm = 2.5". Unless specifically marked differently. The Crown over "R" on the L barrel (right in the picture) indicates reproof following repair or alteration, i.e. rechamber to 70mm. Marking the gauge and chamber the second time with the bore and chamber length in a circle.(usually found after 1924). My guess it was being exported as 2 3/4" chambers in continental Europe were rare in 16 bore. The date of original proof is Aug of 1920 and the log # 21for the month. Sometimes the amount of choke is indicated by giving the bore major diameter and the muzzle diameter in m/m can be marked anywhere on the choked barrel bbl. A very nice shotgun by a small maker. In 2012 this gun would not have much trouble making $1500-$1800.

The guild guns are very much appreciated by bird hunters especially, and the longer 29 inch barrels are a big plus. Upland guys like these guns because they are usually nice and light and well balanced, and are of good quality.

Among upland hunters, the 16 ga. has had a resurgence of popularity in the last 10 years or so. My personal go to bird gun is a 16.

The issue with the LOP can be corrected with a pad of appropriate thickness and weight.

I have a good buddy that has two 16 ga. guild guns--I believe one is a Honold. Both are excellent shotguns and get used quite a bit.

Sportclay's post is spot on. The gun had the chambers lengthened and was reproofed. This was not a shade tree job but done professionally--that's a nice, solid, useable gun, in a desirable gauge and configuration.

Ya gotta love this Forum!! This is what it's all about!!..

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP

Many thanks for the additional info! I appreciate it a lot. I am still storing the piece.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -