I was listening to a firearms instructor on the radio this morning. He said that a person with a knife, that is 21 feet away (7 yards), can stab you before you can draw and fire your weapon. On avarage. First time I ever heard this analogy. What do you guys think?

Its called the Tueller Drill after Salt Lake City, Utah Police Sergeant Dennis Tueller. Tueller discovered that a person with a knife could run the distance of 21 feet or 7 yards in 1.5 seconds. It has been around for awhile, I know our department practices it at the range when qualifying, and I believe in it since I have seen a demonstration of it performed.

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Vaya con Dios

I think its quite realistic. It has been observed in officer training for over 20 years.

U.S. Army knife fighting Rule Number 1:
RUN AWAY --- Get a gun or a friend with a gun - Return to the *knife fight*.

Surely they haven't changed that in the last 40 years.....

There are no winners in a knife fight - Only various degrees of losers!
Someone pulls a knife - You want distance - NOW. It's not time to draw your gun - Do that as you retreat.

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In dog years I'm dead.

I'm with Deadaye, that all depends on you being stationary while he lunges at you with a knife. I would have the barrel of my gun against his forehead, squeezing the trigger, while he is trying to stab my hiney. Cuz, I'm running. Knives just don't have enough range.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

Truer words have never been spoken.

Be safe.

See if you can find a copy of Calibre Press' video, "Edged Weapons". That may convince you. It did me.

It is important to get the rules straight before a knife fight.

My own experience with the 21 foot rule indicates it may not even be enough. We ran the drill a while back with an instructor class and most of the attackers made 30-35 feet before a single shot was fired. The modern security holsters are great for security but not much on speed. Knives are nasty things.

I'm not saying I don't believe, it's just the first I ever heard of it. But now I see it's old news.

I am a little quicker than 1.5 seconds draw and shoot. But that is knowing I am drawing to compete and not a last minute realization the I have to defend my life. Two totally different situations.....I know. I like the run then shoot option.

I have heard that 21 feet was based on the lenght of the room the demonstration was performed in. The actual distance is wider, like the previous poster alluded.
OZ

Remember that this is a uniformed officer with a duty rig on the OUTSIDE of his clothes.
Wonder what the numbers are for a tucked in shirt IWB or pocket carried arm, etc?

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War Eagle! '10 BCS & '13 SEC

The first rule of knife fighting is that there are no rules in knife fighting.

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Insert short witty words here

That's what Harvey said... to which Butch agreed...

Mas Ayoob discussed this at length some years ago and I believe he used it in his capacity in providing expert testimony in a precedent setting case.

One dynamic that enters into it that the common non-firearm type in-duh-viduals do not realize, is that people struck by pistol bullets such as 9mm's do not rise up and get flung back 5 feet, instantly dead, like they do on TV and in the movies. A psycho or druggie with a knife, a temper, and an attitude can do a lot of carving in a short time before he bleeds out if the brain or spine isn't hit . . .

Lesse now:
1. Tueller developed the drill while working at Gunsite, the drill was developed on a range because he was wondering about the practicality of knife vs gun. Probably with "range holsters". The average time I've observed from start to first round with regular (not high retention) duty type holsters is in the 1.5-1.75 range. And this is when KNOWING there was going to be a shooting situation.

2. The knife wielder can run forwards much faster than you can run backwards. And, as noted, a highly motivated individual is going to go much faster than Tuellers test subjects. The average time in a class I attended was 1.38 seconds for 7 yards.

3. Bear in mind the knife wielder isn't going to do a double back flip, kick twice and expire just beause they're shot, regardless of caliber. CNS hit excepted.

There are a number of videos on YouTube demonstrating just how quickly an assailant armed with a bladed weapon can inflict damage from 21 feet away.

There was an story floating around a while back that knives were one of the reasons the Hong Kong Police stuck with 38/200 for so long. In their environment an armed attacker had the drop and was likely using a knife from close range. In that situation they felt caliber was irrelevant so why not stick with the 38/200.

1.5 seconds would be the most time needed for an active knife wielder to get to you at 21 feet.

It sounds strange, but we were trained to respond to a knife attack by falling on our back and fending off the assailant with your feet and legs, all the while drawing and then shooting him right out of his shoes. Yes, if he's good you will still probably get cut but it would be mostly confined to your lower legs; if you stay on your feet and try to meet it like that, your face, arms, neck and torso are in easy reach.

We practiced it with some dummy knives and pistols and it is a viable alternative; not pretty by any means but it can get you through it.

One of the better discussions of the Tueller DRILL that I've seen. It's an experiment, not a rule. As others have stated, 21 feet may be a little late for a draw. When my LFI-1 class did the experiment (which you can not only reproduce in court, but maybe even get the jurors to do in the jury room), almost everyone, including a temporarily disabled person, beat 1.5 seconds. Now compare that to the time it takes you to react to a signal, draw and fire. That's more than 1.5 seconds for some of us.

Cjw3's method sounds like an excellent general response. Given an obstacle like a car or table, I might opt for running behind that if there was enough distance from my attacker to do it, meanwhile drawing. But who ever got attacked from 21 feet? Bottom line is that counting on a gun in the case of a knife attack is weak. A gun does NOT trump a knife when you're all cut up before you even get the thing out. Cjw3's response sounds like a good one for a man with a gun, and there is other training available in CQ combat.

Anyone who pulls a knife on you should be shot repeatedly until he is on the ground, but that's only if you're lucky enough to be able to do so.

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Formerly Model520Fan

I had a friend that I used to shoot with at his house. He had a target rigged on a dog run. The drill was the shooter stood 21 feet from the target, facing it. the assistant, on his own start, would grab the line and run, pulling the target towards the shooter. Drawing and trying to get two good hits on the target was very challenging and that was in my IPSC days. Doing it today from a duty rig would be much worse.

that is also assuming a quick incapacitation which is not very likely with handgun rounds outside a CNS hit.

You don't win if you get good hits on the bad guy but he slices you up like a Cuisinart before he expires.

I was trained that a knife was fatal to someone from 20 feet away.

I was also trained that DISTANCE is your friend when confronting an armed person.

But there is a great person of high intelligence always said that one should never bring a knife to a gun fight.

Well,
When I worked in uniform I carried a palm knife behind my mag pouch...And I wan't kiddin' neither

Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I bet you never went into a gun confrontation with a drawn knife either.

No Sir...


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

The 21 foot rule is not actually a rule. It's a guideline.

I think the 21 foot drill serves a bigger purpose than preparation for attack from a knife. In short, a gun does not make you invincible. If your situational awareness doesn't extend beyond your own personal space, you can be victimized as easily as the unarmed citizen.

Out
West

Guess none of youse folks ever watched "Deputy U.S. Marshal Raylan Givens". I saw him outdraw a guy that had his hand on his gun across the table.

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UNDER THE CONE OF SILENCE

21 ft in 1.5 seconds is more than doable.

I've tested this myself. Well.. I tested to see how long it took me to move 21 feet. 1.20 seconds. The thing is I started at the ready... Like I was running a race, crouched down ready to go. Still, 21 feet in 1.5 seconds is possible especially if the knife is already in the hand.

As stated by others, it would be hard to actually stop someone with a knife unless you had great shot placement. I'm a 230 lb guy who was moving at roughly 13 mph by the time I got to 21 feet. I'm going to keep moving forward even after being shot, and if I'm mad enough to be coming after you with a knife I'd probably still be in a stabby mood.

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- The Federalist #46 -

Good point. That's why moving AND shooting is important.

Some don't realize just how unprepared they are until exposed to something like the Tueller drill.

Most if not all state required CCW classes don't teach this. And some states don't require a class at all.

I think some have a false sense of security in thinking they are prepared.

I was first trained in using the ASP baton about 20 years ago. They talked about this and did a demonstration. They had two participants, a young police officer in uniform with his duty gun, and an attacker, me. They gave me a rubber knife and told me to start running and he would draw (First they asked if I wanted to personally check his pistol to make sure it's unloaded....well, duuhh, yes, I do). I'm not the fastest guy, and I really figured he'd be snapping it on me by the time I was about 3 feet away. Nope, if the knife hadn't been rubber it would have been in his chest before the gun was fully out of his holster. That convinced me.

No it wasn't. I know Dennis Tueller and have visited with him several times. It was based on young cadet officers drawing a S & W revolver from a duty holster with Level 2 Retention and getting a shot off before a person with a rubber practice knife could fake stab them with the knife. The AVERAGE distance for these young cadets was 21 ft. Dennis was the Sgt. in charge of range training at the time.

Using blanks in the revolver a cadet faced down range. Another cadet with the rubber training knife was at the off-side of the cadet with the handgun holstered about 90 deg. to the line of fire. The cadet with the handgun was to draw and fire as quickly as possible after seeing the cadet with the knife start to move. As it worked out, at distances under 21 ft. on the average, the drawing cadet was touched with the rubber knife before shooting. The conclusion was that under those conditions, an offensive person with a cutting instrument would be able to do great bodily harm ON THE AVERAGE at any distance under 21 ft. There would be exceptions to this situation.

Those cadets did not move while trying to draw and fire. Cadets trained to move, draw and fire did better with some practice. Cadets with exceptional reaction time obviously did better.. ......... About this time, it became common for us Instructors to teach students to develop their own "Tueller" distance and document it for future use if required in a court setting. One's "Personal Tueller Distance" should be developed on the range under the conditions that one carries a concealed firearm and with the firearm that is commonly carried. Use the same technique that Sgt. Tueller's cadets did; face down range, draw and fire when the 'adversary' starts toward you from the off side. Keep increasing the distance until the 'adversary' can no longer touch you with the practice knife. Video tape this procedure and you have documented "your" Tueller distance. Obviously, the practice 'adversary' should not be other than an 'average' person in physical ability.

So there is nothing sacrosanct about "21 ft.". It was a distance developed under certain parameters that may or may not apply to yourself. My personal "Tueller" distance has varied over my professional life from 18 ft. in uniform and with duty holster to 26 ft. as an older person in a light coat carrying concealed. Without doing the range work in documentation, the average person needs to be a little careful about dealing with the aftermath of a righteous shooting of another with a knife and then going to court claiming "he was within 21 ft. and advancing". ............ Big Cholla

why you think cops always blast knife wielders ?

not only the 21 foot deal but a knife or ice pick will generally zip right through body armor. body armor is designed to stop bullets, not knives

My two cents here:

In the discussed tests and training, the officer knows in advance that he is about to be attacked by a knife weiding person. In the real world, perception and reaction for an unexpected event will be longer for the officer than in field training..

There is also the additional factor that a perp is already knows to what exent he is willing to go to inflict injury. The officer never knows what that extent may be. In training, the attacker is going to stop with the initial contact and not continue to stab repeatedly.

My advice, FWIW, if a knife is pulled, shoot quick. Distance evaporates rapidly.

They showed this to us when I went through the academy. Scary stuff. So much so that I figured if I ever had someone come at me with a knife I'd start shooting when they got within about a half mile.

Some situations just beg for a shotgun.

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A closed mouth gathers no foot

Keep in mind that this past week, a Navy SEAL knifed a Somali pirate when boarding the pirated vessel. We don't yet know why he didn't just shoot him. Maybe a shot might have injured others.

I think we have here one reason why the .38 Long Colt was so ineffective in the Phillipines around 1900. A bolo-wielding savage attacking at close range wouldn't be stopped unless the CNS was hit, although the .45 worked better than a 38. Also, some of those guys were hyped up on weed and religious fervor. (Islamic) Same for the British experience in India.

I have written extensively for knife magazines for about 30 years and interviewed many custom knife makers. Both the Randall shop and the late G.W. Stone had letters from our troops who had literally beheaded enemy soldiers with one swipe fronm a seven or eight inch-bladed Randall Model One and the Stone equivalent Model A. Blade thickness is about a quarter inch.

I was in college, living with my mother,when her cat chased a stray bird into the house. (Mother was watching with the back screen door open, and the bird flew in.)

Not being able to do much else, I swiped at the bird as it ran across a room.I was using a Stone Model A, and the bird was literally split in half with one swipe. It was a little scary. That blow would have done very serious damage to a human, I'm sure.

However, the Roman Army decided that the thrust was much more deadly on average, and used their swords accordingly, when possible. The British decided the same after studying sword wounds after Waterloo.

If a decent knifeman gets you with a skilled thrust, you are in deep trouble. But a slash may also be incapacitating.
I once lunched with Col. Rex Applegate, who reminded me of the "hand cuts" advocated in his training of OSS agents. He was training men (and maybe a few women) to kill with knives, and some did just that, in Nazi-occupied France.

If someone pulls a knife on me, I'll draw, and if he even looks like he's moving toward me, we're going to see a "field test" of stopping power for whatever load I'm carrying in my gun! If the intent is a holdup or any incident in which the person with the knife has clear hostile intent (as distinguished from a clumsy drunk or someone who I might be able to talk out of using the knife, I'm shooting.
And the gun is coming out as soon as I see the knife.

Keep in mind that many shopping malls have cameras that may record what you do. That can be used for or against you, depending on what seems to occur on camera. And cop cars now have cameras, as you guys surely know.

T-Star