Twice in recent months members here, both LEOs I believe, stated that they were not supporters of the NRA because of the NRAs support of public sale of so-called "cop-killer bullets" back in the 1980s. Since this myth seems to still be abroad, I believe it deserves its own thread.

I had thought that the media's gross mis-portrayal of NRA's role as heedless of the safety of officers, and insistence on making the round available to everyone, had been roundly exposed. Apparently I am wrong.

I responded in both threads, probably too forcefully, for which I apologize.

But my gosh, people!! Can't you think for yourself? Why do you swallow obvious propaganda from sources you know are biased at best, and liars at worst? The internet has been around a while now, and, as they say, google is your friend. It doesn't take much effort to investigate all sides of an issue, and come to your own conclusion.

Short summary of the "cop-killer bullet" issue:

Someone developed a bullet that would defeat ballistic vests of the day. The media howled, invented the phrase "cop-killer bullets," and called for congressional action. Congress responded by proposing legislation that would ban any bullets that would defeat ballistic vests, including nearly every center-fire rifle caliber. NRA quickly and properly opposed the legislation. New legislation was written, with NRA input, and a law was passed that outlawed, for public purchase, the specific handgun ammo. However, the media and anti-gunners, very successfully apparently, portrayed NRA as being callous to LEO concerns, and as being a proponent of the purchase of the ammo by the general public.

If you wish to investigate this on your own, here is a good starting point.

GunCite-Gun Control: "Cop-killer" Bullets

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Georgia On My Mind

Unfortunately I still see this, and yes, amonge LEO's. Some who I work with and didn't own or shoot guns until they got on the job asked in academy about hollow point bullets going through vests and so on and so forth. Luckily our instructor who is also a serious shooter on the outside set alot of them straight, even so much as getting a donated vest to practice on. Personally I think the NRA is getting the wrong message out in this regard, and instead of letting Wayne Lapierre talk all the time, I feel we need LEO's who know something about the subject doing either some articles or videos to get the word out, because people have been using cops to get their legislation passed. You know even have TV cops like Goren from Law & Order spouting off about high cap mags even though he probably knows little better. SO the public misconception is out there, every since the whole Black Talon fiasco came out and Winchester caved in, something I wish they hadn't done. It was like they were admitting guilt.

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Vaya con Dios

I was hoping you'd get to the part where the legislation would just happen to ban "almost all center fire ammo" which you did. That's the part that steams me. Politicians that want to "save cops lives" actually want to ban all ammo. These same folks are probably in favor of border patrol LEO's using those non lethal bean bags while they are getting mowed down with real bullets.

Ignorance can be educated but stupid can't be fixed.

The leftist in the liberal media have the stage. They get publicity, right or wrong. All we can do is yell at the TV and turn it to a different station. It doesn't work because they're all cut from the same cloth.

Any time you hear anyone use the term, ask them exactly what it means. Ask them to define what a "cop killer" bullet looks like and how its constructed. They don't know.

Then go for the kill (sorry). Ask them the name of any one cop who has ever been killed by a "cop killer" bullet. They can't because there aren't any. Its just a phrase used by the anti gun crowd. Its cute and it has a ring to it.

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Dick Burg

Redlevel you're certainly right, there's no excuse (today) for believing propaganda. However, back in the late 70's and early 80's, when all this was going on, we didn't have the Internet. In fact Google wasn't formed until 1998. The media, via TV and newspapers, controlled the stories were heard. And the NRA did a poor job of explaining its position. Things have changed. We not only have the Internet but we have forums such as this where people can exchange ideas and information. What's really amazing is that so many people, from different parts of the country, can come together for a commen cause. We differ at times, sometimes get mad at each other and don't always agree, but these things happen in every family and if you belong to this forum you are a member of the family.

And IIRC, the first vests were easily penetrated by a 22 long rifle round. Did they try to ban the 22 at that time??

It's worse than portrayed above. What the Commie media did was publicize the fact that a lot of LEO's were wearing soft body armor. At the time, while this was not exactly a secret, it wasn't so widely known, and lots of saves were not publicly attributed to body armor. This all changed with the newspaper (and TV?) campaign against "cop-killer" bullets, which, btw, were mostly, like KTW and, I think, THV, not sold to just anybody. Regardless, after the Commie rags started their campaign, I believe the percentage of head shots and other armor-avoiding moves by bad guys went up. So the issue was not really "cop-killer" bullets, but cop-killer newspapers and TV stations.

I remember the cop killer bullet **** and they did want to ban any bullet that would penetrate armor the fact is you can drive any bullet fast enough to penetrate body armour. The twits publicized the fact that cops wore armour and got a lot of good officers shot in the head all the folks that had those TC pistols in rifle caliburs got that nipped in the bud and common sense won out. You must stay vigilant as they will try any thing. Jeff

the term cop killer bullet seems to have evolved to fit AP FMJ and HP by the media ... what would that leave?
I wish it didnt lead to knee jerk legislation as it did. some aspects of the AP type might lend well to dangerous game projectiles as well as penetration improvements to be enjoyed by handgun hunters.

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it just needs more voltage

KTW was the company that produced the Teflon coated architectural bronze bullet in question. The media hype was the same for the Glock plastic pistol that you can walk on an airplane with (still trying to figure out exactly why because they have more steel parts than a lot of guns).

Ignorance is bliss and when it gets reported on TV a lot of people (some of them LE) believe it.

While the average LEO knows more about firearms than the average non-LEO, there are many LEOs who know much less about firearms and ballistics than most here. I imagine this was started by the type of LEO who are surprised to learn during their qualification that their bullets are rusted into their magazines.

The best free advertising they ever got!

rags

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RIP Shipmate

I say build better vest.dont ban bullets.all rifle ammo will go through any vest. we have offices carring fmj ammo mixed in with hps because they forgot to unload the mags when praticing. now the number of officers doing that has really really gone down this year.

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God save the SOUTH

I am one of those (ret) LEO's who knew nothing about guns until I got on the job. Then I had a working knowledge of them, but that is all.Just a few weeks ago I had to ask if it was safe to switch off the safety and carry a live round in my cs45. when I was a Cop, I was only familiar with revolvers and DAO semi auto's. I am learning quite a bit on this forum. Before a gun was just a tool I carried, we were taught just enough to keep out of trouble.

In the 80's the NYC PBA got involved in the anti "Cop killer" bullet issue. You cannot blame them. In the 60's 70's and 80's we had a lot of Cops killed. In 20 years I personally knew 8 that died line of duty. The PBA apparently got bad info, so when they heard there were bullets specifically designed to penetrate vests, you couldnt blame them from trying to stop them.

Banning bullets is like banning guns. When I was a Cop, until 2003, only Cop's, retired Cop's, and very few civilians had gun permits, every other gun owner was a bad guy., It seemed only criminals had guns.

NJ didnt even allow retired Cops to carry hollow points. This was rediculous, the reason the NYPD went to hollow point rounds was because they didnt want the round to go through the intended target and hit an innocent. Until HR218 was revised, an officer could carry in all 50, including retired Cops with LEOSA certification, but they couldnt carry hollow points in NJ.

In NYC, that liberal Bloomturd, who gets involved in other States gun laws and his "Yes man" Police Commissioner Kelly refuse to train retired Cops to qualify for HR218. They are one of the biggest obstructionists.

I carry as a last resort to defend my life and that of other's if necessary. I think back decades ago when a psycho started slashing passengers on the Staten Island ferry (NYC). You are out on the harbor for at least 40 minutes, with no help. A retired Officer shot the perp and saved people. This is why I carry but yet in NYC they obstruct every gun law they can.

Lock up a bad guy dealing drugs who has a gun, instead of the mandatory, by law five year jail sentance, the DA let's them plead out to a years probation.

The internet is great for info, you just have to have the intelligence to sort out the bs.

Believe and say what you think. It's a free country. Teflon bullets did penetrate(and still do) bullet proof vests. I don't know of anyone who was debating rifle ammunition. That's a given that most of those rounds will go through a vest, but I don't ever remember encountering a rifle wielding bad guy when I was in uniform. We have rifle wielding cops to deal with those guys if and when they show up. There is no reasonable nor pratical reason to have a handgun bullet that will penetrate a police officer's vest.

Actually it was the .22 magnum that burned through the kevlar vests like a hot knitting needle through a stick of butter. When I was at G&A back in the mid-70s Howard French did a mini-feature on bullet-proof vests; all went well until Ken Faust, one of the other editors, capped off a .22 mag round from a High Standard Sentinel.

Howard "overlooked" the .22 magnum when he reported on the test results, seeing no need to give the bad guys any insight into the one chink in a cop's armour.

How can anyone write about the ban on "copkiller" bullets and not mention Senator Howard Metzenbaum from Ohio?

I can't remember the other ones but that was one of several laws he had introduced, and got passed, to protect us poor law enforcement officers from things that never happened. They were all pure drivel and liberal media sensationalisms that achieved their ultimate purpose...he won his re-election.

[edit] History

In the 1960s, Paul Kopsch (an Ohio coroner), Daniel Turcos (a police sergeant), and Donald Ward (Kopsch's special investigator), began experimenting with special purpose handgun ammunition. Their objective was to develop a law enforcement round capable of improved penetration against hard targets, such as windshield glass and automobile doors. Conventional bullets, made primarily from lead, often become deformed and less effective after striking hard targets, especially when fired at handgun velocities. The inventors named their company "KTW," after their initials.

After some experimentation with steel rounds, the officers settled on a tungsten core. Unlike lead, which is relatively malleable, tungsten wore out barrels far more quickly than normal jacketed rounds, since the tungsten did not deform to fit the rifling. This is one reason the bullets were then coated with a layer of Teflon to reduce barrel wear. The inventors had also noted that canes were frequently tipped with the relatively soft Teflon to help them grip surfaces. They expected that coating the bullets with Teflon would reduce dangerous ricochets when fired through vehicle doors and windows.[1]

In 1982, NBC ran a special on the bullets (against the requests from many police organizations) and argued that the bullets were a threat to police. Gun control organizations in the U.S. labeled Teflon-coated bullets "cop killers" because of the supposedly increased penetration the bullets offered against ballistic vests, a staple of the American police uniform. Many, however erroneously focused on the Teflon coating as the source of the bullets' supposedly increased penetration. There is a common misconception, (often perpetuated by films and television) that coating normal bullets with Teflon will give them armor-piercing capabilities. In reality Teflon and similar coatings were used as a means to protect the gun barrel from the hardened bullet, and the coating itself can't add any armor-piercing abilities to otherwise normal ammunition.

Teflon-coated bullet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is almost the same statement when the .357 Mag was introduced back in the day. Also the 7.62X25 Tokarev is hard on vests and its surplus ammo and cheap to shoot in your CZ52 or TT.

I keep it simple, if your firing any caliber, any bullet at law enforcement you should be punished harshly.

I think it's a bit amusing that Ice-T (the rapper who preformed the song 'Cop Killer') now plays a cop on one the Law & Order shows .....

Teflon coating on a bullet has ZERO to do with a bullet's ability to penetrate a vest....yet some still think it does....amazing....even stated in this thread. Wow, no wonder we're having this discussion

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

but everyone knows that teflon... wait why do people even think teflon helps penetration

wow. just wow.

They tried real hard to make people believe there was a real pistol made of plastic that would avoid metal detectors and too many people believed it. Besides being a lie, and even if a plastic gun did exist, I always wanted to ask these geniuses what they thought the bullets were made of.

Yep, this would be great...IF the bullet were intelligent enough to know that it was about to penetrate a LEO's vest and stopped penetrating, but knew to achieve maximum penetration when plowing into large, dangerous game or when penetrating a vest worn by some gang-banger during a home invasion.

IOW...yeah, there may be times when a law-abiding citizen has a legitimate need for a handgun bullet that is capable of great penetration.

Tim

An anti-gun state government could have LEO's wear "bullet proof vests" made out of fruitrolls and then say, "We must ban all ammo that can penetrate the vests to save police officer's lives!" And when the NRA complains about it the media says "NRA Opposes Ban On Cop Killer Bullets".
Cops are pawns because it's all about an agenda, as usual.

It just demonstrates the power of propaganda and how many people get their information from 30 second news bites.

I'll write it down one more time real slow so some of you will get another chance at being properly informed . . . the purpose of the Teflon coating of certain ammunition was to help reduce wearing out the barrell of guns that fired it. The Teflon coating had zero impact on the bullets penetration of the target. Teflon coated bullets being identified as "cop killer" bullets is something the media made up and perpetuated.

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- Change it back -

[QUOTE=redlevel;135975351]...But my gosh, people!! Can't you think for yourself? Why do you swallow obvious propaganda from sources you know are biased at best, and liars at worst?....

Obviously people can't think for themselves that's why we have Rachel Maddow, Ed Schultz, Rush Limbaugh, Shawn Hannity, Glenn Beck and talk radio. I never could understand how people listen to and believe that drivel, it's all biased as you say! There's always a knee-jerk reaction that makes no sense as with the cop killer bullets.

There are no reasonable or practical reason for people to have many of the things we have. Motorcycles ... cars that go faster than 70 mph... jewelry... cigarettes ... big houses ... cable television ... I could go on. Here in the United States we can make choices. It is called liberty. Was it Franklin that said he who gives up essential liberty for security deserves neither?

I do not understand why concepts like second and third order effects and unintended consequences are not taught in schools. The unintended consequence of the law as it was originally written would have been to ban rifle ammunition. It makes no difference if anyone was talking about that or not. One could also argue, and I would, that banning rifle ammo was not unintended at all and that the authors of the bill wanted that. Fortunately, the NRA acted and stopped it.

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Proud anachronism

Don't recall who said it first but it's even more true with today's communication technology..."A lie can travel around the world while the truth is still puting it's pants on"...or something to that effect.
Also, most leo's are a poor source for information about firearms and even laws regarding firearms. I've found most, not all, know how to operate and maintain their duty weapons and have very little knowledge beyond the weapons they actually use. The scary part is how little some of them know about federal gun laws...legal transport, transfers of ownership, class III, etc. With the exception of a few firearms aficionados among leos that educate themselves, many leos know little more about firearms and firearms law, than the average citizen.

So...a criminal should be punished less if he fires that same bullet at you or me?

Well said.

No, but you get the general idea.

I am not a huge fan of people that misuse various objects. The drunk driver with their vehicle,stupid people with firearms,baseball bats, knives,etc. Uniformed police have the advantage of being able to charge people for a crime where as civilians do not. Bottom line if someone shoots at you or me little will be done about it but if its a cop you will be charged. That's it in a nut shell.

Bread Pudding

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Forum consigliere

Just for the sake of argument about LEO's and guns, I spend much more time behind the wheel of my patrol car than I do at the range. Although I may be considered a 'gun guy', I'm certainly no 'car guy'. Don't have a clue what a HEMI does or free flow air breather, but supposedly my patrol car has both. My car is a tool that I put fuel in when it needs it, and if it makes a noise it doesn't normally make I report it to the mechanic. I certainly don't mean to indicate that I can't drive a patrol car effectively and responsibly even in high stress situations. I've done so many times. But I'm not a car guy, I just drive 'em.

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1. Most proposed legislation regarding this imaginary "problem" makes NO distinction between handgun and rifle ammunition. But then the idea is to ban most AMMUNITION, period.
2. So what you're saying is that handgun hunting and metallic silhouette shooting are not "practical" or "reasonable"?

Let me posit that you don't know as much as you THINK you know about firearms OR ammunition.

I suggest you buy yourself a copy of "Cartridges of the World" instead of relying on VPC and AHSA propaganda.

The obvious difference is that a cop who knows nothing about cars is far less likely to bully somebody or violate their rights over some technical or legal issue related to automobiles than they are over a technical or legal issue related to firearms.

A guy from North Carolina was falsely arrested in Virginia for:

1. "having hollow points"
2. for carrying with a [recognized] out of state CCW credential
3. for "crossing state lines with a loaded firearm".

NONE of those things is a crime in Virginia and the victim was freed by a magistrate who explicitly labeled it a false arrest.

I'm sorry. It's an LEO's job to know what he's doing before he deprives somebody of their liberty, even for five minutes.

If through ignorance or laziness, you deprive me of my liberty on the basis of Brady Bunch propaganda or an IMAGINARY "law". I'm not going to fight you on the side of the road. But I will do EVERYTHING within my power to pull you through every administrative and legal knothole available to me.

I will NEVER be allowed to use ignorance as an excuse for committing a crime and don't expect to be. Somebody who wrongfully deprives me of my liberty will be held to the same standard.

Within two years, California and New Jersey will have laws allowing only "smart bullets" which will do just as you describe. Whether the technology exists by that time will not affect the law, but, regardless, an exception will be made for state and municipal police. In NJ, of course, the task of designing "smart bullets" may be slightly more difficult, since hollowpoints will be even more severely restricted. Hawaii will debate the need for such a law, since handguns will be completely outlawed by that time, anyway.

Well, buddy, you took a curve with this one I didn't expect to go down. By all means, I agree with you LEO's should be well versed in the laws they are enforcing. There is no excuse making charges on inappropriate application of laws or downright making them up. Well said on your part.

My point in the firearms and car parallel was that not all cops enjoy the mechanics of firearms, nor should they necessarily be expected to be any more that I should be expected to be a expert auto mechanic just because I drive a patrol car.

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This is already the case.

Any LEO should be well versed enough in basic firearms skills so that he can SAFELY handle a firearm, if for whatever reason, he takes it from a citizen. I've seen FAR too many stories of LEOs so poorly trained that they couldn't safely clear an M1911 without endangering the citizen and themselves. ANY cop should be able to SAFELY clear ANY reasonably common handgun. I don't expect a cop to know how to function check a 6.5mm Bergmann. If he can't clear a Government Model, he's a danger to himself and others if he insists on touching one.

This is why a lot of people won't inform an LEO they're carrying if there's no law requiring it. I certainly know I don't want to get shot with my own gun, having committed no crime.

Don't ban bullets, ban bad guys. Put em jail and keep em there. The same people that cry about guns, are crying about people being put in jail. There are to many people from this group, or that group, you can't have it both ways.

Question:

Does this mean that when I come home and the wife is pissed, if she throws the teflon coated frying pan at me, it will penetrate my vest?

What about her curling iron? Or the straightening iron? They are both teflon coated.....should I be concerned they might also compromise my vest?

Apparently I'll need to contact the local news media, followed by a call to my local legislative representative.

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

They can have my curling iron when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.

Hey, be careful now, you can go after my guns all you want but don't start messing with my morning eggs (I just hate it when my eggs stick to the pan, don't you?). Maybe we can just compromise and require all those who use teflon to be licensed.

Seriously though, just because something could be used to kill or could be used in a harmful way, doesn't mean it should be banned. That would mean everything from 2X4's, baseball bats, and cars would be banned. Instead hold a person accountable for their actions, not the tools they do the actions with.

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J.D. Roy

This may be a bit off topic, but then I don't know for sure what the topic is anymore.

Anyway, when I became the requalification officer for my small dept. I ran the guys through a drill where I took everyones duty weapon and laid it on a piece of cardboard on the ground. (We were required to supply our own sidearms and there was a wide variety at the time.) They each had one magazine in it with three rounds and one fully loaded magazine next to it. The drill was that on command the officer would pick up the firearm in front of him, fire the three rounds and then reload, fire the full magazine and then make the weapon safe. Then they would move to the next firearm and repeat the drill. Since they all carried something different I wanted to make sure they were familiar enough with each others sidearm that they could operate it enough to save their lives if the worst possible scenario happened.

The excersise was actually sort of comical, especially when they got to my model 65 with a speedloader sitting next to it. Most of those young pups had never fired a revolver and didn't know how to open the cylinder.

[QUOTE=B1A;135976394]Actually CBS, NBC and ABC all 3 of the aka mainstream media perpetrated this myth. This myth was started in the early 80's long before most of the above commentators gained a national audience.

Liberal and conservative venues are not reliable, you have to sift through the bs. The internet is good for that, but you have to sift through the bs there too.

Banning "Cop killer" bullets would not have been like the sky falling, except for the fact that liberals were using this to eliminate all ammo and guns. One less choice of ammo wouldn't have hurt anyone, but it would not have stopped there.

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

I am sorry you are married to a cop killer.

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

27145:

I would not be upset if the state legislature or Congress banned her.

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner