Like probably many of you, I went out and bought one of the first generation of laser sights for handguns ~ 15 years ago. IMHO a piece of bulky junk hung on the front of the trigger guard..next to impossible to zero and have it hold zero. Much has changed over the years, and today's laser sights have been highly integrated into the weapon design, with a low profile and grip activation in many cases.

I still remain concerned over their real advantage in combat.
Noted are the arguments that shining a laser beam on the
bad guy may be enough to persuade them to break off the assult, and the beam certainly should help in aiming the weapon when you are lying on the ground, etc.

Concerns remain in my mind over mal-functions at just the wrong time regarding the laser, batteries, activating switch, trying to see the point of impact in daylight, and basically relying on that beam of light rather than the ever present
and ever reliable iron or nite sights.

Point of all this is to request your feedback regarding how
widespread is the use of handgun laser sights in the law
enforcement community. Are they being fitted to duty guns by the local, state, or federal agency, allowed to be fitted at officer expense, or banned from use for whatever reason ?

Appreciate your thoughts.

Southampton

I have laser grips on my BUG because they allow for accurate shooting without having to line up the sights. As long as I can see and pull the trigger I can hit the target.

I don't know of anyone in this area using them on a duty weapon.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

while they facilitate shooting from the hip .. at the ranges such shooting would occur, I dont see much advantage. if you dont have time to bring it to eye level, you dont have time to look for a dot.
Any other time, it, as well as tac lights, are a liability, they tell your opponent where to aim

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it just needs more voltage

I have zero experiance. Yet I think if I saw one of those red dots on my chest it would humble me real quick!

Most shootings are under 10 feet. Point and shoot, done. I would never, ever own one.

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

For their intended use they are great. They also have some training applications.

In a low light situation they can make all the difference in the world. Seeing the dot is not something you have to consiously make an effort to do as in the same with a front sight. It is instantaneous. Who cares if the target sees the dot or not??? If you've gone that far chances are you're committed to the shot and intend to do so. Great if the intended target changes his/her mind, but that is not the purpose of the lazer sight. It is to give you added advantage in terms of quickly aquiring the target in less than optimum light conditions. Conditions in which the bad guys prefer to operate. Those fractions of a second can make a big difference if you are already behind the eight-ball.

In a training situation the lazer can speed up the development of muscle memory when trying to learn instinctive shooting from the hip. It saves rounds down the tube because it allows you to draw and instantly see the error of the muzzle (your hold, which must be developed by repetition of dry firing in front of a mirror and by actual shooting) and make a correction.

I do not know how widespread the use of lasers is in that community. I do know that a lot of folks that carry concealed buy and use them. I have several and believe they are useful as stated. I have never had one of mine to fail, however I do keep fresh batteries and change them out fairly regularly. If you're going to buy and depend on a laser, by all means purchase the very best you can afford and don't try to save on batteries.

I'm not talking about time, I'm talking about ability. If even if I am compromised to the degree that I cannot raise my gun to aim, the laser allows for accurate shots from any position.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

I have Crimson Trace on my 640-1 and have shot it at distances of 1 to 15 yards, in bright sunlight and twilight. While it isn't a "tech marvel" that will replace iron sights, it does have advantages. I find that very close (say several feet) I don't need to rely on it, I just point and shoot, real fast. At 15 yards I probably will be looking for cover rather than trying to acquire the target. I've found in the ranges of over 3 yards to 10, and in dim light, the CT shines (pun intended). I've found that what is necessary is focus while firing. It can be done very fast, with practice. I've also found shooting multiple targets is not a problem. And if the dot doesn't come on, back to the sights or point shooting. It really works best for these old eyes in dim light and with a dark target. In these conditions I probably won't even see the sights, let alone be able to aim properly. In summary, they work for me in certain situations as I'm sure they will for many others. For some, particularly younger shooters with good eyes and reflexes, they may not be as much of an asset. The bottom line: Whatever works for you, use it.

I have quite a few guns equipped with Crimson Trace and recommend them all the time. Not having time to turn them on becomes a non issue, they come on as soon as you get a proper grip.

I think even in bright daylight they work for my eyes. I find it hard to see the front site and the rear is of course worse. I can see everything well from 15 feet to infinity. When I compete I use glasses that focus right on the front sight but then the target is tough. When I go about daily life I use the variable progressive lenses, but when shooting it takes a long time to find the sights.

With the Crimson Trace I can focus on the target look down the barrel, the sights are there but pretty fuzzy but the dot is right where the round is going. I can see the dot on the brightest days to 15 or 20 yards. If I got in trouble beyond that range I guess I have a bit more time to find the sweet spot in my glasses and will use the iron sights.

I recommend them to all my students and friends. My wife and daughter have them on their guns too.

Better to have them and not need them, than to need them and not have them.






I wish they made a more compact grip for the N frame, I had to cut down the Hog Hunter on my 629 for carry. I would buy 3 more if they would.

I think you should practice with them in daylight doing lots of target transitions and weak hand, strong hand shooting. I like to keep fiber optics on my 629 also, if it is too bright out to see the dot, the fibers ought to be jumping right out at ya.
For my in the house gun I keep an M&P with the light & laser combo for my wife and myself. If you keep your finger off the trigger a light laser handgun should give a real advantage to a practiced homeowner. I understand the point of giving away your position with a light & a place for the bad guy to aim and all that but I think seeing and indentifying the person moving around your kitchen in the middle of the night is pretty important in my house.



I have this same setup on a M&P 45 with an extended magazine (14+1) but no pix yet.

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Shoot fast & live long
Warren

I have one for my wife's model 60 that sits in her nightstand. She is not into shooting like i am so the CT makes it to where she can use the gun with little training. It is real simple, point the laser where you want the bullets to go and you get 5 try's. It is perfect for the non shooter that wants a gun for self protection. I would buy one for my 657 that sits in the nightstand but I have just never got around to it.

i have crimson trace on two of my guns and as said as soon as you grab the grip they are on. the main use for me would be target shooting and i do not have one on my carry gun which is a ( dirty word ) glock 27. i constantly practice point shooting and can hit an eight in target about 15 feet away 3 times putting one just about dead center, one at three oclock and the third at 11 oclock in about 2 seconds. my focus is on my front sight and my target becomes a blur. i find with the laser just for a split second i am concentrating and focusing on the laser and to me that maybe to much time.

Laser sights have their advantages.

The Laser sight on a revolver/pistol is a great asset for dry firing and working on trigger control.

You'll never have problems with your battery if you change them twice a year. I change my when I change my smoke detector battery and my clocks.

If for some reason, you don't change your battery and they fail, you still have your sights.

You don't have to use them. In bright lights you still have your sights.

You may not need them is close shooting, but for pin point shooting in low light they come in handy.

Using the laser allows more of your body to remain behind cover. In fact, practice using mirrors. When I was in LE I used mechanic's inspection mirrors for peeking around corners.

I've found out, you can remain behind cover, point the gun at the target, use the mirror to see the Laser Dot on the target.

Every benifit you have without the laser you still have with the laser,

Again, you don't have to use it. But its there if you need it.

Those who condem the LS seem to think having one prevents you from using the sights, or point shooting.

A LS not being used is no different then a revolver/pistol w/out the LS.

While I can't address the LE aspect of your question, I do have some "Real World" experience with Laser Sights when dealing with damaging critters here on our property. We had to have our roof fixed twice in three years due to Raccoon damage so if they are not dealt with when they get "too close", things can get expensive.

We live on an old farm where there are a number of buildings, lots of trees, vehicles, as well as quite a bit of heavy equipment parked around some of the barns. This is the night time enviroment I'm working in.

We also have a pistol range out in the backyard where I have been able to practice night time shooting methods. When I became proficient enough to consistently hit my targets while on the move I figured it was time to rely on my Revolver for critter duty. I was actually quite confident that I would be able to use a Revolver effectively for this purpose, that was until I tried it.

While I was extremely effective on the range using a flashlight all that training pretty much went out the window in the dynamic enviroment I found myself in. Not only was I generally on the move, my target was as well. If you factor in the enviroment I mentioned earlier, buildings, trees, etc. you should get some idea of how busy things can get in a hurry. This "busy" situation happens at a time when you have no time and I can only imagine the ramifications of high stress added on if this were a true self defense situation.

Using the night time training mentioned above I was only able to take a shot maybe 20% of the time, even at very close ranges, and was only able to hit maybe 5% of those taken. A pretty dismal, not to mention frustrating, performance.

After my "re-education", or should I say comeuppance, I started using a set of Crimson Trace Grips on my yard gun and since that time (about 2 years now) when using a Revolver I can usually get a good, accurate shot off about 75% of the time.

Prior to switching to the CT Grips I found that while I could usually spot my target at night I didn't have enough time to also acquire the sights. By the time I did it was too late. Keep in mind that my primary method of training, when it comes to self defense, is "Point Shooting" so it's not as if I was waiting until I found that "perfect" sight picture before firing off a shot. Something (perfect sight picture) much easier to do in the daylight than at night.

Because my effectiveness spiked so dramatically with the CT Grips on a Revolver I added a Streamlight TLR2s to my 20 ga. Remington 870 Tactical Shotgun and experienced an even greater increase in effectiveness.

The only downside to my experience is that when things are happening fast & furious (running through buildings, arounds cars & trees) and you take the shot it's almost as if it isn't even you doing the fireing since you may not even have the gun in a "proper" fireing position but the dot's already on target so you go for it. My experience is that it's almost as if I'm just there watching what's happening, that's why I make a concerted effort to not use them for most of my training. I don't want to solely rely on them just in case they aren't there, which happened to me once last year.

Last year my wife saw a 'coon go into one of the barns just before dark so I went around back with my 870 and she waited until I gave her the high sign before she went in. Shortly after she did the 'coon came running out and when I pulled up I seen that I hadn't turned on the TLR and in that split second I said to myself "old school" and made the shot. Now I have a switch pad on the forestock of my 870 for my TLR, so, even if I forget, the option is still there simply by squeezing the switch.

As I alluded to above, I don't use the CT's when out on the range live fireing, I do, however, use them during dry fire practice.

I hope my experience helps someone decide if a Laser Sight is something they might want to add to their "package."

Your mileage may vary.........

I have the mini Laser Max lasers on my M&P 45 & M&P 40 "House" guns.Both are also equipped with night sights.I feel like some of others,it's better to have them and not need them than the other way around.

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JR

When I was in the Army, the units I trained with and were assigned to stopped using tracer rounds for their machine guns. True, it shows you were your bullets are striking at night, but it also gave away your position with a straight red line back to it.

That's rather silly since the muzzle flash for a MG looks like a trip flair. You don't need to look down the at the tracers to see where they are coming from.

I ran into a road rage type incident with a big old guy driving a 18 wheeler up in Indiana a few years ago. He ran me off the highway and into the median. I managed to get back on the road without rolling over and a few miles later I punched it and passed the guy figuring I could just get far enough ahead of him and he wouldn't be a problem. I guessed wrong. I got stuck behind traffic and this fool got on my bumper and started blowing his air horn. I painted his passenger side windshield with a Crimson Trace and he backed off and left me alone. In other words, the best use of a laser is the intimidation factor.

There are a couple of ways to deal with this issue when using Crimson Trace Grips that have the button activated laser. We had two CT Grips prior to my adding them to my yard gun so I've been using them for about 4 years now and from the very beginning I've always drawn or held the gun by using less pressure with my middle finger (the one that activates the button) on the front of the grip. My middle finger still grips the gun, just not tight enough to depress the button until I'm ready to activate the laser.

Even though I have fairly large hands my method works well and still gives me a secure hold on a J-Frame with the smallest style CT Grips.

Many nights I'll put some snap caps in and walk around the property practicing my "dark" Point Shooting, i.e. no flashlight. Sometimes I'll quickly draw or raise the gun and point at a small post, tree, etc. and "snap" off a couple of shots then immediately activate the laser to see if I was on. Other times I'll activate the laser when my arm is about a foot from being fully raised then "snap" off my rounds. When "engaging" multiple targets I always release the button between targets in an effort to drill that procedure into my subconcious mind, which will probably be a player in a real bad guy situation.

My wife's method is the same as mine only she also holds her trigger finger over the Laser outlet on the grip panel until she's ready to fire.

In Charlie's above post he explained how a laser can work as an "intimidator", it can also be used as an "encourager."

About a year ago we had some animal damage to the wiring on the boom of one of the bucket trucks parked out by one of the barns. The day the wiring was fixed I moved one of my wireless passive infra-red sensors so it would cover the trucks starting that night. These sensors transmit to receivers in our living room that are programmed much like an answering machine only you get 6 seconds to record what you want.

About 2 in the a.m. that first night I heard my voice on the receiver say "Bucket Trucks." Time to gear up.

I slipped out there checking the area with my night vision monocular and sure enough there was a 'coon up on the same truck that had been repaired. After sizing up the situation I knew full well that if the 'coon left the truck from a number of different angles that I'd never get a shot due to other equipment out there so I came up with "a plan of action."

Knowing that our dog & cat reacts to the laser when I do a function check on the wall or ceiling I figured what the heck, let's give this a try. I angled my body to shield the light coming out of the laser itself so the 'coon wouldn't see the source and played the laser out on the ground where I wanted the 'coon to go and gave it a couple seconds each time until the 'coon looked in that direction. I waited a few seconds to build up it's curiousity then gave it another light show for a second or so.

You know what they say about curiousity & cats, well the same can be said about at least one Raccoon. No more damage after that so I did get the offender......

I thought the tracers we were using now were delayed ignition and didn't ignite for 100 yds or so to make them hard to trace back to the source. Did they have trouble getting that feature in the little 5.56 bullet?

Morally I agree with what you did. As a matter of fact in my mind I could justify sending a round through his cab. I will have to say I would never do what you did in this day and age. He could have gotten on his cell phone, called the police saying you menaced him. If they pulled you over and you had a gun with that laser sight, you would be going to jail.

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

Ogilvy found a good use for one, critters. As far as a bad guy, nah.

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

They have their place & can be very useful. But they are not a cure all or a replacement for frequent practice.

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20 years Mil, 18 yrs Sac P.D.

Just returned from the range. Fired off 3 of boxes of .38's in the 640 (with CT). Turned the CT off for the last 50 rounds and found my shooting had improved (just not as precise). It's obvious that if you have them you should practice using the CT, but you should also practice with it turned off.

I've never used one, except on a taser, and they work on them. I did respond to a shooting several years ago where a laser was used very accurately. It was grip mounted on a short barreled 38 and the shootee was center punched by the shooter. Definitely an anecdotal account but.....

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Tom
"Panem et Circenses"

I've never used one, but it seems to me that it would work very well in a stressful situation.

As a species, rifles and handguns are the only method of launching a projectile in which we DON'T focus intently on the target.

Look at what human beings have always done--throw a rock, look at the target. Throw a spear, look at the target. Atalatl, look at the target. Shoot a bow (traditional) look at the target.

Try to hit a nail with a hammer while looking at the hammer.

Toss in a lot of stress as in a self defense scenario, i.e. somebody shooting at you, and I'd wager there's way less than one shooter in ten--if that many--whose focus is going to be on the front sight and not the threat. As a species we've survived because we could focus on and deal with a threat.

We'd like to think we could do it, but in those high stress situations human nature is going to take over. Putting an aiming point or reference on the target works with the way people deal with stress and danger.

Once upon a time firearms had no sights. You simply pointed them and fired. Then someone started putting a "fore" sight on the front of the barrel. Apparently it helped get rounds on target. Go figure. Now... fast forward through the plethora of iron sights that were developed... up through the first primitive scopes that were mounted on rifles and then machine guns and then... even handguns. If some thought the arrangements odd/awkward, the results on target and in the match scores spoke for themselves. Now... what was once a curiosity brings added utility and effectiveness to firearms. Go figure. In a few years we'll look at discussions about using/not using lasers/red dots, etc. and see them the same way as discussions that once focused on if or if not one should mount a low-powered scope on a hunting rifle.

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<><

An interesting thread to resurrect. Cooter's points are well founded, point shooting is target focused and lasers and red dot sights allow accurate target focused shooting well beyond the usual few yards we that we normally use point shooting. The growing trend of mini red dot sights on self defense handguns is testimony to how well target focused shooting works - superimpose the dot on the target and fire. You're shooting with both eyes open, no more trying to work with three different focal planes (rear sight, front sight, target), plus you have the huge defensive advantage of keeping your target in focus all the time.

Also, as we age and our vision deteriorates, corrective lenses can make it even more difficult to get a proper sight picture with conventional iron sights. I wear progressive bifocals now and the only way for me to get good focus on the front sight is to tip my head back so that I'm using the reading portion of the lens and my distance shooting has suffered because of these changes. With a red dot I am able to focus on the target and the dot is as clear and sharp as the target is, exactly the same advantage that the red dot sight on my patrol rifle gives me.

I recently purchased a new FNP-45 Tactical pistol and a Trijicon RMR mini red dot sight to replace my 1911 as my duty weapon for the reasons mentioned above among other advantages. The RMR cowitnesses with the iron sights on the pistol, just like the set up on my rifle. There has been a bit of adjustment to get used to focusing on the target beyond normal point shooting range, old habits die hard, but thanks to the cowitness when I press the gun out and line up the sights the dot appears on the target. There is no hunting around for it.

Iron sights will never go away but the same as night sights on handguns and red dot and holographic sights on rifles have become the norm, I think you'll find that these smaller red dot sights become more and more common of defensive handguns for all of the advantages they offer.

BTW Cooter, the hammer and nail analogy is terrific. I hope you don't mind me using that one!

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

I put a laser on the wife's SIG 2022 this Christmas. She shoots it pretty darn well but I still make her practice with the iron sights.

I think short barreled compacts are where these things really shine, pardon the expression.

I have bad eyes & was able to dump a magazine fairly quickly into a small area at 10 yards. Not having to pick up the front sight in dim light really makes a difference.

Had a (free) CT on the wife's M37 air weight for a while. The switch went on and stayed on when you gripped the gun, and the grip contours made recoil very painful. Plus the net effect was to slow shooting down. We promptly sold it off.

Previously I did quite a bit of night fire with a good flashlight with good results.

Not agin everything new as I run a 1.5x ACOG on the AR, a red dot on the 15-22, and like the idea of a mini-red dot on pistols some time down the road.

My concern has always been that the beam of light is straight while the bullet's flight is curved. Seems the effective range would be limited to a certain spread of distances. Any ACTUAL experiences at varied distances?

For my 642 and 3913 at least, if you zero the laser @ about 30 feet, it'll be on within 3 inches or so out to about 25 yards. More than good enough. If you zero it farther out, it'll be even closer for longer. Up close, your round will hit above and to the left of the laser...out at 25 feet, the round and dot will hit in the same exact spot...and then farther out, your round will start to hit below and to the right of the dot's position.


I find it far easier to quickly shoot 12oz soda cans at varying ranges out to 25 yards w/ my 642 in rapid succession in low light with the CT grips than I do trying to shoot them with iron sights in broad daylight.

It was really an eye opening experience when I brought home a target from my first day at the range at dusk w/ the laser sights and saw groups that were significantly better than I can usually do with iron sights.

It's not the same thing when you get into long barreled guns with decent distance between sights, but with J frames and other short barreled guns the benefit is extreme. Shooting in awkward positions becomes easy too; you don't actually need to be able to line up the sights with your eye at all to shoot accurately. I was a skeptic until I got to try them out, but now I am a die hard fan of lasers on defensive guns.

Consider that most defensive shooting happens in the dark or in low light situations, and combine that with the knowledge that you will focus ON THE THREAT generally when you are threatened; the laser is a logical tool to have. Many people will spend 120$ on a set of glowing night sights for their gun but balk at spending 150$ for a laser grip. If i need to shoot defensively, the last thing I want to be doing is try to make out the softly glowing circles from my night sights against a possible complex/cluttered visual field - possibly with lots of moving bright lights throughout.

Southampton,

I did put a laser on my Glock 21C, which at the time was my duty sidearm.

With it being a compensated barrel I had issues that made it less effective than I desired.

My thought process for my primary goal was intimidation. If I could gain some compliance by "lighting them up", I felt might be able to change the behavior without deadly force.

Never got to put it into practice. I have heard of officers that were able to get the attention of the "bad guy" and it worked to achieve the goal.

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I am a sheep dog!
1601 (ret)

At normal SD situations you wont know the difference, even out of a snubby.

Even at 25 yards, you aim center mass, its gonna hit center mass whether you use the laser or iron sights. Might be a difference of a couple inches (at the longer range) but does that really matter when you have the target the size, from the neck to the belly button.

We're not talking about precission shooting like ISU or Rifle Shooting where an inch or two would take you out of the money.

I keep hearing that you're supposed to put the dot on the center of the bad guy's chest. He'll see the dot and instantly surrender..........Right?

I would put the dot on the bridge of his NOSE. He can't possibly miss it there, and nobody wants to get shot in the face!

I thought lasers were just gimmicks........until my up-close vision got so bad I couldn't see the sights anymore. And in the dark, you'd be lucky to see them with good vision. Plus, you can stay behind cover with just your shooting hand exposed, put the dot where it needs to go, and squeeze off a shot. Or if I've been knocked to the ground, I can still index the gun without contorting to line up the sights. I think they can be very useful.......in certain situations.

One of my gun show buddies was near blind. He had a Glock27 with a Lasermax guide rod laser. After he died his table pard was selling the gun. Looks just like a reg g27, nothing hanging down. I offered him a 4" mod 19-4 in trade and he accepted. I'm satisfied and enjoy the gee whiz factor but I doubt I'd remember to use laser in a shtf situation. It's a pulsating beam and the dogs loved to chase it til they realized their efforts were futile.

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God spelled backwards is dog.

I can see where having a laser on your pistol would come in quite handy when calling in an air strike - One less thing to tote around.

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In dog years I'm dead.

Laser Sights = Old Men's Eyes

Many people do not shoot with the correct method with laser sights.
You should bring the firearm up to 6" below eye level,
this maintains your peripheral vision.

Activate the Laser
If laser does not activate, continue up to your eye level and use the iron sights.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO