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  #1  
Old 09-04-2011, 06:56 PM
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Default S&W "Dummy" guns for salesman

There is a M19 for sale on GB labeled as a "Dummy for salesman". It even has DUMMY stamped on the butt where the serial number is usually stamped.

Any truth to this gun?

Last edited by ARMinSC; 09-05-2011 at 07:17 PM.
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  #2  
Old 09-04-2011, 06:58 PM
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Not likely. Salesman samples have always been fully functional firearms.
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  #3  
Old 09-04-2011, 07:11 PM
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I think that the companies may have supplied "dummy" guns for holster makers.
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Old 09-04-2011, 08:59 PM
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Those were used before "blue" guns came along for training and holsters.
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Old 09-04-2011, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
Not likely. Salesman samples have always been fully functional firearms.
Not Correct - I have bought numerous "Dummy guns" from an ex - S&W salesman that were completely welded up and 100% non-functional.

Here is one that I cut in half so I'd have a grip jig and it is stamped "Dummy". They made alot of these from mis-matched, defective parts.
FYI - It also had serial number removed from butt by the Factory.

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  #6  
Old 09-05-2011, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VM View Post
Not Correct - I have bought numerous "Dummy guns" from an ex - S&W salesman that were completely welded up and 100% non-functional.

Here is one that I cut in half so I'd have a grip jig and it is stamped "Dummy". They made alot of these from mis-matched, defective parts.
FYI - It also had serial number removed from butt by the Factory.

Why? It makes no sense. I can see having a cut-away, to show me - the customer - how the internals work. But a totally non-functioning gun?

Now, I've got a Rossi 92 carbine, that was sold as a "salesman's sample". It not only works, but it's slick as hell. Rossi did an action job on it before it went out, so the salesman could show it to people and say, "Look how good our rifles are".

That makes sense. Taking a regular 19 and running it through the performance center, to make it as good as it could be, and then presenting it as a "standard, off the line, Model 19" - that would make sense.

A non-functioning sample, with weld-bead all over it, would not make me want to shell out with my hard-earned money.
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Last edited by Alpo; 09-05-2011 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:23 AM
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back in 1991 i had 2 "dummy" guns fro, S&W a 4506 & 1006 paid 65.00 each for them.....they were used for training , both had the firing pin welded and a holes drilled in the barrell....then in the 90's my brother stole sold them.........i wish i still hade them
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpo View Post
Why? It makes no sense. I can see having a cut-away, to show me - the customer - how the internals work. But a totally non-functioning gun?

******************

A non-functioning sample, with weld-bead all over it, would not make me want to shell out with my hard-earned money.
S&W made many of these for Holster and Box manufacturers............they weren't used for selling a gun to the consumer.
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  #9  
Old 09-05-2011, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VM View Post
Not Correct - I have bought numerous "Dummy guns" from an ex - S&W salesman that were completely welded up and 100% non-functional.

Here is one that I cut in half so I'd have a grip jig and it is stamped "Dummy". They made alot of these from mis-matched, defective parts.
FYI - It also had serial number removed from butt by the Factory.

All Salesmans gun were working guns. They would be "On loan" in S&W records. Once they were done with them, they would go back to the plant.
If the saleman wanted, he could buy them. I don't know the salesman that told you that story, but that's what it is, a story.
Smith & Wesson would never cut up a gun then give it back for someone to sell. If the serial number is removed, it must be scrapped and proof of its disposal provided to the BATF.
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Old 09-05-2011, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VM View Post
S&W made many of these for Holster and Box manufacturers............they weren't used for selling a gun to the consumer.
I concur. When I left G&A Magazine I was hired by a company that made french fitted pistol cases and we had probably half a dozen S&W "dummy" guns that were used for fitting purposes. It was my understanding then that these had been purchased from S&W. These were also used by the company as patterns to form molds to cast aluminum "replicas" which were sold to a number of holster makers.
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  #11  
Old 09-05-2011, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Club Gun Fan View Post
All Salesmans gun were working guns. They would be "On loan" in S&W records. Once they were done with them, they would go back to the plant.
If the saleman wanted, he could buy them. I don't know the salesman that told you that story, but that's what it is, a story.
Smith & Wesson would never cut up a gun then give it back for someone to sell. If the serial number is removed, it must be scrapped and proof of its disposal provided to the BATF.
S&W didn't cut up this gun - I did, as I previously posted.
I'm not going to argue with you about the numerous "Dummys" I bought from this ex-employee.
If you read ALL of the posts in this thread, it will make more sense to you.
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  #12  
Old 09-06-2011, 01:40 AM
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Default Dummy Guns

There were five instances that I can remember when the factory would make dummy guns:

1. For holster manufacturers - Bianchi, early Safariland etc.
2. For box manufacturers - all
3. For grip makers
4. For Training weapons used at the Academy.
5. For a full size mold to copy so that pewter replica could be made.

BATF allowed dummy guns to be made and there were specific guidelines mandated by them. If I remember correctly, this is what had to be done:

A. The barrels had to be welded shut at the muzzle end.
B. The barrels were welded to the frame or the slide depending on revolver vs. pistol.
C. Cylinder was welded to the frame eliminating any rotation and any space around cylinder making frame and cylinder one solid piece.
D. Hammer was welded to the frame and side plate - again - no movement
E. Trigger was welded to the frame and side plate - no movement.
F. Serial number was removed.

By doing this to BATF's specifications, the revolver / pistol was a "non gun" and for all purposes was "destroyed". They now could be shipped through the mail to custom box makers and holster makers. Since it was no longer a working, registered gun, holster makers and box makers did not have to utilize an FFL.

Many of these guns were made from out of spec parts as well as mismatched - i.e. stainless and blued parts OR .38 / .357 barrel on an N frame with a .45 long colt cylinder. They were not refinished and would often rust where all the welding was done.

Individual police departments would do the same "dummy gun" treatment to K and J frames to use as training guns.

As Andy Griffith pointed out, these were done long before the blue and red training guns. One of the problems with the plastic training guns is that they do not simulate real gun weight. Conversely, "dummy guns" per BATF's standards were very heavy (far more than loaded guns) and hard to train with. I believe training stopped using them in the 90's and were often seen on people’s desks as paper weights.

Custom grip makers love getting these guns to use as guides for the different grips. If the grip serial number on the bottom was destroyed by using a band sander, the bottom dimensions of the butt was destroyed. If, however, they were machined out with an end mill or XXX out with a punch, the dimensions would be almost perfect. I can understand why VM cut his sample to make a jig - cylinder gets in the way on a vise.

As far as a sales tool......no. Many sales guys had them as paperweights. All guns used in the process of sales were live and put on the individuals sales account "on loan" out of the vault. The list was frequently reviewed and weapons inventoried.

I do not believe that the factory ever sold a "dummy gun". Hundreds or more were sent out all over the country and I am sure by now some have made it into the secondary market as novelty items. This does not include all of the guns that were done by individual police departments.

Hope this clears up any confusion.


THANKS

WESMAN
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  #13  
Old 09-06-2011, 12:07 PM
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The gun in question is not welded in the pics shown. It looks a little funny to me for some reason I can't figure out, but is basically a 2.5" M19. The only thing is, it is stamped "DUMMY" on the butt instead of a serial number. I think it's way over priced, but it is interesting to me.
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:53 PM
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A "Buy It Now" for only $1995.00?!? I've seen a lot of overpriced guns in my day, but this one takes the cake.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:12 PM
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I do not believe the S&W Dummy Salesmans Revolver currently on GB is anything that the factory would have done. Epoxy....??? Does not meet the ATF guidelines that the factory followed. Possibly a Police department training gun made out of the rack guns when switching over to auto pistols. The welds as seen on VM's gun is more indicative of any factory dummy guns that I have seen.

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  #16  
Old 07-04-2018, 02:37 PM
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As a former "Smith" salesman and now a holster maker, I had to buy my sample/demo guns ( functional) and also buy dummy guns for $20.00 each.
Still have a 15, 19, 39, and 59 if anyone's interested in making an offer.
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Old 07-04-2018, 02:44 PM
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Default Me Thinks Not

Holster manufacturers use solid gun castings obtainable from independent companies. During my four years with DeSantis, I never once saw a deactivated gun used for molding or fitting.

Real guns can be used for training once defanged, but often, these are seized guns that have been put to use rather than destroyed.
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4506, bianchi, carbine, colt, m19, model 19, performance center, rossi, s&w, safariland

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