How much chilling of the spine do we need on a Monday morning?

H&K awarded contract to build new assault rifles for USMC

Are the decision-makers all suffering from Alzheimers or something?
What next, get the Japanese to build our next generation fighter planes?

Wonder who got what kind of kickback on that one? And yeah, Honda does build jet aircraft.

CW

If HK customer service treats the USMC the same way they do it's citizen customers- the Marines will soon be using the guns as clubs for lack of parts and lack of empathy from their parts department.

No matter how good a gun is, unless there is support...the gun is a failure.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

Sounds like Beretta 2.0.

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<><

It's not as if Marines have never been shafted before. It wasn't that long ago that we ran successful campaigns with castoff Army equipment, captured weapons/supplies and foraged to supplement our diet. I hope the new weapons work out, but if they don't, we will adapt, adjust and overcome, as we always have. I have several HK products and they have given good service, are reliable and accurate.
Semper Fi!

Not to sound too calloused, but who is supposed to compete here stateside besides ruger? The domestic manufacturers all want entirely too much for what is estentially the same designs from the last 40-50 years repainted. It's a sad fact of american business.

Ain't gonna be long before the only thing left that we can do on our own is print money

Assuming US$ is going to be printed on paper in the future, we would have run out of wood before long because we are now shipping raw wood overseas to countries who are building furniture. Then, they turn around and sell these furniture back to us. That sure sounds like we are a colony of some imperialists.

Last count, we have, at least, 25 AR-15 manufacturers in the US.
Incidentally, that HK416 and the HK556A1 (descended from HK416) are AR's that cost around US$2,000 each. They are, certainly, not cheaper than any US ones.

Historically, the safety and ease of use of the end user have never mattered much to the Military.

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Front sight and squeeze

The only guys coming out with new assault rifles are Barrett, FN, H&K, and Remington. I don't think the adoption of the H&K is due to greasing palms, I believe it's a lack of faith in the soldiers who are going to be using the weapon. It's such a copout it's ridiculous. Instead of retraining they'd rather continue with the M-16 type of system. How hard is it to figure out an assault rifle? Who are they kidding? If an 8 year old can figure out how to rack an AK, I figure a grown man with an IQ above 60 can figure out where the charging handle, safety and trigger is for any shoulder-mounted, magazine-fed weapon out there. And disassembly and cleaning is more difficult on many of the newer semi-auto pistols than most assault rifles I've handled. That's why I consider the Glock the AK of the pistol world. Simple to strip, simple to operate, and stupid reliable.

The new weapon is to replace the M249 not the M-16

If I am reading it right, it comes out to $5900 per rifle. They better be good for that price.

BTW, US paper money is printed on cotton fiber pulp, not wood.

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Geoff. Since 1960.

The M249 Squad Automatic Weapon and the M240 Light Machine Gun are both manufactured by Fabrique Nationale, not exactly an American comany, though both are built in the USA. I know the evaluation trials are extensive, and the Corps will only select the best for them. That's not to say some congressman couldn't influence outcomes (a la Colt in the 1960's). I am familiar with the HK416, and it works. I understand the M27 is less than half the weight of the M249. I can understand the desire to change. I would prefer an American company to have won, but I don't know if any even submitted.

spinechilling it is.

H&K customer service is geared towards LE and military sales. They've been pushing the 416 series extensively. By most accounts they work.

Generally these sorts of contracts require the maker to set up a factory in the United States, hence the large FNH operation here in SC. For various reasons related to U.S. and German law, that would actually make it much more feasible for H&K to sell weapons on the commercial market in the United States.

Besides, the Germans make good guns.

Oh, and the Blackhawk gear widely sold at Exchanges and used across the services? That's mostly made in Vietnam. I mean if you wanted to complain about something...

The H&K has a good track record in the Sand Box.

It is a Piston gun.

Also they are trying to get away from a belt fed 223 gun, for "walking/running around troops.

Plus the M249's are worn out...

A newly established HK manufacturing facility is located in Newington, New Hampshire. I'm jus sayin'

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP

I understand where you are coming from but comparing:

1. Vietnam War vs World Wars I and II (who was the main aggressor in these two wars?)
2. low tech Blackhawk holsters/accessories vs a high end squad automatic weapon (SAW)

seemed worlds apart.

I'd say all they need to do in a war is to stop supplying parts and there goes your SAW for the entire Marines Corp.

It dont matter what the troops get, they are meant to be "expended". What is important is the graft and payola that will keep generations of the decision makers families from working.

It dont matter what the troops get, they are meant to be "expended" like bullets. What is important is the graft and payola that will keep generations of the decision makers families from working.

So a German gun built in the US is replacing a Belgian gun built in the US?

Not so spinechilling.

I trust the Marines to do a decent job picking something for themselves.

I've had an HK MP5 issued to me for 20 years - actually a succession of them since they stayed in the office when I transferred. It might as well have been the same gun - they were all boringly reliable. None ever jammed. Not once. We can barely get six guys with M4 clones through a course of fire without some kind of malfunction, but my little kraut subgun just keeps chugging along.



If this new gun is anywhere near as good the USMC will be well served.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

This new thing is nothing more than the latest derivative of the M16. What ever happened to my beloved M60?

They wore out, like anything mechanical....

Your AG got tired of carrying the spare barrels and ammo?

HK? didnt they make that 416 that finally fixed the gas system on the long suffering M16 design?

if so I'm all for it, too many people have died from that rifles troublesome gas system not working like it should when they needed it. Although that still doesnt fix the stopping power and lack of range that .223 cartridge has, but that's why they came out with that .25 grendal cartridge a few years ago.

Unfortunately the days of things made in the U.S.A. and the pride that went with buying those things on a large scale like military contracts are (to quote a teenage girl) "is so over!"

5.56mm no stopping power?

Take a look at this ...
wounding factor of the 5.56mm

I doubt HK is the one that came up with the piston design. Every major AR manufacturer out there in the US has a piston-driven design (Colt, LWRCI, Ruger, LMT, Bushmaster etc.)
The first piston-driven AR was designed and produced back in 1963 by ArmaLite (of California)
AR-18

The Direct Impingement (DI) design is simple and it works ... from the mouth of a SpecOps soldier who was determined to find out what this myth is all about ...
Is DI really unreliable?

Who cares who makes them provided the guns do what they are intended to do and it produces jobs for you guys.

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Kill it, cook it, eat it.

I didnt say no stopping power, I said lack of stopping power meaning its not as great as the old standard 30 - 06 or .308 and lacks the range of those calibers.

as noted by the fact that their lightening M14's, modernising them and sending them out to troops since the enemy has been sitting just beyond 600 yards which is just the limit of the 223 cartridges range as of late, which probably is exactly what would have happened if we had ever fought the russians back in the 60's with the damn thing.

after all the M16 rifle just plain wasnt designed for actual combat in mind, it was a guards rifle that just happened to be very light, handy and hold alot of ammo in a smaller space than the 30 - 06

and the gas pistol design has been around for forever and used on thee most reliable rifle designs since the begining of WW2, most notibly the garand and the AK 47, its just that with the M16 they removed the piston and made it direct injection causing the bolt cracking problem some troops have been having, not to mention how cheap the materals were and how weak the steel was on the early ones.

So I think the ideal inbetween would be an M16 with a gas pistol design like the 416, the AK and the garand in an intermediate cartridge between the .30 - 06/.308 and the .223, which just so happens to be the .25 cal grendal

and I think the same thing should apply to the 9mm and the .45, give them .40's with a better designed gun than the 92 fs that can take the higher pressure nato ammo.

and FYI the reason why I think the cartridge should be upped on both the rifle and the pistol is because they cant use hollowpoints with either of them because of the geneva convention so they just have to size them up to do the job, theres just no other way, its either that or use heavier loads with FMJ.

A little warning before pictures like that please.

This forum isn't Liveleak.

Thanks for chiming in ...

I agree with you that a 308 (or 30-06) round would, in general, have more stopping power than 5.56mm and the range of the 5.56mm is certainly less than the 30 caliber rounds.

Incidentally, the early reports from the Vietnam War indicated that while the enemies who were shot with a 308 round died at the spot he was shot, the ones shot with a 5.56mm died not too far from the point of impact. This is due to the fact that the early M193 (5.56mm) round fragmented easily upon entering soft tissue and actually inflicted more internal damage than the more current SS109 (62 grain).

As for the distance, a general-use assault rifle is seldom used for ranges more than 500 yds. In fact, most of the engagements are discharged in less than 100 yds; more likely less than 50 yds. I remember going thru urban fighting training, the Israelis (our instructors) warned us that urban fighting will require 3-5 times more ammo than other types of scenarios. As such, I think one will get bogged down pretty quickly with the same number of 308 rounds.


For long distance shooting (600 yds and beyond), I believe we have Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR), M24, Barrette 50BMG, CheyTec50 and other more accurate rifles for the snipers.


Where and when was this stated? I'd be interested to read more about this.

Interesting ... I know of jamming issues in the early release due to change of ammunition composition which was quickly rectified back to the original ammo and the jamming went away. I have not heard of bolt cracking.

I'm thinking it will be a fine weapon.

with the guards rifle thing it was something my father taught me as he was in the airforce for radar school during the 1950's till he was picked up RCA in 62' or 63' for radar work installing radars in places like alaska.

basically I think he found out about it either from there or from one of his buddies who stayed in the airforce.

ill ask him latter about this as I'm not sure where he got this information but I do think its true since in a way I think the M16 rifle does really resemble the gun he was assigned from back then and kept too, the M1 Carbine which was a guards weapon on the airforce base he was on and they were assigned that as well to protect the equipment if anyone broke in and tried to steal stuff off of the planes or sabotage them


with the 600 yards thing that's just what i've heard but I dont quite know either, but I think that the miltary was basically issuing snipers the .223 M16 rifle rather than the M14 .308 because thats what they just had on hand.

basically it might be best to list that under the military screw up column along with them issuing glock magazines instead of beretta mags to the soldiers.

IE not giving them what they really needed to do their job and these might be the kind of snipers trying to pick off people from afar like that guy with the barette .50 call on the side of the road from a mile away or whatever.

but for close up I wouldnt really doubt the efectiveness of a .223 too much its just I dont really trust the M16 design because of the stories I've heard about it like that girl whos M16/M4 rifle jammed on her in a truck when she really needed it to work, ending up in her publicized capture at the begining of the war a few years ago

and I'm an avid springfield 30 - 06 A3/M14/Garrand fan and I just plain dont care for the .223 cartridge although I do kind of like the look of the M4 and the Styer AUG with none of the **** on it that they do in iraq, I just wouldnt really trust the current M16/ M4's with my life if I could help it.

with the bolt cracking its supposedly something that just happens over time with worn versions of the gun that are in service and it might be something that only happens to neglected rifles but on the other hand your in the military, you should be able to trust your rifle and handgun to work under all conditions regardless if it was cleaned in the past hour or past month.

basically I think a military grade rifle or handgun should be up to par with the old miltary guns of yesteryear, damn near indestructible, and even if they're broken they'll still fire fine like My WW2 Walther P38 did with a cracked slide atleast for 50 - 100 rounds (FYI I didnt know it was cracked at the time otherwise I wouldnt have done that!)

and that thing is still in operation and working fine after I got another slide for it and had the recoil springs replaced, now thats a quality gun!

Thanks for the info ... interesting reading.

My understanding is the M16 was initially purchased in a relatively small number by the Air Force, and issued to airmen guarding bases, and it was eventually introduced to Viet Nam. Other branches of the armed services became interested and adopted the rifle. One version was the CAR 15, a short barreled version (11 inches if I recall correctly). The direct impingement method of cycling the action on these short barrelled version was quite abrupt, and the harsh cycling caused some cracking in the locking lugs of the bolt. I understand this issue still existed until recently in the M4, but don't know of any first hand accounts. Other experts on this forum may have better information than I do, but this is my understanding from talking with vets and former specop guys....

Let us not forget the U.S. Cavalry tested 1000 Luger pistols in .30 caliber with good results. It was pulled from the field trials because Luger did not care for a large .45cal round.

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2nd Admen.-Right to bear AR 's

I'll admit, I'm just not an HK fan. Some love them, I guess it's the Jack Bauer factor. I think their weapons are overpriced (stamped slides, polymer frames, and o-rings for barrel bushings...they should be cheaper than glocks) and I've heard many accounts that their customer service is horrible. Their stance on the 2nd amendment may have something to do with that.

I'm not a fan either and I have heard of the HK USP having feeding problems in .40 but its just that the stories about the M16/M4 failures have made me nervious about the design in general and thus open to any idea that might fix that issue and save more of our troops lives in battle

although if its just the shorter M4 that's having this problem and not the M16 that changes things drastically and kind of explains the love/hate kind of relationship I've been hearing about the design for quite some time.

personally though with HK I do really like the MP5/G3 based designs as they damn near seem to be bulletproof, but none of the others as If I was going to spend damn near a grand on a pistol it would be all steel and a revolver, a damn good one too, IE pre dash - 3 pre 1980 smith revolver.

hell I could probably get two for the price of one USP or HK30, although the only one I like is the HK P30/HK45 and thats only because of the funky looking grips

A very interesting thread to be sure. I bring this up to hear your thoughts. Prior to 1988 there were many designers that worked independently of the various factories, for that matter well over 75 or80 percent of the military full auto guns came out of private design, ie. everything designed by the master himself, John Browning. With the passage of the 1988 guncontrol Hughes Amendment banning any new private machineguns , there is virtually no way an inventor working alone in his shop in the garage or basement can come up with a new design and hope to sell it and recover or make money if the government does not buy it. I feel that these type of laws hinder our ability to field the best equipment for our young men and women who are on the line for us everyday. Just my 2cents.

Paris Is, 1985:

We were the last platoon to be issued the A1 in boot camp, the A2 was coming, the big deal being 3-round burst instead of full-auto.

These babies were OLD! During the full-auto training day, they let us fire as many mags of full-auto we cared to, and we cared a lot!! They got so hot, we couldn't hold them anymore. A spent case landed on my left arm, and it was so hot it left a scar that is still there!

Not one Marine on the firing line had a malfunction. Not one.

As always, YMMV

In 1991
Heckler & Koch is sold to become a part of the large British defense group British Aerospace/Royal Ordnance.


I think the HK P7M8 is one of the finest pistols ever made. The M60 borrowed heavily from the German MG42. I hope whatever is chosen is what works best.

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Bob

True and I agree but some more M&A happened after that ... this is from their website:

Oh dear. The replacement of the M249 has NOTHING to do with DI vs piston operation. The 249 is a piston weapon, too. As far as I can see, the current M249s are probably getting worn out and with experience from Afghanistan, the M249s weight has brought the requirement for a lighter weapon. The M27 will be about 6lbs lighter than the M249 going by the H&K numbers for the M27 and the data for the SAW on Wikipedia. Supposedly the 416 platform is more resistant to dust and dirt than anything else except maybe an AK. I am not so sure the M249 has such a good rep.

I am a little surprised that the M27 seems to have only a 16" barrel. Comments on the accuracy of the weapon can be found here. Corps to Replace SAW With Automatic Rifle

As for the 5.56 vs 7.62 debate, is does not apply here as the requirement was for a light weapon. We all know from the M14 and the FAL that light weight, full auto fire and the 7.62 cartridge don't mix, and so do the Marines.

This weapon is as good as it is going to get until the armed forces of the Western world get their heads out of somewhere smelly and dump the 5.56 altogether for something in the 6.5-7mm range. We have 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC already in semis, but whether they make good military rounds for full auto fire I do not know. This argument could have been avoided a long time ago if the US ordnance board had accepted the British .280 caliber after WWII.

So what let the Germans make the rifle and dont compain. They already make the big gun that sits on top of Abrams tank. No manufacturer should own the business. They have a plant in the USA. Government does not function or think like the average citizen. M4s that are worn out or dont work are as good as scrap metal. There were competitions for manufacturers to present better rifles. Incidentally Colt does not automatically get the business. Even if they drop the price of there product after we start shopping. If the gov was concerned they would open up government armories again. It is unfortunate that a US company didnt get the contract but historically many excellent firearms come from "over there" and have been produced in other countries under liscense. Remember Mausers or Argentine Colts 1911s? If the soldiers have a good reliable rifle who cares where it comes from. They have the plant here and Americans will be making them for other Americans. Except those that are given out to other countries. Do you know we make lots of 762x39 ammo for other countries? They are going to reissue Krag rifles I hear though...if that makes everyone happier. Maybe they will dig up John Browning too or consult General Hatcher.

I think the HK P7M8 is one of the finest pistols ever made. The M60 borrowed heavily from the German MG42. I hope whatever is chosen is what works best.[/QUOTE]

Don't forget our beloved 1903 Springfield was also based on a German design, the M98 Mauser. We paid royalties to the Germans for years.

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Support your Police, & NRA

Our 03 was based on a Mauser, but wasn't as good. Our M-60 was based on a MG-42 and wasn't as good. Maybe we should just use the HK the way it is and have the better gun.