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Old 12-03-2011, 05:42 PM
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Any experience with Front Sight Training Institute? Any experience with Front Sight Training Institute? Any experience with Front Sight Training Institute? Any experience with Front Sight Training Institute? Any experience with Front Sight Training Institute?  
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Default Any experience with Front Sight Training Institute?

Located in Vegas/Pahrump. Just wondering if any forum members have any input, or could relate their experiences, good or bad.

Thanks.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:44 AM
Bekeart Bekeart is online now
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Did a search for - Front Sight Training Institute.

Found an old post from 2009 about some problems.

The lawsuit at Front Sight

Bekeart

12/3/11 Just to add clarification - I only searched on this forum - did not google.

Last edited by Bekeart; 12-04-2011 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Added clairification about the search - only on forum
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:09 PM
Jellybean Jellybean is offline
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So where are all the Front Sight lovers on this forum?

I had looked at their site after hearing all their adoring fans on another forum. They were looking for instructors and I was interested in applying, but they didn't want shooters, they wanted former teachers that had no shooting experience. Go figure!

Anyway, as I was doing a search on them, I found the basis for the lawsuit mentioned above, it was all due to Scientology.

I've never been there by the way.
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekeart View Post
Did a search for - Front Sight Training Institute.

Found an old post from 2009 about some problems.

The lawsuit at Front Sight

Bekeart

12/3/11 Just to add clarification - I only searched on this forum - did not google.
Me neither. As soon as we find someone not scared to google it, maybe we can get to the botom of this...
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Old 12-04-2011, 02:17 PM
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I can tell you this , I made the mistake of contacting them once regarding going down there for a class. The constant calls, emails and stuff that I was bombarded with finally convinced me that they were just too anxious to suit me. It finally got to the point that I had to threaten to go to the AG's office before they would leave me alone. As far as the value of the training goes, I have no knowledge of anything bad that goes on there. YMMV.
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Old 12-04-2011, 02:28 PM
redneckemt redneckemt is offline
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The fool that runs front sight as made scammed more than a few people, promised special deals, promotions recieved funds and failed to deliver.

There was a shooting in Florida where a Citizen with a CCP used deadly force in protection of his own life and the lifes of others during a robbery. The idiot at Front Sight critized the Citizen, and explained how he should have handled the situation, which was rebuked by a Prosecutor who explained how what Front Sight suggested would have been Murder, not a good shoot.

Front Sight as also "corrected" several Police Shoots. When few if any of their Instructors have ever been a Cop.

Most of their Instructors have never heard a round fired in anger, or deployed a weapon in anger. (Unless they have hired some more insturctors)

What is a Four Weapons Combat Master certificate? If the qwack is the 2nd person to get the cert, who was the first? The 3rd-5th? 6th-100th?

Notice how the NRA stopped allowing this fool to buy advertisments in their Mags. (unless they've started back)
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Old 12-04-2011, 03:36 PM
Moonman Moonman is offline
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I know from past experience that they must be connected to the same PR setup that the AARP has because you will get stuff and emails about daily it seemed. Was a P.I.T.A..
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Old 12-04-2011, 06:28 PM
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I had the same experience as monet61, they got to be a real pain in the posterior until I got rid of them. I understand that attendance at their classes subjected one to being pressured to buy real estate they were selling. Just my 2 cents with no first hand knowledge. Keep shootin'
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:15 PM
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They had a ad on this forum that I clicked on once. I get about two e-mails a day from them, I wish they would go away.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:39 PM
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I have a friend that has been to their 4 day defensive pistol class a couple of times. He liked the time and the instruction he received there. He has never mentioned being pressured about the real estate venture. I have looked at it a couple of times. A while back they had the 4 day defensive pstol class going for 69 dollars but I puttzed around too long and didn't buy it in time. Right now he is pushing a life time deal for the 4 day defensive pistol class for 159. I am still on the fence about it.

bob
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Old 12-04-2011, 10:05 PM
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Funny, I googled it and there is nothing recent about what this place is up to. Sounds like fun, but I think I would still have reservations about it.
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Old 12-06-2011, 04:11 AM
LennyLames LennyLames is offline
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I attended their 4 day Defensive Handgun class for the first time in October. It would've been worth it even if I had to pay full list price, but I got a heavily discounted rate for a weekday session. I even paid for my dad, since taking him along was the only way I could get away from the spouse and kids without getting any flak.

There are other training institutions and in your research, you will come across heated discussions, as I did, on which one is better, or why one is worthless compared to another, or why a specific shooting technique is superior over what another school advocates. My outlook, as I was selecting, was that as long as the curriculum is fairly comprehensive, I would end up being better trained than I was before and I could adjust my newly learned skills as appropriate. My previous lack of training became evident on the 3rd day of the class, when we each went through the simulator (live rounds, multiple bad people and some good ones, imagine the simulator as your home and the bad guys as home invaders). I did well in the simulator and even did a tactical reload (I previously had no idea what that was). Prior to the class, in spite of knowing how to shoot at concentric circles really well, I wouldn't have known what to do in a defensive situation. Do I stay in place, or do I move? If move, how should I move? If I see, smell, or hear someone, do I aim, shoot, then what? Of course, a real situation would be the ultimate test. I hope never to experience one, but it's better to be prepared.

Lawsuit against Front Sight? Yes, I had read about that prior to signing up. Not really relevant to my training unless Front Sight was suddenly forced to shut down just before my scheduled class, but I didn't think that was going to happen. I ran across the executive in charge of instructor hiring right after the class. We had a good discussion on the instructor qualifications, tiers, and lifestyle, and he said they don't have enough qualified instructors to handle the student volume, so they have to run these Instructor Development classes to increase their potential instructor pool. What fun, getting paid to shoot! However, it was apparent that being an instructor involves too much time away from home and family.

I observed that the instructors all followed standardized techniques and motions, so the quality of instruction is consistent. No superstar instructors here, where one class will get better instructions and secret techniques over another. However, the organization appears to be open to improving their techniques based on collective feedback, e.g., for Type 3 malfunctions, they explained how they had improved their procedure to first check for a spare magazine prior to locking the slide back and dropping the current magazine, etc. I like this collective approach to process improvement.

Ah, the malfunctions. I previously thought defensive shooting was all about draw (present) and stop the bad guy, but things do not always go as planned. There were many exercises on identification and resolution of malfunctions, emergency reloads, multiple target prioritization, etc. I did get a few real malfunctions (How's that for practice?), until I changed the recoil spring in my compact 45 ACP. I had read somewhere that compact 1911 recoil springs may not last as long as those in full sized 1911s, hence I brought a spare and I had to replace the original after only about 600 rounds. We shot almost 800 rounds in class. I'd never done this much shooting in such a short time frame. In fact, after the first day, I didn't think I could last another 3 days. One night, I was chatting with the clerk at the ammo section in Walmart in Pahrump, NV (the nearest town) and he claimed that their store sold the most ammunition among all other Walmarts, by a large margin.

There were presentations and exercises on tactical situations and movements, as well as moral and legal aspects of defensive actions. N.B., they make it clear that legalities vary by state.

The instructors also emphasized safety protocols. We weren't even allowed to pick dropped items from the ground until the range was clear, or until an instructor could do it for you. The only time the firm but helpful instructors turned into boot camp drill instructors was when a blatant and repeated safety violation was observed. They do publish their "incident reports" Front Sight Firearms Training Institute. When reading through these, it becomes clear why they're so particular about prohibiting certain equipment, or about teaching specific steps, e.g., for presentation (draw), reholstering, emptying the chamber, etc. Reading these incident reports is very educational and teaches one to try to avoid the mistakes that others make. It's the same reason why I, as a private pilot, read NTSB accident reports; I just don't have enough lifetimes to make the same mistakes that other pilots make. At first glance, some of the steps that are taught may seem unnecessary, such as planting the support hand flat on the abdomen during certain stages of the presentation (draw) or upon reholstering. However, my analysis of the ergonomics indicates that such steps do not degrade speed and may actually improve the rhythm, and definitely improve safety. Not only are you taught to shoot better; they also teach you how not to be so good at shooting yourself

The time schedules were adhered to consistently. I'd hear the surrounding ranges start firing, and within a minute or so, our class would start firing as well. Forget about your empty brass; you're not allowed to collect them. I surmise the empty brass policy is primarily for maximizing class time, as well as for range safety. Perhaps they also collect and sell the scrap. Any astute business person would, if it improved the bottom line.

They've done away with the heavy marketing sessions in class. I did read about those in other forums. The only explicit marketing that I recall was an optional evening session on Fort Knox gun safes, which I attended because I need to get a safe of some kind. I do receive the emails, some of which I consider interesting, but I've opted out of the phone calls.

Prior to this class, my only experience with "fast" shooting was Bullseye rapid fire, 5 shots in 10 seconds (2 second average per shot), and starting with the gun already aimed at the target. By the time the class was over, I could draw from a concealed holster and hit the thoracic cavity consistently (2 shots, controlled pair), 10 meter distance, in under 2.5 seconds (faster at shorter distances, where most encounters occur). Yes, they emphasized controlled pair such that the 2nd shot is also sighted. My speed is nowhere near the best shooters, but I'm much better than I was before, and presumably better than most gang bangers/murderers.

The only parts that I found to be relatively easy were the precision shooting exercises. As a former bullseye shooter, shooting "one ragged hole" with 2 hands at only 7 meters, using 45 ACP (large holes) was not that hard for me. They had an exercise for shooting under pressure, utilizing custom Front Sight paper targets that had the silhouette of a person representing a loved one, with the loved one's name inscribed on the silhouette. No ex-husbands' or ex-wives' or in-laws' names here . Superimposed behind the loved one's head was the silhouette of part of a hostage taker's head. I didn't have difficulty drilling "one ragged hole" in the bad guy's cranio-ocular area and I barely messed up my "spouse's" hairdo. The problem I had to overcome in the first 2 days was that my groups were too small, which meant that I wasn't shooting fast enough. In defensive shooting, there's a much bigger target for stopping the bad guy/s, and speed takes precedence over micro-precision. At first, increasing my speed resulted in disproportionately worse target spreads, but I eventually found an optimum rhythm, which I hope will improve as I keep practicing.

Other exercises for shooting under pressure were one-on-one competition involving shooting a hostage taker's head at 7 meters, then 2 bad guys that were set quite a bit apart at 15 meters. Hitting the hostage automatically disqualified a contestant. This exercise used reactive steel targets. There was the aforementioned simulator shooting exercise, and a skills test on the last day which involved shooting from various distances under various time limits, and timed exercises on various exceptions such as malfunction clearing, emergency reloads, etc.

It was an excellent experience for me and I learned a lot. I experienced at least 2 "Eureka!" moments when practicing some of the teachings, realizing exactly what I'd been missing before. I bought their practice manual so I could continue practicing what I learned. I initially thought the manual was a bit expensive for the amount of paper, but there's a lot of value in retaining the knowledge. I may take the class again when my schedule permits it. They also have more advanced handgun courses which I may attend, but the one I'm most interested in is a 4-day defensive shotgun course (really my preference for home defense). There's a lot of room for improvement left in me and I think they can continue to provide it. They have some "lifetime" packages that would allow me to attend several courses for an unlimited number of times, but I'm not sure I can commit to attending all or many of those courses so many times.

As a side note, I met "Walter" from California who was hoping to meet the girl of his dreams at Front Sight. Imagine that, a girl that would prefer Guns over diamonds And ammunition over Roses, and love wearing Eau de Poudre à Canon parfum (gunpowder perfume). I thought he'd have a better chance of winning a Nevada casino jackpot because if you look at shooters' demographics, it's like going to a computer convention, albeit with a tougher looking crowd
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:35 AM
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One of the things I like about this site is that on any topic we have, eventually we find someone who knows what they are talking about. Thanks for the in depth experience report, LennyLames. Keep shootin'
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Old 08-16-2014, 02:48 PM
jjwsw007 jjwsw007 is offline
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I realize this is an older thread but I'd like to comment. I attended the 4 day handgun class last November and I soon realized how little I knew about gun handling and shooting. The instructors were both personable and professional. I plan on going back again this year and polishing my skills.
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