CIA Question

Sorry if this has been discussed before.
Do CIA case officers carry weapons? In the US? Abroad?
Is there an unofficial protocol?
Of course this thread is strictly speculation.

While I guess they carry 9mm Glocks nowadays.

Ed Lovette who authored the below book was a firearms instructor for the CIA years ago. New recruits had a choice of a 640 or Browning HiPower. Almost all picked the BHP first, then after a few months on the job they traded it it for a 640.


http://www.amazon.com/Snubby-Revolv...5714/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1323922913&sr=8-2

CIA doesn't have agents, they have case officers or operations officers. In CIA parlance an "agent"is a foreign national that has been recruited to act as an asset in place.

fourXfour said:

While I guess they carry 9mm Glocks nowadays.

Ed Lovette who authored the below book was a firearms instructor for the CIA years ago. New recruits had a choice of a 640 or Browning HiPower. Almost all picked the BHP first, then after a few months on the job they traded it it for a 640.


http://www.amazon.com/Snubby-Revolv...5714/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1323922913&sr=8-2

Click to expand...

Thanks for that link. I just had Missus P&R Fan order that book for me.
Jim

mpi said:

CIA doesn't have agents, they have case officers or operations officers. In CIA parlance an "agent"is a foreign national that has been recruited to act as an asset in place.

Click to expand...

Thank you! Corrected. Sorry about the incomplete sentences.

You might want to get Valerie Plame's book about the Agency and how her husband's lack of support for Bush's invasion of Iraq cost her her job as an officer. It's heavily redacted, but nonetheless very interesting. Alas, the title escapes me at the moment. Search Amazon by author. She trained with various weapons.

Going back to OSS days, try to find the books by Aline, Countess of Ramonones. The first is, "The Spy Wore Red." Your library may have it. She was American, working out of Madrid during WWII, and continued as an agent after marrying the Count, a prominent member of the Spanish noblity. She used her .25 Beretta to kill a gypsy who came at her with a knife. Didn't name the model,probably a 418.

Most OSS personnel had either a Colt .32 auto or a .45 auto.
See, "You're Stepping On My Cloak and Dagger, by Roger Somebody. I read the book in junior high school; can't offhand think of his last name. Hall, I think. He led guerilla forces in France. Tells a lot about recruitment and training at what is now Camp David.

Overseas as in SW Asia? Generally speaking, yes. Weapons were issued. (The interesting folks did not draw a check from the CIA, they got checks from the Department of the Interior. There were legalist reasons for this.) Contemporary photo evidence will show a variety of handguns in use - Sigs and Glocks, M4 variants, AKs modified with aftermarket quad rails and parts, H&K weapons systems, et al.In many cases it is difficult to draw the line between employees and "those who worked for" in the photographic record - such as it is - from recent conflicts.

At one point training consisted of firing a few rounds out of a Chief's Special on a range more or less just to say you'd done it, similar to the way that non technical AF officers circa 2000 got six hours of training learning how to fire a 9mm Beretta. That was long ago.

There are some employees of the CIA that work in a paramilitary capacity that are actually quite well armed, they have equipment similar to - or better than - those in the military special operations community.

Lots of CIA jobs are... well boring... and don't involve weapons at all of course. Though prior to a "boring" assignment in a not so boring area it was possible for weapons familiarization training. Sometimes this would be conducted by a private company. Basically it was show everyone how to do the basics with an M4 or other carbine and a bit of firing a pistol. At the time the State Department was specifying M4s and Glock 19s for their... er... contract employees... so this combo was used in training by other agencies. This was to make everyone feel better, or at least more on aboard, prior to going to certain areas. The theory being that if traveling in a convoy and something happened, that those now "trained" could shoot back.

At one point in the 90s, the intelligence community had some numbers of sterile M16A1s floating around. These were built up from parts on receivers made in house (sort of, long story). They had no serial numbers, makers mark, etc. Some CAR15s (this was before the M4) were also made. At one point a number of Beretta 92D Centurions sold off by some other agency to commerical channels were also purchased, repurposed and saw saw. (That would have been about circa 1996.) They came in plain cardboard boxes with one magazine.

Anyway... most jobs involve working an office and you never see, handle or fire weapons unless such is your hobby.

Thanks. My wife asked me about it after seeing a TV show. A female CIA operative had to take a weapon off a dead body to defend herself. She was not carrying a gun.
I think the show was Covert Affairs. Mary asked me if the CIA "agents" were authorized to carry a weapon. I wasn't sure how to answer.

I expect the case officers you are referring to would be acting as we see Bond, James Bond, portrayed in the movies. Many of those officers are acting as "illegals", that is, without diplomatic immunity. In the vast majority of the world, being found with a weapon without said immunity would be a ticket to many years in jail and wouldn't fit with one's cover identity. Since one's only protection in that real life role is to be invisible, not a real good idea.

Out of curiousity, exactly what do you think would happen to the erstwhile Mr Bond if apprehended in the real world after the creation of all that on screen mayhem? Yeah, there are places that would bury the issues if the price was high enough, but you'd never again leave your cubicle in whatever office building you worked in.

Those at work in more flamboyant areas of operation play by different rules.

In the mid-80's I bought 2 CZ pistols from the "Agricultural Attache" in Bogota when he was leaving the country. He had a full auto Thompson and an M16 also for sale but outside my price range. I've also seen State Department diplomatic protection service officers with MP5s and a wide range of auto pistols in several Latin countries. They were usually the largest man in the room, with a man purse.
Cherokee Slim

Fair Game is the title of Valerie Plame's book. It is a good read despite the CIA's redaction of a big part of the text.

If you are looking for a good read on the subject I would try "first in" by Gary Schroen, he was with the first CIA team on the ground in Afghanistan in Sept. of 2001. I would note his team carried Hi Powers and AK's, because neither is clearly "American".

It was also interesting to see how they stocked up on equipment for the trip. Each of the members was issued a set amount of cash to go out and buy supplies. The author went to his local REI to buy what he was going to need. I had figured the CIA had a warehouse full of everything one would need on a covert operation in a hostile land.

RonJ said:

Sorry if this has been discussed before.
Do CIA case officers carry weapons? In the US? Abroad?
Is there an unofficial protocol?
Of course this thread is strictly speculation.

Click to expand...

Not that I am admitting to know anything, but that's classified information.

Only met one, about a hundred years ago. I was whining about the fmj 9mm I had for my HiPower. He gave me an aircrewman and a box of Hydro-Shok Scorpions 38spl. I still have the box of ammo around here somewhere, but the HiPower went for a Gold Cup, and the aircrewman stayed in a desk drawer in Subic Bay. ( I know, I know, but I was young)

And yes, he carried a Python. I assume now to have been private purchase.

They will only tell you, just before they kill you with it.

rbishop said:

Fair Game is the title of Valerie Plame's book. It is a good read despite the CIA's redaction of a big part of the text.

Click to expand...

That's it! Plame mentioned having been trained to handle paramilitary missions, if need be. She used a variety of weapons. She operated in Greece and some other countries before being assigned to HQ at Langley.

I think it was Scooter Libby, Cheney's Chief of Staff, who outed her to a reporter. He was mad that her husband, an ambassador, wouldn't say that he thought that Saddam had WMD. His evidence didn't suggest that.

I found the book at the library. It's amazing how much was redacted, but it was still a good read. (Redacted means that the Agency drew black lines through much of her text, eliminating still classified data..)

Another excellent book on this is the book, "Spooks" by Robert Hougan. This was published in the eighties and also covers exploits after they left the CIA.

HUMMMMM.
What would you like to have.
What Caj said.
Pay check? From who?
Aint never been in the military.
Blessings

Great Response!

mpi said:

CIA doesn't have agents, they have case officers or operations officers. In CIA parlance an "agent"is a foreign national that has been recruited to act as an asset in place.

Click to expand...

As a former US Army Military Intelligence Officer, three tours in Vietnam,
two of which were as a CIA detailee, the third after the troops left (and later a CIA Operations Officer), I can assure you that we all were well armed indeed.

But, in regard to how to refer to CIA field or operational persons, they are most definitely "operations officers". The term "agent" refers to a recruited individual, not a CIA case officer. It never fails to amaze me the ignorance of today's media, most of whom refer to CIA officers as "agents." They also refer to people like Rick Ames, a former CIA officer who was a recruited agent of the Soviet KGB, and Robert Hanssen, a former FBI Special Agent, also a recruited agent of the KGB, as "double agents". A double agent is a recruited agent of two opposing intelligence services, but who owes his loyalty to just one. Thus both Ames and Hanssen were not "double agents" because they were only the recruited agents of one service, not two. This bit of terminology also bewilders most of the media, and book publishers.

Finally, to get back to the arms question, the answer is "depends upon
the situation". In Vietnam my choice was to carry three handguns, a Browning 25 ACP, a S&W Chiefs Special and the best of them all, a Browning T Series Hi-Power. If the occasion called for it, I had a Swedish K Submachine Gun, and one of the first two Uzi's in country, great for concealment, as it would fit into an airlines plastic shoulder bag.

Have a nice day.

RKO

RKO said:

As a former US Army Military Intelligence Officer, three tours in Vietnam,
two of which were as a CIA detailee, the third after the troops left (and later a CIA Operations Officer), I can assure you that we all were well armed indeed.

But, in regard to how to refer to CIA field or operational persons, they are most definitely "operations officers". The term "agent" refers to a recruited individual, not a CIA case officer. It never fails to amaze me the ignorance of today's media, most of whom refer to CIA officers as "agents." They also refer to people like Rick Ames, a former CIA officer who was a recruited agent of the Soviet KGB, and Robert Hanssen, a former FBI Special Agent, also a recruited agent of the KGB, as "double agents". A double agent is a recruited agent of two opposing intelligence services, but who owes his loyalty to just one. Thus both Ames and Hanssen were not "double agents" because they were only the recruited agents of one service, not two. This bit of terminology also bewilders most of the media, and book publishers.

Finally, to get back to the arms question, the answer is "depends upon
the situation". In Vietnam my choice was to carry three handguns, a Browning 25 ACP, a S&W Chiefs Special and the best of them all, a Browning T Series Hi-Power. If the occasion called for it, I had a Swedish K Submachine Gun, and one of the first two Uzi's in country, great for concealment, as it would fit into an airlines plastic shoulder bag.

Have a nice day.

RKO

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Long time no see amigo-hows they been hangin'