If you dispatched to "shots fired", and when you arrived, lights and sirens blaring and adrenalin pumping, and saw a guy in civies, wearing a red sash with POLICE written on it, holding a gun, would you think, "Oh, he's one of us. No problem", or would you have him spread-eagled, until you saw a badge?

DSM Safety Products, for Law Enforcement, Concealed Carry Licenses and Security Personnel.

When I was first linked to this, I thought it was a joke. Then I decided it was not a joke. They are serious about selling 'em. I just can't really see anyone buying one, or believing one if they saw it.

Am I too cynical?

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I always take precautions

Don't care what he/she is wearing.
If they do not unazz/ or holster the gun at my command they will
be lit up.

Anything for a buck...

Since it appears that almost anyone could make or wear a sash that said POLICE on it, well how would you know? My training says to do whatever the arriving on-scene officer says to do until my identification as a LEO is validated.

I've been told to have my credentials/badge in my non-shooting hand, clearly visible; covering any threat as necessary; if the officer tells me to drop the weapon I will comply and reitierate my position as a LEO. I surely don't want to get shot by another good guy.

I would recognize 99% of the deputies in my department, and about 90% of the state troopers and local officers in the 5 or 6 police departments in the county. Besides, dispatch tries to ascertain who's involved in a officer shots fired call before we get there anyway.

Though I've never enountered a sash, I have responded to calls where there are LEO's on the scene I don't know in raid jackets or who are displaying their badge. In some cases I have seperated them from their firearm until I figure out what's up. I once relieved a FBI agent of his firearm at a scene for a few minutes until I got the situation a little better sorted out, he was cool about it.

If the sash was something that local LEO's knew was being utilized ahead of time, it might not be a bad thing to consider. Frankly, the reflective mesh "SHERIFF DEPT" vest I keep in the trunk of my patrol car and POV is just as effective.

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- Change it back -

A don't-shoot-me sash, eh? I wonder if Mr. Lessman has some Italian heritage?

That basically standard from my experience with numerous agencies and damn good advise. Worked narcotics in several multi-jurisdictional task forces. Most uniform guys would not know us and we certainly didn't 'look' like the police.

Several years ago we had a plain clothes campus LEO shot by a city uniformed officer as both were working a major sporting event. The plain clothes guy had fired a couple of rounds and did not follow instructions as given by the uniformed officer. Bad scene all the way around but the campus guy lacked proper training.

No... Not cynical but having questions which is good. Since I'm the inventor of the DSM safety banner, I will host any sincere questions.

Moderators: I'm not into guerilla marketing and this is only meant to educate those with questions.

First to answer your question... if the shooting is over. Order the off-duty to drop or holster his weapon... place him into how your dept teaches a high risk incident.... a prone or kneeing position and approach under cover (contact-cover principles apply). The thing that I'm trying to accomplish is to interupt the OODA loop so that the off-duty or plainclothes officer isn't immediately shot because he has a gun in his hand. While this doesn't happen that often.... it does happen, about once every 13-18 months based on a 18 year study; we had TWO friendly fire incidents early this year less than 60 days apart (one in Baltimore, MD and the second on Long Island, NY) both solely based on misidentification. There is no doubt in my mind that the Nassau County Police Officer would still be alive today if he had deployed the safety banner.

The original idea came from questions asked while I was teaching "Response to the Active Shooter" class at my department. The Trolley Square Mall incident was what we were studying... one of the officers asked "If I was off-duty, 50 miles out of jurisdiction and was involved in an active shooting incident.. how should I identify myself so I'm not mistaken as the nut in the mall with the gun?" GREAT question, my response was the old response to hold his badge in one hand, gun in the other and keep yelling POLICE.... well after thinking about this I felt that having half your hands occuppied with the badge wasn't the best use of that hand.... you may need to apply accurate fire which is impaired by only having one hand on your weapon, you may need to dial a cell phone or you may have to grab something...possibly the BG (never say never). So I began to research what products were available for plainclothes officers that clearly would identify them both front and back and be deployed in seconds using one's off hand, during a critical incident and could be worn concealed 365 days a year in any climate. I also began to research how often does friendly fire occur in police circles. Well there wasn't any products that fit all those requirements and the idea was born. Now this was the best I could come up with to display both front and back identification... if there's a better idea to save lives, I'm all for it.

We have outfitted several high profile units within several Federal agencies along with several smaller local PDs.... my goal is to save lives.

We recently won the 2011 Cygnus Law Enforcement Group Innovation Award at the IACP conference this year....

While I will only ship LE models to verifiable Law Enforcement agencies... I do my part to keep these out of the bad guys hands... however once the officer has it... it's up to him to safeguard. While working SWAT I can't tell you how many times we had to hunt down longguns/duty sidearms or creds and badges that were stolen out of officers/agents POVs... so everyone has an invested interest in keeping their gear out of the BGs hands.

Here's a video that may help with some points I might have missed... and if you still have a question ...... call me and I would be happy to discuss your questions.

Policestore - Brownells LE QD-360-ID Identification Banner | BLUtube

Oh yeah..... I'm half Sicilian... for the record. lol

I have no idea if this is a usefull product or not but welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome.... been here for about 5 years... I don't post much.... but learn tons about S&W revolvers while standing on the sidelines.

Simple answer everyone on scene that I do not know holding a piece, is going to be told put the gun down, and assume the position until I can figure who is who. The only people I want holding a gun are police officers, and if I don't know who you are, then I am the only cop I want holding a gun!

Actually not a stupid question....Retired LEO's in a strange enviroment. I remember what the guy at the Gifford shooting that was armed said... He was to late to save her, shots already fired and what if he stood up with a gun.......Damn good question...Responding officers knowing somebody is down from gunfire and there is a stranger standing up with a weapon.......In all that termoil I can see a real sad situation. I really don't know how to avoid that in the same kind of situation...Some say put your weapon down quickly others say hold it up, Here is a question in a mess like that was, how do you know there isn't another shooter...Remember what some of the confused witnesses said..They thought there were more than one shooter...I guess you do what you think is right and bear the consequeces later,,

I agree. These people wanted to make a few bucks off anyone they can.

Who would carry one of those things around with them all the time?

As to "surely don't want to get shot by another good guy" I carefully thought about this and decided I do not want to get shot by a bad guy either.

The answer to not being shot is simple. As officers arrive, just lay the gun down on the ground and stand near it.

In my rookie year I had the experience of disarming at gunpoint, two deputy U.S. Marshals in one incident and about a week later a Ranger. All were apoligizing to me as I was doing the same toward them once we got all the wrinkles ironed out. Nobody's feelings got hurt and to a man, they told me they would have done the same thing under the circumstances.

Keep in mind this was VERY rural Texas in the early '80's. My closest backup was 20 minutes away at the closest....

Anybody and everybody that is armed and not displaying a badge and/or uniform goes to the ground AND stays there until I get some help...period....I will ask forgivness later....beats gettin' killed or having to deal with the paperwork of killin' somebody that really didn't deserve it....any cop that can't understand that needs to be ridin' a desk or findin' another job....

it is what it is.....

I came here to field some serious questions if you have one ask....DID ANYONE WATCH THE BROWNELL'S VIDEO I PREVIOUSLY POSTED.

This product WON the 2011 Cynus Law Enforcement Group Innovation award....
if you don't agree come up with a better solution for the friendly fire issue that exist in the LE world. It's not as clean and easy as lying your gun on the floor as officers arrive.... we can discuss several blue on blue shootings and see it's not so cut and dry.

Look gents no one was looking "just to make a buck" or I wouldn't have spent my career as a policeman.... lord knows I could have gotten paid more doing something else.

But after seeing friendly fire being an issue this was my attempt at a solution...... to save lives.

Save your jokes to tell to the families of the officers that were killed by friendly fire........ just so everyone can see how funny you are.

It happens to us (cops) almost every year.... yet it is never is taken seriously.... we all hang our heads in mourning and then go about our normal lives... forgetting those that have needlessly lost their lives to friendly fire.

Upset.... yes... I tend to get that way when people make jokes about trying to save cops lives.

Moderators.... if this isn't useful.... just lock the thread.

All joking aside if something, regardless of its appearance and whether you would wear it or not, saves just one LEO life then in my book I am not going to thumb my nose at it.

I would think those of you here that are LEO's would appreciate the intent whether you think it is rediculous or not.

I thought the sash was kind of ludicrous, till I read the above sentence.
Think about it- if a huge metro department and the surrounding smaller departments knew that PC officers carried the sash, it could prevent some tragedies.
As far as BG's making copies, do you REALLY see many of them plan ahead more than 5 minutes?





The man has offered to field questions.



Good point.




NOT FAIR using logic on us!

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Brownbess - first of all, welcome to the discussion forum; thank you for coming to talk about your product. My "anything for a buck" comment reflects my experiences with all the gimmicks and junk that gets pushed at LEOs and the military from all sorts of different sources.

No, I didn't watch your video; and yes I am aware of the Cop, shot by cop issues facing LEOs - one cop shot by another is too many in my book.

What's to prevent the bad guys, who have already committed violent crimes while posing as both uniformed and plainclothes officers; from buying or imitating the sash?

I see the biggest problem is the communication and coordination between agencies especially when working in other jurisdictions. If I see someone at my border crossing, in civvies, that I don't know, drawing down on someone, such as a vehicle stop, until I know for a fact what's going on I am going to act as my training dictates - cover the threat.

I live in a smaller sized town; most of the local PD knows me either personally or by my address (I go out of town a lot and put my address on the house watch list because of my gun collection).

I'm a Customs Officer on the Northern border; we're confined to our border crossing foot print and if another agency responds to assist we're in uniform so that's not an issue - but off-duty, if I get involved in something I need to make damn sure that I identify myself with my badge/credentials; if the responding officers tell me to do something, like get down on the ground, I need to make sure that my ego doesn't get in the way, and do what I'm told to do, then let them sort it out. If I am involved I should have called 911 and identified myself with a description of what I'm wearing as well.

Thanks for the welcome. First let me give you a bit of my background. I'm a USMC vet. I spent 22 yrs at a mid-size police agency, working patrol, gangs, officer survival/defensive tactics instructor, led an Anti-Crime unit and 13 yrs on SWAT... (those that doubt... google my name). So I'm not just some suit trying to sell you something.

CWO4: Please watch the video.. it will answer 99% of your questions.

I will only ship LE products to verifiable LE agencies.... yes we check every address before shipping.

The safety banner doesn't replace the badge or creds to prove who you are.... what it does is give you a high visibility critical incident identification system that can be viewed from a distance and interupt the OODA loop to have the responsing officers consider all options to include misidentification, better that what's currently available.... the hanging badge has not worked perfectly due to it not being visible from all angles and several cops have lost their lives because the badge was not immediately visible. Again if anyone has a better idea... I will help you get it off the ground and show the route to getting it to the LE circles.

BGs can make or imitate uniforms, badges, so with a bit of work of course you can manufacture anything..... heck I can buy regional decommissioned police vehices at auction. I can have you a full customs uniform or border patrol or any regional uniform.... about an hour after the dry cleaners close... so of course this can be done. Now could I make a small or micro authenticity marking on the banner... but how would you see it from 20 yds? I am open to ideas...

We manufactured one for the Netherlands police with their badge where the "O" in POLITIE was... it came pretty cool looking.

It's always great to have a plan, which may very well work wonderfully if all goes as planned. Look at some of the blue on blue issues, with the addition of adrenalin, auditory exclusion, tunnel vision... that's when mistakes happen. Your 911 call my be mixed in with an overwhemed dispatch center receiving hundreds of calls of an active shooter, in the Trolley Square Mall incident the wife of the officer, who is a full time dispatcher (so she knows exactly what info to give) called SLC 911 and gave her husbands description.... in went into the dispatch center, but because of the overwheming volume of calls the info was never forwarded to the responding officer (Murphy at work again).

If I can figure how to post photos I will post a scenario.

It's early September as you drop your child/grandchild off at school, the youngster waves at you as they enter the school.
As you turn to walk back to your vehicle, you hear a series of muffled gunshots....coming from inside the school.
Your cop instincts kick in and you call 911 as you head towards the doors of the school (remember your kid is in there) and give them the info required including your description. You can feel your heart rate rise and you begin combat breathing techiniques taught in officer survival classes, as you draw your weapon/creds/badge and enter the school you again hear a series of gunfire and children are screaming and running everywhere. As you make your way to the sounds of violence and round a corner.






What is your course of action?





Did you see the barrel of the AK on the ground next to the big kid's leg?








Does it change?




Again I advocate placing armed subjects on the ground with verbal commands from cover, unless their actions are not consistent with the actions of someone trying help or restore order.

What if you again hear sounds of violence (after this encounter), from another area of the school?

What ifs ? Is some of the greatest training to condition our response so we are not found searching for answers on scenarios we have never considered.

Things aren't always as they appear.

It's possible the man standing disarmed the big guy on the floor, and took his pistol, maybe even his "POLICE" sash. Then he dropped the AK by the big guy to make it appear it was his.

I am going to toss this out as well.

Often times, cop-on-cop shootings is not an accident. A local 9 yr officer was fired a couple yrs ago for making a statement that he was waiting to get into a firefight so he could shoot one particular person during the fray.

There are other documented cases where one officer shoots another intentionally and then it comes back to him.

There are sick pups in every profession... I wouldn't use the word "often"..... I feel these are VERY isolated incidents.

All of the "Blue on Blue" cases in my study were based solely on misidentification, not bad tactics (crossfire situations) or bad blood.

If they're common where you are... my old agency is hiring... good pay (starting pay in the high 40's/low 50's)... professional agency.