Attempted gun theft at the range today

[Black_Sheep]

Some friends and I went shooting for about an hour today. When we were packing up to leave, Benny asked if I picked up his Model 64 by mistake. I checked my bag and it wasn't in there so we checked the table behind the firing line where our range bags sat while we were shooting. Benny found his gun under some coats about 8' from where our gear was. There was a group of 4 young guys sharing the lane yet none of them knew how the gun ended up under their coats.

Benny was positive that the gun was in his range bag so we're 99.99% certain that one of the group was attempting to steal it. It takes a lot of nerve to do something like that while the owner is 10' away with a gun in his hand...

[rebs081]

just goes to show ya there are all kinds of people in the world and there not all decent

[NMPinNYC]

Originally Posted by Black_Sheep

Some friends and I went shooting for about an hour today. When we were packing up to leave, Benny asked if I picked up his Model 64 by mistake. I checked my bag and it wasn't in there so we checked the table behind the firing line where our range bags sat while we were shooting. Benny found his gun under some coats about 8' from where our gear was. There was a group of 4 young guys sharing the lane yet none of them knew how the gun ended up under their coats.

Benny was positive that the gun was in his range bag so we're 99.99% certain that one of the group was attempting to steal it. It takes a lot of nerve to do something like that while the owner is 10' away with a gun in his hand...

How'd you wind up looking under those guys' coats? Sounds like a delicate proposition.

[OK Hog Shooter]

Ignorance can be cured... Stupid is forever! Stupid attempting to steal a gun while the owner is shooting a few feet away is certifiable! Duh...

[vytoland]

did you notify the range master or owner and call the police??

[Black_Sheep]

NMPinNYC - Benny was rapidly approaching panic mode so he wasn't bashful about where he looked...

Originally Posted by vytoland

did you notify the range master or owner and call the police??

We let the owner know what happened, he's a no nonsense kind of guy so I'm sure it'll be handled. He was going to see if there was any video from any of the closed circut cameras, I'll ask him what happened next weekend.

[sophie]

Man there is all kinds of crazies out there. I can't believe they would attempt to steal a gun from your friend with you guys so close by. Good thing he wasn't bashful about looking under their coats. Good thinking. Those guys were up to no good. I am suprised everyone kept their cool. That doesn't sound like no accident to me. I can't stand a thief, regardless.



_____
James

[Kelly Green]

I’m no LEO so this may be a dumb question. Since the person who attempted to steal your friend’s gun was in the possession of a weapon, would that be considered attempted armed robbery?

[charlie sherrill]

No on the armed robbery but still a felony in most states.

[Alpo]

Depending on the value of the missing gun (so as to whether it is petite theft or grand theft), in Florida it might be "possession of a firearm during the commission of a felony", which is a minimum 10 years, under our "10-20-life" law.

[ogilvyspecial]

Would a gun being under somebody's coat, in that setting, i.e. range, constitute possession?

I know specific circumstances would apply so my question is a general one.

[Alk8944]

As Charlie said, no robbery since the property was not taken by use of force or fear. Theft of a firearm is a felony in most jurisdictions. And Alpo is correct in that in most jurisdictions the possession of a firearm during commission of a felony results in a significant enhancement. In many jurisdictions, forgetting the theft being a firearm, the posession of a firearm during the commission of any other criminal act elevates that act to a felony.

[bitstream]

Thanks for the notice; I guess we can all be more careful when shooting to keep an eye on our stuff.

Perhaps they wanted a gun that they weren't linked to via records...

[Sebago Son]

How "young" were these guys? Were there any other signs of trouble with them? Appearance, demeanor, behaviors?

Sounds like someone needs a good asskicking...

[mwtdvm]

I was shooting on the 100 yd range and I had my "box" opened on my PU truck. I had three bipods, short med and long.

A bunch of H Boy Scouts were there at the time, shooting 22 RF.

After they left, I noticed the med bipod was missing.
I hope who ever took it had a guilty conscience later but I doubt it.

[chud333]

I'm with Drew, Someone needed a good *** whuppin'.....
They would've had to do some good explaining to me had it been my
gun. Hope the cameras caught them in the act. I have no use for a thief.


chuck

[oldman45]

I agree with every post in this thread.

That said, I would be remiss in my life if I did not say this as well.

Not everyone on this earth is honest. That includes gun owners and shooters. Just as you would not leave a gun unattended out in the open at your home, you should be even more vigilant at a public gun range. I am at a range 1-2 times a week. I do not know each person there. I will not leave any of my guns unattended or out of my sight. The guns I am using will be on the table in front of my lane. Those I am not using will be in a locked box under the table. If I leave the lane for a moment, I put all guns in that locked box and it goes with me. Lots of things that go missing at gun ranges.

[brucev]

Originally Posted by Black_Sheep

Some friends and I went shooting for about an hour today. When we were packing up to leave, Benny asked if I picked up his Model 64 by mistake. I checked my bag and it wasn't in there so we checked the table behind the firing line where our range bags sat while we were shooting. Benny found his gun under some coats about 8' from where our gear was. There was a group of 4 young guys sharing the lane yet none of them knew how the gun ended up under their coats.

Benny was positive that the gun was in his range bag so we're 99.99% certain that one of the group was attempting to steal it. It takes a lot of nerve to do something like that while the owner is 10' away with a gun in his hand...

Glad that your friend found his revolver. I realize I am not clear about the location of tables, etc. I've been to ranges where coats and other such extra stuff was piled on a table by the window, etc. How the revolver migrated to that table you describe is a real question. Hopefully any security video will show what happened.

[Malysh]

Sorry for your bad experience at the range!

We had a very bad event happen here in central PA. a few summers ago.
A young father and husband, former Army and an attorney was shooting at a state public range near Carlisle. He had a suppressed AR-10 type rifle. A guy shot him twice when he went to check his target and killed him. The guy took his rifle, too.
The felon was unfortunately a former Marine gunny who must have gone around the bend. He is 64 and was a guard at White Hill State prison, which is in the area. He claimed he took the gun to help arm a militia.
This was the worst shooting range event I've ever heard of.

Semper Fi,
Mike

[Steve in Vermont]

A good rule of thumb is to use a range bag. If you're not using a gun, or whatever, it's in the bag. That way all you need do is keep an eye on the bag. And keep it out where you can watch it. This is especially true if you don't know others at the range personally. Would you set your wallet down on a counter in a public store and take your eyes off it? Remember we talked about situational awareness in another post.

[Sebago Son]

Originally Posted by Malysh

A guy shot him twice when he went to check his target and killed him. The guy took his rifle, too.

That's how Platt & Matix got alot of their ordinance.... and look how that ended up.

I always am armed when I'm on the range. But then again, where I shoot, it's rare that anyone else is going to be there too so if I have company, I'm on high alert....

Drew

[fat tom]

Glad your friend didn't lose his gun. It's a bad experience to have a gun stolen. I had one stolen from me in my home last year. I'm 99% sure I know who stole it,but didn't see him do it so I'm SOL. I'm a little surprised that I haven't gotten over it yet,but I ain't!
f.t.

[jimmyj]

Originally Posted by Alpo

Depending on the value of the missing gun (so as to whether it is petite theft or grand theft), in Florida it might be "possession of a firearm during the commission of a felony", which is a minimum 10 years, under our "10-20-life" law.

In Florida theft of a firearm, regardless of value, is a felony.

[Alpo]

Originally Posted by jimmyj

In Florida theft of a firearm, regardless of value, is a felony.

Wasn't aware of that. Figgered it would be a "petite theft - misdemeanor, grand theft - felony" thing.

[Malysh]

I've always assumed the theft of a firearm is a felony in ANY state.
The dollar value has nothing to do with the legal concept when it comes to firearms.

[LOBO]

Glad your buddy got his gun back. Keep your head on a swivel, and always keep your gear in sight. Just because you're honest, don't assume the next guy is too.

[HalfStack]

I guess the guns are like children, should be seen and not heard.

[J Rich]

Somebody should be beaten with a brick stick.

[oberon]

Not hijackin' the thread.
A pair of friends went the extra to nail some thieves who had been operating in one of the downtown parking garages. They left some desirable equipment in plain view on the front seat and parked in the adjoining space in a minivan and waited. Within minutes, dirtbags were on hand getting in to the 'bait' car, and were grabbed, thrashed(read:beaten), threatened with punishment worse than death, and released. Those particular boys never came back.
There is no substitute for a righteous beating.

[rustysixgun]

Originally Posted by oberon

Not hijackin' the thread.
A pair of friends went the extra to nail some thieves who had been operating in one of the downtown parking garages. They left some desirable equipment in plain view on the front seat and parked in the adjoining space in a minivan and waited. Within minutes, dirtbags were on hand getting in to the 'bait' car, and were grabbed, thrashed(read:beaten), threatened with punishment worse than death, and released. Those particular boys never came back.
There is no substitute for a righteous beating.

Yeah man! Too bad the cops can't dispense justice this way rather than arresting, booking, jailing, and finally turning them loose due to some technicallity.

[HalfStack]

Yea, that's too bad. Back in the Bonnie & Clyde days the feds just drill 'em full of holes with Tommy guns and shotguns. That's how you stop the criminals.

[blujax01]

Let's get 'em, boys!

Whar's my rope!!!

Woo-hoo!!!


... sheesh ...

[DCWilson]

When I go to the indoor range that is the only place near enough for me to shoot regularly, I always leave my range bag at my feet under the shelf on the aisle to which I am assigned. One gun at a time comes out, I shoot it, and it goes back in the bag when the next one comes out. I am always surprised that other shooters leave their bags open on the bench while they work with a single handgun. I have no reason to expect criminal activity there, but that's the whole point of caution -- to deal with a problem you don't expect.

[Alpo]

Down at the range, one day, with my daughter. Got, oh, 8 or 9 pistols with us, all in their own little hard cases. Fetched 'em all in in a big duffel bag. The range has got two or three of them big, 8-foot long folding tables like they used to have in school lunchrooms. My stuff is all piled on one of 'em - guns, boxes, ammo, markers, targets, etc.

We finish up and leave. When I get home, light is blinking on my answering machine. It's Mark, down at the range. "Uuhh, Ron, Chris said his gun is missing, and you were the only other one on the range."

What?? If I WAS gonna steal a gun, it dang sure wouldn't be no Charles Daly copy of a 1911. But, when I unload the duffel bag, there's a black plastic hard case marked "Charles Daly". Apparently it was on the same table, and my daughter thought it was one of mine.

I called back and said that if he was in desperate need of it tonight, I'd fetch it back, but otherwise I'd bring it in tomorrow. Chris said that'd be fine. Long as he knew where it was.

Oops.

[OK Hog Shooter]

Originally Posted by DCWilson

...that's the whole point of caution -- to deal with a problem you don't expect.

Herein lies the truth we all need to take away from this. I just love it when an unexpected bit of wisdom surfaces on one of these threads.

[Black_Sheep]

Originally Posted by brucev

Glad that your friend found his revolver. I realize I am not clear about the location of tables, etc. I've been to ranges where coats and other such extra stuff was piled on a table by the window, etc. How the revolver migrated to that table you describe is a real question. Hopefully any security video will show what happened.

Just to clarify things, the table is about 5' behind the firing line and runs the length of the range (14 lanes). Benny was shooting his 9mm and .380 so he left the Model 64 in a zippered gun rug in his range bag on the table. Looking downrange we had the 3 lanes on the extreme left end, the "youths" were 5 or 6 lanes away from us near the extreme right end.

Due to experience, I generally don't trust strangers any farther than I can throw them. Benny learned a valuable lesson yesterday, I'm just glad he didn't lose his gun in the process...

[oldman45]

Originally Posted by Malysh

I've always assumed the theft of a firearm is a felony in ANY state.
The dollar value has nothing to do with the legal concept when it comes to firearms.

You may be right, if it is proven to be a theft. Like shoplifting, you have to leave the store with the item. A firearm under a person's coat does not mean the owner of the coat was trying to steal the gun or even put it there.

A lot of stolen guns are recovered. Few of those that stole the guns are charged with the theft. Most of the time, the person in possession of the stolen gun "bought it off a guy on the street." Few will admit to stealing a firearm.

[oldman45]

Originally Posted by oberon

Not hijackin' the thread.
A pair of friends went the extra to nail some thieves who had been operating in one of the downtown parking garages. They left some desirable equipment in plain view on the front seat and parked in the adjoining space in a minivan and waited. Within minutes, dirtbags were on hand getting in to the 'bait' car, and were grabbed, thrashed(read:beaten), threatened with punishment worse than death, and released. Those particular boys never came back.
There is no substitute for a righteous beating.

That is vigilante justice and while it sounds good in theory and works some times, it is also a crime, possibly a felony. Should one of those beaten have lost an eye, suffered a brain injury or even die, your friends would have been arrested, sued and much more. Had any of those beaten chosen to go to the police, your friends would have faced serious jail time and just suppose one of those guys were armed. He would have been legally within the law to shoot any or all of your friends. The law protects people from intentional bodily harm, especially when the perp lays in wait for their intended victim.

[opaul]

The gym I go to, has electonic non-assigned lockers. I put a carabinger on the handle of a free locker so I can remember which one is mine. I've had two carabingers stolen. I suspect what a thief wants they are going to take, no matter the value. Go figure.

[williamlayton]

I will bet you a $ to a do-nut hole that is how they got the guns they were shooting.
Blessings

[DeadAye]

Originally Posted by opaul

The gym I go to, has electonic non-assigned lockers. I put a carabinger on the handle of a free locker so I can remember which one is mine. I've had two carabingers stolen. I suspect what a thief wants they are going to take, no matter the value. Go figure.

I HATE any thief.
Take a latex type glove and some Never-Seez with you next trip to the gym. Coat the carabinger with a bit of the N-S and you will KNOW who the thief is
IF no one steals your carabinger DO NOT forget to use your glove when removing it. That stuff is a real bear to get off!

[jkc]

Funny this post comes up, after just this last weekend, while I was packing up my stuff at the local public range, I was tapped on the shoulder by a friend who's the owner of a local gunshop, who'd been assigned to an adjacent bench. He surprised me by asking about range rules, and told me he'd never used the range before. Among the various rules I explained to him is, that while a "cease fire" is in effect, no one is permitted to even touch anything on the shooting benches, not just guns, but anything. And, shooters are required to remain behind a painted line, at some distance from the benches. Moreover, during cease-fire, while shooters are downrange checking and setting targets and such, it is forbidden to handle even cased firearms, such as to take them off the line and out to your vehicle.

This rule is enforced under the hawkeyed supervision of numerous armed Range Officers, who brook no violations and do not suffer fools gladly. Firearms left on the benches are required to be displayed with actions locked open and empty. Apart from the obviously salutary safety benefits of this protocol, it has the ancillary benefit of discouraging pilfering stuff from the shooting benches while you're downrange and not able to attend to your stuff. This is not the case behind the safety line, and guns or gear left there would be subject to the chicanery described in the OP.

I'm informed by my friend and Past President of the range-operating organization that theft of shooters' gear has been
almost unheard of during the range's decades of operation. Nonetheless, I am always in Condition Yellow, when it comes to leaving guns and other valuable stuff unattended at ranges, and prefer to have a companion paying attention when I'm not...

[bitstream]

Originally Posted by jkc

Funny this post comes up, after just this last weekend, while I was packing up my stuff at the local public range, I was tapped on the shoulder by a friend who's the owner of a local gunshop, who'd been assigned to an adjacent bench. He surprised me by asking about range rules, and told me he'd never used the range before. Among the various rules I explained to him is, that while a "cease fire" is in effect, no one is permitted to even touch anything on the shooting benches, not just guns, but anything. And, shooters are required to remain behind a painted line, at some distance from the benches. Moreover, during cease-fire, while shooters are downrange checking and setting targets and such, it is forbidden to handle even cased firearms, such as to take them off the line and out to your vehicle.

This rule is enforced under the hawkeyed supervision of numerous armed Range Officers, who brook no violations and do not suffer fools gladly. Firearms left on the benches are required to be displayed with actions locked open and empty. Apart from the obviously salutary safety benefits of this protocol, it has the ancillary benefit of discouraging pilfering stuff from the shooting benches while you're downrange and not able to attend to your stuff. This is not the case behind the safety line, and guns or gear left there would be subject to the chicanery described in the OP.

I'm informed by my friend and Past President of the range-operating organization that theft of shooters' gear has been
almost unheard of during the range's decades of operation. Nonetheless, I am always in Condition Yellow, when it comes to leaving guns and other valuable stuff unattended at ranges, and prefer to have a companion paying attention when I'm not...

Where do you shoot at? I'm relatively new to Mesa and am looking for a good range.

What I love about Arizona: My work has a pistol team and I've already been invited to join.

[LVSteve]

Originally Posted by jkc

Firearms left on the benches are required to be displayed with actions locked open and empty.

You might find this odd, but that rule enforced for all firearms is why I quit the private range I used to frequent. I shoot a lot of rifles that have blind magazines. If an immediate cease fire is called I'm up the creek. The only way to empty the gun is to rack live rounds through the action, which I refuse to do on, guess what, safety grounds. I got the silent treatment from the club hierarchy when I mentioned this issue.

Ask any milsurp shooter who uses an 03A3 and I'll bet you half of them have had grief from range officers because they have not performed a Mauser style mag dump when a cease fire is called.

[Sebago Son]

Originally Posted by oberon
Not hijackin' the thread.
A pair of friends went the extra to nail some thieves who had been operating in one of the downtown parking garages. They left some desirable equipment in plain view on the front seat and parked in the adjoining space in a minivan and waited. Within minutes, dirtbags were on hand getting in to the 'bait' car, and were grabbed, thrashed(read:beaten), threatened with punishment worse than death, and released. Those particular boys never came back.
There is no substitute for a righteous beating.

Originally Posted by oldman45

That is vigilante justice and while it sounds good in theory and works some times, it is also a crime, possibly a felony. Should one of those beaten have lost an eye, suffered a brain injury or even die, your friends would have been arrested, sued and much more. Had any of those beaten chosen to go to the police, your friends would have faced serious jail time and just suppose one of those guys were armed. He would have been legally within the law to shoot any or all of your friends. The law protects people from intentional bodily harm, especially when the perp lays in wait for their intended victim.

INTENDED VICTIM? Man that's backwards. These are thieves. Caught in the act. Sometimes the public just needs to step up. Especially when the Cops can't be bothered to do so...

[oldman45]

Originally Posted by Sebago Son

INTENDED VICTIM? Man that's backwards. These are thieves. Caught in the act. Sometimes the public just needs to step up. Especially when the Cops can't be bothered to do so...

Maybe they are thieves. Maybe they deserve punishment. But when individuals take the law into their own hands, then they become victims. There is a right way and a wrong way to handle things. A person cannot take the law in their own hands.

I worked a case many yrs ago. There was a person stealing some things off a car in the parking lot of a bar. He was caught and a half drunk insurance executive took a swing at the thief knocking him to the ground. The thief's skull was split open on the parking lot and he died very shortly afterward. The insurance exec was charged with manslaughter and got seven yrs as well as losing his job and family. None of which would have happened if the man had been detained and waited for the police.

Now for my personal experience. I was out with my pastor one night on church visitation. We witnessed several young thugs with baseball bats run a middle age man off into a ditch with their car. They jumped out and proceeded to beat the windows in on the man's car The preacher called the police while I was armed and had my credentials and went toward the group to stop the thugs. Just as I had my sidearm out, a state trooper pulled up. I went on to see if he might need assistance. Within seconds it was learned the middle age man attempted to harm a young child in a mobile home park and ran over another trying to get away. The thugs were innocent residents of the park that chased the man down while alerting police as to their location. Things are not always as they seem on first blush.

Becoming a law breaker to gain satisfaction is not worth it. Let the law handle it.

[DeadAye]

Originally Posted by oldman45

Let the law handle it.

And therein lies the problem.
*The Law* ain't handling it!

Even if these goofs get caught they'll be back out and back at it shortly.
How a judge can remain in the *he'll turn his life around soon, so I'll give him probation* frame of mind for very long is beyond me

The liberals have made the rights of the criminals more important than the rights of the victims -- This practice MUST STOP.

[oldman45]

Originally Posted by DeadAye

And therein lies the problem.
*The Law* ain't handling it!

Even if these goofs get caught they'll be back out and back at it shortly.
How a judge can remain in the *he'll turn his life around soon, so I'll give him probation* frame of mind for very long is beyond me

The liberals have made the rights of the criminals more important than the rights of the victims -- This practice MUST STOP.

But how does one do it legally? If WE become criminals ourselves, then we are no better than those we are critical of.

[thndrchiken]

Originally Posted by oldman45

But how does one do it legally? If WE become criminals ourselves, then we are no better than those we are critical of.

Well, It has already been decided by the Supreme Court that there is no expectation of protection from law enforcement.

[Sebago Son]

Sounds more like someone trying to retain their power yet do the absolute minimum to get by.

Respect for the Law demands Justice.

BTW, Cops are NOT The Law. They are merely those whom we have entrusted to inforce the law. If you can't get it done then don't expect that we will continue to pay your salaries, benefits and pensions. We'll get someone else to do the job or do it ourselves.... "We The People..." remember?