Black Panther...are they real? See Post #1

[1morethan8]

Admin Edit-
The topic is large cats.
Felines.
The topic will not be the Black Panther Party, nor members thereof.
If you don't believe that, be the next to post about it.
____________________________________________________


I'm 63 and have hunted all over the eastern part of Tennessee and have never seen a large black cat.
So, over the years, every time a story is told about seeing one I've always had my doubts... "Must have been a black dog, or something else?".
The other week I made a visit to Benton Shooters Supply to check over the Smiths to see about trade-ins and new. While there my wife spotted a cougar that was mounted on top of a large case and had to show it to me. I asked the guy behind the counter if he had ever seen a black one around here?
"Yeah, saw two together on Kimsey Mountain last year. One was large and the other might have been her young."

Well, I don't have to guess anymore or wonder if they are real.

About six weeks ago, I was coming home from work. I work the second shift and return home just before midnight. The lights on the Rubicon was on high as I drove over the slight rise just before you get to my driveway. When the lights settled back to the pavement, I saw what I thought was a large black dog sitting in the middle of the road. It was a large black cat! I was about 35 feet from it when it jumped the ditch on the side of the road. It looked to be around 3 1/2 foot long with a tail about 3 foot. All I could say was "Day'm!"

I thought later that it was kind'a funny. All the years that I've been in the mountains of Tennessee, North Carolina , and Georgia... and to finally see one in the road next to my yard!

Are they real? Without question... it wasn't a large black dog!!

Best at ya!
Wayne

[chud333]

I'd suggest nothing lighter than .357 mag
Here Kitty Kitty....

Chuck

[jkc]

No, they're not, at least if you're asking about the North American large cat once known as felis concolor, mountain lion, painter, panther,cougar, catamount, or as the famous Smothers Brothers bit memorialized them, vicious pumas, in crevasses..., or, as an American Handgunner magazine cover blurb once called them, "Coogers".

Melanism, the opposite, as it may be, of albinism, occurs in some feline species, notably in African and Asian leopards, and also in the Central American species felis onca, the jaguar, or, en espanol, el tigre.

But, our familiar North American mountain lion is not known to have any examples of melanism, and is typically tawny in color. Tricks of light and so forth may cause mountain lions to sometimes appear very dark, but no known specimens actually have genuinely black fur, so far as my considerable references concur.

[bamacisa]

They may not be real, but I saw a big black cat in the Texas hill country. We were camping and something came into our camp one night, I guess it was looking for food( we had left some food out and had were in our tents asleep) Early the next morning, I saw big black cat going up the side of a mountain by our camp site. The food that we had left out was messed up and something had eaten some of it. I don't know what it was, but it looked like a black mountain lion. It sure got my attention.

[patvin]

It is just like Bigfoot, you don't believe in it , until you see one youself !
R.

[MK]

I saw a large black jaguar up in Oklahoma back in 2007.
About the same deal as you.. I was coming back from the store
in Eufaula, and was about 1 mile from my property. I turned a corner
on the county road, and it was standing out in the middle of the road.
At first, I thought it was a Great Dane, or some other kind of large dog.
But as I got closer, I looked at it, and thought dang... that's the
weirdest looking dog I've ever seen.. Then I figured out that is was no
dog, but a large cat. It was in the daytime, and I got a real good look
at it. It was a large black Jaguar, no doubt about it. I checked pictures
on the web when I got back, and they were a spitting image to what I
saw.
It wasn't until I started looking into it, and asking around, that I found
out that these were not supposed to exist in North America.
Many told me I was crazy, and that I saw an overgrown house cat.
Right... House cats don't get to Great Dane size.. This thing was
150-200 pounds. And had a very blocky, squarish looking snout.
That was one thing that really stuck out.
When I got close, it leaped to the brush off the side of the road in
one jump, and ran off into the woods like something you would see
in Africa.
It could have been a lost pet. But... Many others claim to see these
up there, and also in other parts of the country. So I actually think
there is a breeding population of them in remote areas.
It's dense forest where I saw the one in OK.
Many claim that these black jaguars only exist in Central America,
but in researching these, I ran into writings where the Indians of
100-200 years ago were quite well aware of these black cats.
So they were native to this country years ago. The Indians considered
them as the most dangerous cat they ran across.
So I'm tending to think there have been a small population of them
all along, and due to federal laws, etc, may be making a comeback of
sorts. I'm sure not the only one that claims to see them in OK..
They have very large ranges, and the one I saw could have been
many miles away a year later. And due to the large ranges, it's
possible that some have come up through Mexico, and on up onto
the Southwest US.
No matter what the nay sayers say, I know what I saw, and it was a
large black jaguar. And jaguars are the only ones that are commonly
melanistic. "black pigment"
There are also jaguarundi that are dark, but they are smaller.
Due to the large size of the one I saw, I'm sure it was a jaguar, and
not a jaguarundi. They look a bit different also, and don't have the
same large blocky snout like a jaguar.

[StatesRightist]

There you go guys, don't believe your eyes, believe the "experts/books."

NC Wildlife released 1200 of mountain lions over a few years in the late 90's in the mountains of NC. You've got a better chance of getting the latest military info, than getting them to admit it though. This was part of the same program that has established the Red Wolf and Elk populations in NC.

We have a pair of them in our area and in the spring, during mating season, the newbie's/half backs are freaked. If you have never heard a mountain lion's mating call, it's memorable to say the least.

[Edmo]

Originally Posted by patvin

It is just like Bigfoot, you don't believe in it , until you see one youself !
R.

Bigfoot has one for a pet...

Edmo

[tork'd]

whoa... where are the pictures??

[glowe]

I have learned to never say never from collecting S&Ws over the years and have the same thoughts when it comes to black mountain lions.

The "experts" are guessing as is everyone else. Since it is possible that this cat can exhibit melanism, never say never.

I took the DNR Wildlife Experts over 10 years before they actually confirmed cougars in Michigan. Dozens of sightings and a few pictures failed to convince the "experts" for years that this cat existed here.

[35Rem]

Most likely a jaguarundi.

Out west, there have been reports of jaguars, so that wouldn't surprise me. In the east, though, it's gonna be a jaguarundi.
Bobcat sized critters with the loooong swooping tail like a panther

[jlrhiner]

There's one laying on my bed right now.

[geoff40]

A number of years back here in New Hampshire, myself and 3 of my friends witnessed 2 mountain lions in broad daylight along a logging road, miles from the nearest building. This caused me to suddenly become very interested in big cats, because even to this day the State's official position is that any cats that might be getting seen are all "escaped exotic pets"; this even though nobody ever met anyone who had a pet mountain lion. Unless you knew Michael Jackson of course.
Anyway during my own little private sleuthing, I was allowed to read the entire file of sighting reports the State keeps-interesting fodder for an entity that says they aren't here. I discovered that roughly 30% of the sightings involved black panthers. Now even more curious, I was able to get the same information out of Maine soon after, lo and behold, the same, rough 30% of Maine's file was about black panthers.
So over the years, I've kept an open mind. As has been stated, supposedly there are no known examples of black, melanistic cougars in the USA, however there apparently is a strain in South America. I've never seen one of those, so I can't confirm this.
It's hard for me to believe that so many people could be so wrong. and then, there is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOHFT9RUW3I

I don't believe a deer would stare and focus at a house cat the way this buck is looking.

[1morethan8]

I posted on another gun board(TN) about seeing the cat and got about the same reaction. Then one of the guys sent me a PM because he didn't want to say anything on the board. He said him and his brother had seen one early in the morning within the city limits of Chattanooga!
I could understand if only a few had been seen in a short period of time. But with the many sittings over a span of 50 years in many different locations made me wonder.
Many that have been seen are a brown or tawny color and all were much larger than a bobcat. All the black ones were large and solid black, like the one I saw.

When I talk to people from the southern Cumberland Mountains, or southern Appalachian Mountains, one thing seems to be a common thread. It's no big deal to them...
"Saw one about two years ago, haven't seen one in awhile...".
"Saw two during the blizzard of '93, pretty animal, must have had a hard time finding food?"...
Yeah, if that Rubicon had of been going faster... the biologist would need to add another chapter to their books!

[bgrafsr]

I went down to Florida, along with two of my three brothers to visit the fourth one. He took us out to a large ranch and as we were driving around the place, we saw a black panther run into some brush. Only got a quick glance at it before he disappeared.

[redneckemt]

Ask a possum cop bout big cats. Seen the tracks. And I swear I saw a small one on night sitting on a rock. Size of a bobcat but long tail. They are in Tenn.

[badge]

Many moons ago Jaguars were native to the SW US as well as Mexico. They do, as an earlier posted stated get too much of whatever DNA colors them so to speak and they are black. Here in Pa. we have been getting Cougar sightings for many years but Fish and Game will never admit it is possible. Me, no but I did see a Florida Panther in 1998 out in far western Palm Beach County, just west of Loxahatchee and it was beautifull.

[Doug M.]

I'd guess that the large black feline reported in Texas was a Jaguar. They are rare there, but possible, and if the gene is in the pool, it will sooner or later be able to be expressed, even if rarely. The wild cats are shy and elusive, so seeing one is unusual.
Escaped (or more likely abandoned) house pets: probably more common than most would expect. It is my understanding that even hand raised, the large cats are too dangerous and cranky, so they end up "disposed of".

[Texas Star]

I won't say there cannot be melanistic cougars, but have never seen any valid reference to them. They range from sort of reddish-brick brown to pale tawny, the terrain and subspecies being the factors.

Cougars range from Canada to Argentina, and have some minor variations, and DNA can often determine origin. I ran across a case of a Costa Rican cat in the USA. Probably an escaped pet. The body was typed by DNA.

But black leopards/panthers do get loose from pet owners. I worked for a security company that had a rural post at a ranch where a somewhat barmy lady kept a black panther, Panthera pardus, NOT a cougar! I never worked there, but other guards told me about it, and they were afraid of it. It'd get out and patrol the grounds.

I decided to load full .357 ammo in my M-66-3 if I worked there, but would do that regardless, considering the remote area.

Jaguars are chunkier than leopards and weigh as much as twice what a leopard does. Siemel killed big jaguars in the Matto Grosso region of Brazil to 400 pounds, some with his famous spear! Some are melanistic, and I once wrote part of a fan fiction that I wanted to call, "Spirit Jaguar" about one that was feared by Amazonian Indians as an evil spirit after it turned man-eater. I have definitely seen black jaguars in zoos.

If you see a melanistic jag or leopard in bright sunlight, you can usually make out the spots under the blackness of the fur. They are born in the same litters as regular spotted examples.

The jaguaurundi is smaller and has a differently shaped head and shorter legs. They also have a reddish-brown and a gray phase. I think these, ocelots, and jaguars all live in southern Texas and probably in the huge wilderness known as The Big Thicket. Many are probably transients, coming back and forth from Mexico.

Cougars/pumas definitely live here, and there have been a number of recorded attacks on humans, the most recent this Spring in a national park in West Texas. The victim's father saved the small boy by stabbing the cat with his Spyderco lockblade knife. In news photos, the blade looked to be about three-inches long, and probably did not inflict a lethal wound. The cougar escaped, and the lodge didn't want to warn guests, lest they lose business! I thought that was pretty disgusting.

Anyway, there are certainly some large black cats loose in North America. Whether they are reproducing, I can't say. But if they are, you'll probably also see normal spotted examples from some litters.

[crazykg85]

Here is west central Ohio we have had some similar sightings like this. Although recently a drug "kingpin" admitted he had had 2 black cats he purchased illegally (obviously). He let them into the "wild" after they killed and ate his dogs. So, yeah- we have had some farm animals get torn up around here recently.

[gamedic]

I have seen probably a dozen black panthers in my life. All of them within two miles of my home. I could have killed one at point blank range back in 1992, but I was too surprised by the close encounter to react. It was 10-15 feet from me and under good light for longer than a fleeting glance. They are definitly for real.

[dswancutt]

Originally Posted by glowe

I have learned to never say never from collecting S&Ws over the years and have the same thoughts when it comes to black mountain lions.

The "experts" are guessing as is everyone else. Since it is possible that this cat can exhibit melanism, never say never.

I took the DNR Wildlife Experts over 10 years before they actually confirmed cougars in Michigan. Dozens of sightings and a few pictures failed to convince the "experts" for years that this cat existed here.

What is it with state fish & wildlife departments that they deny the sightings of mountain lions by people. Nebraska pulled this stunt until just a few years ago when they were forced to admit, yes, mountain lions are in the state. Several have been forced to be killed when they show up in towns while schools are in session.

[snowman]

Originally Posted by Edmo

Not the friendliest looking creature I've seen.

Andy

[rimfired]

PA Game Commission says we don't have any Mt Lions here in PA, despite all the history, sightings and evidence to the contrary.

[teesur]

Originally Posted by Edmo

Bigfoot has one for a pet...

Edmo

That's the most beautiful non-existant creature I've ever seen!
teesur.

[JohnnyTactical305]

Yes they do exist, plenty of reports of large black cats across America. Some suggest maybe Panthera atrox (American Lion), supposedly extinct. Look up Loren Coleman and his research on cryptid black felines.

[1morethan8]

I don't know what the true name is.. I have no idea how long they've been here? People I've really know well have told me about the times they've been seen. And most were sighted in the mountains or near them. I had two different people who live on Signal Mountain(northwest of Chattanooga) tell me that they saw large brown or tan colored cats, but no solid black ones. Neither knew the other and lived several miles apart. One said his neighbor had been finding small calves that were killed and half eaten, and lost a dog about the same time. The neighbor shot the cat one morning and buried it for fear of being fined for it. The week before he said the cat walked passed his barn, and before he could get his camera, the cat was in the road in front of his house which he said was 75-90 yards from his house. He did take one picture of the cat crossing the road and looking back his way. The picture isn't clear...

This is the picture he sent me taken from his front porch...



I enlarged the picture to see the cat better... and this is the results. not a very clear picture...



I've asked most of the ones who said they've seen the large cats... would you shoot one if you had a gun?
Most said they wouldn't... or didn't.

[Muley Gil]

Last year, my wife saw a large black cat, NOT a house cat, climbing one of our hills. I showed her the picture in post #8 and she jumped and said, "That's it!"

She is also a former police officer and needless to say, I believe what she saw. I saw a tawny mountain lion in Bland County, Virginia, in 1999 and saw another one in Frederick County, Virginia, back in 1994.

[indiandave]

Originally Posted by rimfired

PA Game Commission says we don't have any Mt Lions here in PA, despite all the history, sightings and evidence to the contrary.

The Pike County Dispatch had an article last year titled "They're here but not officiallty" They talked about all the sightings of cougers. An assistant director of the DWGNRA was one of the people who saw one in the article.

I have a friend who swears she saw one. I have no reason to doubt her.

[chicagoslim]

The only place that I've seen a panther, is my own back yard.

Here in Florida there are so many escaped circus and carnival animals, that I wouldn't doubt anything.

One time the police pulled a car over for doing 70 mph in a 45 mph zone. The car was being driven by a chimpanzee, that was taught to drive a little electric car, in a circus. It car-jacked someones car, and went for a joy ride.

[Tam 3]

Saw a dark grey one near Inglis, FL in 1992-3. 10AM on a cloud free Saturday. Moved from a brush pile in a powerline cut about two thirds of the width of the cut through grass no more than 8-10 inches high. Watched it for the time it took to make the crossing, never losing sight. It had an almost serpetine movement, unlike a bobcat's bouncy, rabbit-like run. In poor light its coat would have appeared black. I thought that it was about 4.5 to 5 feet from nose to rump and a tail 3-4 feet. I've been assured by wildlife officials that the foregoing could not possibly have occurred.

Regards,

Tam 3

[yaktamer]

Originally Posted by snowman

Not the friendliest looking creature I've seen.

Andy

Aw, c'mon. It just needs a hug.

[forresth]

Originally Posted by glowe

I took the DNR Wildlife Experts over 10 years before they actually confirmed cougars in Michigan. Dozens of sightings and a few pictures failed to convince the "experts" for years that this cat existed here.

The DNR has been lying to the public about the non-existence of mountain lions in MI for much longer than 10 years. Deny deny deny has been the official stance of the DNR for at least 20 years (from family experience), and now that there is photographic proof they exist, its "a lone individual and no breeding population"

One other source for big black cats would be private "zoo" escapees.

[DeathGrip]

If I recall there was a breeding program here in Fl. were they introduced a non Fl. cat to the DNA so as to make them less inbreed. This kind of stuff can bring out hidden genes just as inbreeding can.

I've heard many tales of black ones but never saw one. I've been here most of my life and only saw two and they were together. That was about 30 years ago. I'll probably never see one again especially around here.

[jkc]

Some of these replies made me question my assertion that there are no known examples of "black" mountain lions, or puma concolor as they're now called, on the basis of recent genetic distinctions from felids. The concolor appellation remains telling --- it means "one color".

Just to double-check myself, I consulted the fairly recently published compilation of mountain lion management, habitat, conservation, and similar discussions, in the book Cougars, edited by Maurice Hornocker and Sharon Negri. I particularly consulted Table 2.1, in Chapter Two, written by Harley Shaw, wildlife biologist who studied Arizona mountain lions, now retired from the Arizona Department of Game & Fish, and with whom I had a relationship in his professional capacity. Now, while I wouldn't necessarily consult Harley for financial advice, I'm confident that what he has to say about mountain lions, you can take to the bank.

What he has to say in this table of "cougar characteristics", under the trait of "adult pelage" (hair or fur, if the term is unfamiliar...) is this:

"Grizzled gray or dark brown to shades of buff, cinnamon, tawny, cinnamon-rufous, or ferruginous. ..."

No mention of black, or any color variation darker than dark brown, or "ferruginous", akin to rusty red.

So, these amateur observations, anecdotes, mythological sightings, folklore, etc., alleging "black" specimens of puma concolor, fly in the face of widely studied, recorded, observed, exchanged, critiqued, and peer-reviewed non-observations by highly trained professionals with everything to gain by the discovery of a previously unknown anomaly, and everything to lose by recording or reporting fallacious information.

So, one hopes, science prevails, folklore fails, knowledge triumphs, ignorance, again, strikes out... But, fat chance --- see the following posts....

[Alpo]

Logic says that since a dog can cross with a wolf, and a dog can cross with a coyote, and a Siamese can cross with a Manx, that a Jaguar can cross-breed with a cougar. If canines can cross-breed, and little felines can cross-breed, why can't big felines cross-breed?

And, unless they were all sterile, like horse-donkey crossbreeds, why couldn't the resulting Jougar carry the "black gene"?


http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-pumaxleop.htm

[Onomea]

Who was it who said, "Who ya gonna believe? Me or your lyin' eyes?!"

[mjr]

Originally Posted by StatesRightist

NC Wildlife released 1200 of mountain lions over a few years in the late 90's

Where'd they get 1200 mountain lions in the first place?

[Andy Griffith]

Originally Posted by redneckemt

Ask a possum cop bout big cats.

Is that anything like a Squirrel Sheriff?

I've seen one on two occasions, both on the backside of the Bald...and heard the scream which scared the life out of me! This was no bobcat!

Another name for a black jaguar....

Tactical Cat!!!!

[Straightshooter2]

Originally Posted by DeathGrip

If I recall there was a breeding program here in Fl. were they introduced a non Fl. cat to the DNA so as to make them less inbreed. This kind of stuff can bring out hidden genes just as inbreeding can.

I've heard many tales of black ones but never saw one. I've been here most of my life and only saw two and they were together. That was about 30 years ago. I'll probably never see one again especially around here.

In 1973, after they finished I-10 west of Live Oak, my wife and I were driving from Jacksonville to Tallahassee for a friends wedding. That strip of Interstate had only been open a very short time and as we were driving along, a very large tawny cat came over the fence from our right, cleared our side of the road into the median then cleared the eastbound side of the road and went over the fence back into the woods on that side of the road. Having been raised in Georgia, I had never heard of a Florida Panther and didn't until a number of years later. DeathGrip, you and I have seen something not a lot of people have. However, in all the sightings I've heard and read about in North Florida, never heard of a black one. I won't say they don't exist, just never heard of one.

CW

[6mmman]

I saw a tan one near Crawford, Ga. back in 1987. Now I know it was a zoo escapee of someones pet out for an evening walk but it did not have a collar of leash on it and it was stalking two deer I had just sighted. Strange feeling walking back to the truck in the dark that night!

[DeathGrip]

Straightshooter2,

I've only heard of the black ones by the same story tellers that have seen the Skunk Ape also.

They say there's a population of Panthers in the Big Cypress still but trusted friends that live next to the Seminole Reservation have never seen one of any color and they have lived there for several generations. Bobcats are common and I even saw a small bear on my friends place but Fl. Panthers are a elusive and a rare treat to see. Where I live in West Broward it's been built out to the edge of the 'Glades yet a year or two ago someone spotted a Black Bear in Weston. (Weston is the furthest city west.)
I was surprised a couple of years ago to see a couple of deer walking down the side of the canal on the south side of Weston.

Black Fl. Panthers? I'd have to see a dead one and have the DNA checked before I'd draw a conclusion. There's to many nut cases here and anything is possible.

[Porterb123]

My father owned about 120acres of property in Kentwood, LA, where we used to hunt. There were thousands of acres of paper company land adjoining the back of his place. Dad had a friend that saw a black large cat while sitting in a deer blind one morning. He had it in his scope but was afraid to shoot it. Not sure I believed him at the time.
Later I heard a scream at night that scared the begeezus out of me! A year or so later( 1985) I was walking a lumber road with about 100 acres of clear cut with his German Shepherd with me. Tree top piles were scattered around. I heard something and turned around. The dog was standing at full alert with the hair on his back standing up. In the middle of the road was a large black cat. Maybe 100 yards out. It looked to be about 6 ft long, nose to tail. The dog took off after it but it was gone over the brush pile in a second. Man he was fast! Walked back to the spot and looked at the prints in the dust. They were very clearly feline and about the size of my palm!
I cannot say wether it was a Jaguar or a cougar. Only, I saw it.

[UrsisHoribilis]

If the game and fish people admit the cougars exist they would have to manage them, an almost impossible task given their range. I have seen two from my car within 20 miles of my home here in SouthEast Arkansas, near the Ouachita River bottom.

[627 city hunter]

The cougar is definitely present in S.E. Arkansas adjoining with the LA and MS border. Trail cams of my hunting buddies have shown them.

[therevjay]

I can't say for sure. But I don't see why thre couldn't be. No matter what "Experts" say. Only fools think they know everything.

[bluegrassarms]

Saw a black cat when I was much younger. Now I was young so maybe I misjudged, but I spent a lot of time stomping around the fields and this thing was up on a fallen log along a fence row. About the time my friend and I got close enough to debate what it was it took off into the tall grass.

Like I said I may be wrong, but it looked like a very sleek black cat, way too big for a feral domestic cat, and cool as a cucumber. Cats have very distinctive movements, different from any other kind of animal. You can tell a domestic cat from another animal like a possum in near total darkness by the way they move.

I know too many people I believe who have seen big cats in this part of the country to think they cannot possibly exist. We could all be wrong but if one shows up one day happily camping out in a city park complete with TV coverage I won't be horribly surprised.

[MK]

Originally Posted by jkc

Some of these replies made me question my assertion that there are no known examples of "black" mountain lions, or puma concolor as they're now called, on the basis of recent genetic distinctions from felids. The concolor appellation remains telling --- it means "one color".

I generally agree about the cougars. Anything is possible, but I've never
seen any indication that there are black cougars.
Ditto for the mountain lions.
Only the jaguars are known to show this with any regularity.
Of course, in my case, I was almost positive what I saw was a jaguar.
There have been mountain lions seen in the same general area that I
saw the jaguar, but they are not black by any stretch of the imagination.
I know one guy in AZ that sees a lot of cats on his trail cams.
They even come right up to the front of his house to drink from the
bird baths, etc.. But they are all the tan variety. Big too...

[LVSteve]

Originally Posted by yaktamer

Aw, c'mon. It just needs a hug.

...and kitty treats.

[LVSteve]

I cannot decide what drives the wildlife divisions of some states to say the things they do. Is it that they are required to maintain an air of "knowing all" to placate the public or is it the basic human conceit of thinking they "know all" and events to the contrary are not welcome.

If these creatures can survive in the UK then having a few around in the US is almost a given. They are also breeding in England, and shown by a short piece of video released by a lady a few years ago. She only let out a short piece to avoid identifying the location and took a mighty amount of flak for it from the hard-hat and yellow jacket brigade in England.

All I can say about seeing weird stuff is that I started a minor hobby in photographing dragonflies and damselflies soon after I came to the US. In a remarkably short space of time I was credited as the first observer or several species in certain NV counties and even got the first state records for some others. The idea that the stupid humans on this rock know everything that goes on in the natural world is laughable.