Interesting from the perspective of how many rounds the LEOs fired, as well as to the weapon the perp was carrying. Otherwise, another tragedy at the hands of someone who should not have been walking the streets as a free man.

Cops shoot suspect after he kills sleeping 13-year-old sister, wounds mom in Harlem shootout - NYPOST.com

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I'm with the banned ...

Well, how many times did they HIT the guy?

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"... shall not be infringed."

The article says he had 14 bullet wounds (!), but obviously none were fatal. I didn't realize NYPD were allowed to carry three hi-cap mags. Luckily those officers weren't seriously hurt.

BTW: That Saturday Night Special is unbelievably primitive ...

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I'm with the banned ...

Yep, you're right it does say 14 bullet wounds. I missed it.

So, they hit 14/84 times for 17% at 23 yards (they said 70 feet). That probably isn't bad for that range and under stress.

Fourteen hits and I presume that NYPD uses 9mm...

Let the caliber wars comments begin!

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"... shall not be infringed."

Any of you ever been shot at.....just asking.

Dick

Dick makes a very valid point. Those LEOs were under duress ... I'm not commenting on the # of rounds fired as a function of the officers' ability/inability to hit a target, but rather the # of rounds as an aggregate total in a street shoot out. Unfortunately, this stat will no doubt be brought up and hammered relentlessly by some some civil rights legal eagle trying to portray the LEOs in a negative light. I grew up in NYC and remember numerous cases like this. In every one, NYPD was run through the ringer.

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I'm with the banned ...

84 rounds fired at the perp, approximately 70 feet away, the perp fired one round that hit the radio car, from a piece of **** saturday night special. Yeah, I agree, that's pretty interesting. Lot's of questions for the NYPD Firearms & Tactics Section. I'm wondering if the two officers involved were plainclothes/detectives, since they were "by coincidence" investigating another crime from an adjoining precinct? If so, likely carrying smaller sidearms than the uniform service weapons.

It is impossible to make any tactical judgement based on the NY Post account. It's pretty vague on the fact pattern of the actual shootout and typically sensational considering their emphasis of the number of rounds fired by the cops without reporting the explanation for that. How predictable from an anti gun rag like the NY Post. They haven't exactly shared a glowing reputation as a police friendly publication, in my experience. Could be many reasons why so many rounds were fired, so I won't even speculate on that issue.

My congratulations to both officers involved. I'll gladly replace their ammunition and throw in a spare third magazine at my expense in case the next one is 80 feet or more. You guys really, really need a patrol rifle in every (RMP) car.

Every news clip I see of NYC has cops and military walking around in BDU's (we used to call them fatigues) with sub guns at the airports and on the subway's.....guess the patrol division guy's in Harlem don't rate. I'm grateful the officers got the job done without injury to themselves or to other innocents. GOOD ON THEM! I won't even bother to remark on the perp, he was a waste of otherwise good ammunition.

Cheers;
Lefty

Here's a photo of a NYC Detective back when a Winchester 1894 rode in at least one radio car in every precinct and probably not more than that. I was told by my elders, the Winchesters '94's first introduced into use by the NYPD during prohibition, were usually neglected, in poor repair and the ammunition (by the late 1930's into WWII because of the war shortage of ammo) was usually corroded and un-useable, they provided their own. They all had unauthorized "trunk guns" and that little known secret practice continued through the subsequent decades, despite official policy to the contrary...or so I was told.

Detective Wolf, photo courtesy of a S&W Forum member and retired N.J. State Trooper.

IIRC, they sold for around $10 back in the day.

I have one like new in the box. It is crude, but it works, and goes bang when the trigger is pulled.

Lefty ... That's a great photo. Pre or post WW II? The car (what little is visible) looks early '40s.

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I'm with the banned ...

you also have to take into account that the NYPD carries the Glock 17. and while the stock model is highly accurate you have to think they have the NYPD 9lb trigger. which severely hampers accuracy.

i've fired one of these and its like taking a SA/DA revolver and shooting it repetitively DA only.

not to mention i dont want to know what this guy is on to take 14 hollow points and still be able to hold his weapon.

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6906,6904,g23,g21,RIA1911,40c

Hey, I said I it wasn't bad for that range and under stress.

They do need to have a rifle around as flatfoot recommends.

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"... shall not be infringed."

Great photos! God bless ALL the old flat foots.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

Sounds like a job for a 12 gauge.

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Term limits!

I don't know what the situation was here but one of the things they teach you now is to fire while running for cover. You can do that now because you have more ammo vs. the six rounds and a slow reload you used to have. The two times I attracted some lead were before the transition to the highcap stuff. In the first situation the perp got off a poorly aimed .22 before being put down by my partner. Appparently partner's draw was a microsecond faster than mine. He fired one incredible shot from a S&W model 38 sending a reverse wadcutter through the perp's heart at over 25 yards. The model 38 was later sold to me for $50.00. I still have it. It's not for sale.

The second involved a late night armed robbery. I correctly guessed the escape route and when I hit him with a spotlight I was rewarded with what sounded like bumblebees flying in my direction. Even though his shots were wild I could still hear an occassional .22 shot hitting my patrol car (three hits on the car) as I emptied my model 19 out the window in the perp's direction. By the time I could crawl out the passenger door with my Ithaca riot gun he was gone. We found out who he was a few days later and a few days after that he was killed by a "business associate" in Chicago.

Even though there are lots of armchair type people who want to second guess the actions of the police, mostly to boost their own agenda, this is one of those things where you don't start throwing blame and accusations around until all the facts are in. It is my opinion the pucker factor is something that is scientifically impossible to calculate. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt.

Yes to the question, and in my opinion, everything worked out fine. They carried enough ammo.

(and no, I don't like 9mm, but that's a personal choice)

Thank the good Lord we're not talking about more injured police officers.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

agreed! we can all hit paper targets at 25 yards all day long with pretty decent grouping.

but having a massive adrenaline dump, firing at a moving live target at 25 yards........isnt a picknick. i think these officers did just fine in the circumstances.

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6906,6904,g23,g21,RIA1911,40c

I'm guessing the photo depicting Det. Wolf with the car and rifle is early 1940's...maybe during WWII, probably. The other photo of Det. Wolf would suggest that it was taken perhaps at his home or with some family celebration upon his promotion to Detective 3rd. I'm not sure about the commendation he is wearing above the shield. It resembles the "Excellent Police Service" he may have been awarded previously as a Patrolman, but typically in those days, a Patrolman was promoted into the Bureau (NYPD Detective Bureau....now referred to as the Detective Division for many years since then) for valor or some other outstanding service. It could be the Combat Cross or Medal of Honor. I never researched him so I don't really know . He appears younger than in the waterfront pier photo, at least to my old eyes and the shield, probably not a dupe (duplicate) appears to be of the old turn of the century early 1900's style. I've run across some of these variants. He's also not wearing the collar device of a detective yet which tells me he's newly promoted. But again my guess from the latter photo with the Winchester is that it was taken in Brooklyn and he was likely assigned to a Brooklyn South precinct.

Anyway, they had the right idea having a carbine handy, and cops who were smart enough not to trust them for ammunition or maintenance.

Cheers;
Lefty

On another note. Did you notice the plain clothes officer in the above picture was wearing what appeared to be some kink of gun belt under his coat? Wouldn't you like to know what was under that coat? I would.

As was discussed, especially in a fire fight situation like this, some rounds are fired as "strategy" and some are fired as a specific "tactic." That is why the "strategy" in military parlance is to gain, and then maintain, fire superiority. If one side loses the ability to fire, or return fire, then the other side will eventually over run them. This is the aim in fire and movement in a squad or platoon sized element. In this kind of exorcise, fire disipline is at least as important as fire accuracy, in my view. This is the proper use of high capacity, high volume fire, not to compensate for poor accuracy. If both elements in a situation like this are relatively equal in their ability to employ this tactic/strategy, someone will ultimately have to expose himself "at the wrong time" in order to get the job done, and neutralize the opposing element. That's where the aforementioned "pucker factor" comes in. It ain't like the movies.

Charlie;

Well, call it good luck, call it great marksmanship, call it what you like...I call it exactly what guys like me, (the list of experienced and well known combat police veterans is endless, I'm not listing names) have to say about the performance of 2 inch small frame revolvers like the Model 38 Bodyguard in a gunfight. I'm sure some readers will doubt that account, I certainly do not. I've seen repeatedly over the years how effective a snub revolver can be in the hands of a cool headed, steady and competent shooter. When you only had 5 rounds and maybe a reload, you made sure you were on top of your game or else. Maybe your partner was lucky, I don't know, but if he was, I know an awful bunch of other cops who were coincidentally, just as lucky as he was.

Cheers;
Lefty

A S&W M&P 1905 4th. Hand Ejector .38 Special, 4 inch barrel, as per the forum member who provided this photo and bought the revolver with all the provenance from the family. I made him a reproduction of the holster Det. Wolf was probably wearing under his suit jacket. But from the tilt of the belt and the way he's shown holding the rifle, my guess is he was probably 'A LEFTY".....HA!

Cheers;
Lefty

agreed as well. i saw a video of bob munden *cant find it to post* but he took a snubby .38 and popped a target that was far enough away you cant see it until you hear the clink in the video haha

edit: here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk

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6906,6904,g23,g21,RIA1911,40c

My guess is that they remained at the car for cover considering where this took place while waiting for back up. I doubt they left their position while waiting for the cavalry to arrive. This was only 2 guys, not a squad. Just my speculation. Seems like the perp was "holed up" and wasn't running and they were keeping him in the box.

Cheers;
Lefty

17% hit ratio? That,people,is deplorable.I'm not typing that because I'm some armchair commando who hates cops.An Air Force Security Policeman was able to end a shoutout with a crazed guy packing a MAK-90 using a military issue Beretta loaded with 115 grain FMJ ammo.The bad guy died when shot #3 hit him in the base of the neck.Range was a confirmed 70 yards as meaured by the military.

Another incident similar to this took place in LA recently,on tape.A carjacker pulled into a populated gas station and drew his piece in the car.LAPD -all 6 odd responding patrol officers-fired 60 rounds total,hitting the guy in the head with zero civil casualties.If stress of the situation really resulted in degraded performance,we'd see a 17% hit ratio at every LEO involved shootout.We don't.

I shudder to think of the consequences if this man had something more substantial than a Rhom .22lr.NYPD needs to change their training standards ASAP.Blaming the 'NY1' trigger is bunk ;plenty of officers make good use of double action revolvers and and semi-autos.I hope someone deep in the guts of the NYPD changes the training regimen for the better *yesterday*,before they run into their version of Laurel Canyon and end up facing down determined bad guys with long arms and body armor.

Lefty,
Thanks for the photo.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

12 lb....I'm not NYPD but I have friends who are...need 2 people to pull that trigger back....worse on Glocks than on the Sig 226 I tried...NYC have(had) choice of, please correct me if I'm wrong...DA 226, Glock 19 and S&W 5946..off duty a K9 was allowed but not anymore...a friend felt, not certain, was because of the NYPD armorer fooling with an already heavy trigger, the gun had failure issues and was taken off the list as no good...I'm sure it worked fine out the box, factory.

I think that great picture was taken in Manhattan on the West Side with the Gansvoort St. Incinerator in the background. Just my guess.

Well, it sounds like another ringing endorsement for the 9mm.

We had a shootout a couple of years back where some drunk who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory and booze decided to play Quickdraw McGraw against a half dozen sheriffs and state troopers with a Smith & Wesson 686. He was pulled over and when he got out he came out firing, one sheriff was hit in the vest in the chest and went down but was not seriously hurt, another took a .357 that actually detonated his pepper spray canister, and he took shrapnel wounds under the corner of his vest. Well the bad guy got his wish and took more than a dozen hits from both .223 and .45 ACP including one to the chest and a .45 to the noggin. I have read the autopsy and the guy was basically turned into something close to swiss cheese. I have no idea how many rounds were actually fired but there was alot, at least fifty and probably alot more.

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Vaya con Dios

The only ratio that matters in a gunfight is the ratio of shot-up bad guys to shot-up cops and good guys. In this case the ratio was 1-0, so it goes in the books as a big W.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

there are lots of factors in these seemingly poor performance NY shoot outs.
infinite obstacles for the perps to play with. and that NY trigger specification of a 1.5 foot pull length at ... whats it up to now 47 pounds? or must it be equal to or greater than the recoil spring?
the cops themselves would be a fairly easy fix .. triple the qualification ranges and give em guns that CAN do it.

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it just needs more voltage

Let's just thank the Lord that neither officer was hit and that there were no civilian casualties.

On the other hand, I'm sure someone in the mayor's office is working on a solution to the problem regarding number of rounds fired. Probably limit magazines to 10 rounds and allow the officers to carry only one mag (except for the mayor's bodyguards of course).

CW

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μολὼν λαβέ

Holey moley! 84 shots, 22 hits?

Maybe they need to carry special zombie loads..

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

22 was the caliber coming at them. it was an 84/14 hit ratio.

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it just needs more voltage

IIRC: In that era it was a fairly common practice for plainclothes officers to wear a second belt holding their weapon, holster and extra ammo.

Took a dozen hits .... how many did THEY fire? 250 rounds?
And here (below) is an endorsement of what 9mm can do if the person behind it can do their part.....
oh but the trigger on the Beretta is not 12 lbs....

Yeah...those NY cops should carry 223s instead....that way they could have sprayed the hood with 223 rounds instead of their measly nines...

NOooooooooooooooo....they had NOTHING to do with the misses...it was all that Nasty GLOCKS fault.... did you miss the post some ways back about the cop killing the perp with one round from a snub 38?
These guys could not shoot plain and simple.

This guy could I guess...

A hero

That is the referenced shooting from above. And wow.... he didn't fire 84 rounds????

And wow...he didn't even wait for back up... or HAVE cover. He just could shoot. There's a novel idea. Train a cop to shoot. I think Massad Ayoob recommends that too. He actually had a write up of this Air Policeman's shooting also.

Actually, here it is:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n56222398/

4 for 4 hits under duress. AT seventy yards. Being fired on. By more than a .22. If that matters. Guess he was lucky huh? Ya know...with the underpowered NINE and all. HE TRAINED. These guys may try it.

Oh...first shot by Air Policeman was double action.......AND a hit. In fact, he had NO misses. AT 70 Yards...

Yeah....musta been that GLOCK.

Over the years there has been a lot of criticism of marksmanship by the NYPD. Back in the late '70s or early '80s, there was an article in "Guns" or "American Handgunner" on the subject. A consultant brought in after a bunch of bystander shootings, etc., declared that NYPD cops he'd interviewed seemed not to know what the front sight was for.

From what I've seen recently, the NYPD has far more issues with judgment than accuracy. They seem to paint themselves into corners that they then feel the need to shoot themselves out of. The Dorismond and bachelor party shootings are only two examples.

Suppressive Fire.

or

Spray and Pray.

I wasn't there. We can guess and speculate all day.

I'm happy I wasn't there.

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Dum vivo cano

Neither was anyone else here. Lucky them.

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Sure you did

800 rounds fired with 4 hits on the badguy. most rounds were stopped by the deputy's stolen durango or were used to stop the durango as he tried to get away. when youre being shot at by a bad guy and you have a lot and i mean a lot of nervous rookies beside you firing without aiming...you get this.
dont have a pic of the durango but you can imagine.....
Alabama Cops Shooting - YouTube

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I'm only allowed 30 characters

When I read this in the news this morning, I wonder if they thought they were shooting one of those monsters from a "slasher" movie. One of the officers ran completely dry, wonder what his thought was about then?

It seems I was incorrect on several details in my original post.

Here's the video and story behind the LAPD shooting I referenced above. 11 officers, with 60 shots fired between them at an armed carjacker. Suspect was hit and died at the scene, which was a gas station with customers present. I do not doubt that stress influences shooting ability, but training -or lack thereof-plays a major role in the outcome also.

11 officers fired guns in Koreatown shooting death, sources say - latimes.com

The NYPD cop carries the Glock 19 on patrol with the horrible NY2 trigger job.

If the article is accurate, the range was about 70 feet...a little over 23 yards.

How many agencies still include 25 yard shooting in their qualification qualification courses? For example, LAPD, which is known for a focus on marksmanship, does not include a 25 yard line phase in the qual course.

How many agencies train officers at ranges beyond 25 yards with the handgun?

Incidents like these are graphic reminders that not all police gunfights are at 7 yards or less, and why training at longer ranges is still important for law enforcement.

The incident is also a good argument for the patrol rifle. No matter how proficient you are with an handgun, a rifle is preferable in a situation such as this, both for increased hit potential and terminal ballistics.

That said, I have nothing but praise for the officers who engaged this suspect under difficult circumstances and won.

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Trust, but verify - R. Reagan

Here is an article involving another NYPD shooting incident with MOS and a retired MOS backing them up.

10- 30 pharmacy E.119 st and 1st ave. shots exchanged with mos, ret Lt. and perps. in THEE RANT Forum