Yesterday I met with my CPA and the subject came up that he was an FBI agent during the 1970's. Are any of you familiar with what type of S&W revolvers were used by the FBI during the '70's? Were they allowed to purchase their handgun when they left the FBI?

Thanks,

Paul Moore

Hi Paul,

I had this information previously bookmarked. I hope it is what you need.

Colt Pocket Positive - Handguns of the FBI - Shooting Photo Galleries


Ash

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Ash

Depending on WHEN in the 1970s, the issue revolver would have been a model 13 with 3" barrel in .357 Mag. The load back then was 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollow point +P .38 special.
There were a few model 59s modified specifically for them, and HRT used Browning HiPower pistols in 9mm.
They made the change to the 1076 in the 80s, and the 1911 they now have is made by Springfield Armory.
Before the 70s, there were many changes to their allowed guns for 40 years. The Colt Police Positive, for example, was one of their earliest choices, as was the M&P .38. The pre-27 has a long and storied history with the Bureau, as well.

samandglove1 and squidsix, thanks for the info.

Paul

I believe that the timeline is wrong on some of the above posts and some are confusing the Colt Official Police with the Police Positive Special.

I think the M-13 entered service about 1980-1983. The S&W 9mm's were authorized for SWAT and at least one was used in the 1986 Miami shootout. The Hostage Rescue Team has used Hi-Powers, later .45's modified about like many enthusiasts use in IPSC matches. They resemble the Army's Delta Force guns in that regard. I think the current batch are from Springfield. They sell that gun to the public and their PR rep can direct you to it in the catalog.

The Official Police was pretty standard from 1934- 1950's, when S&W Model 10 joined the arsenal in large numbers. THe Model 27 and its prior forms were also used by some, and personal guns could be many .38 or .357 S&W's with steel frames and in either blue or stainless. Snubs were generally carried only as backup or off-duty pieces.

A special run of M-10's with 2.5-inch barrels preceded the Model 13, which could be used with Winchester 145 grain .357 Silvertip ammo, with the approval of the asst. SAC for that field office.

I am unaware that any Colt Police Positive Special guns were ever issued or carried, although some may have been. Detective Specials were auhorized, I think.

Where's SIG-P-220? He can probably add to this info. He was grandfathered in with his SIG .45 and still carries it, although current issue is the .40 Glock. NO revolvers can now be carried.

One of the slickest revolver actions that I've ever felt was on a pre-27 in the gun vault at the Dallas field office in the 1960's, which I visited on a high school field trip. That gun had a five-inch barrel, a sound choice. An agent who spoke to my class on Career Day had a M-49 Bodyguard. I guess he didn't want to bother with anything bigger on what he probably saw as a light duty day.

Shotguns have included the Winchester M-12 and the Remington M-870, sometimes in hghly modified forms for "tactical" looks. I believe that both Winchester M-1907 .351 and Remington M-81 Woodsmaster rifles were usual in the early days, the M-16 having replaced them. I presume that snipers have some variant of the Remington M-700 in .308.

THe Thompson SMG was once heavily used, but has probably been replaced by the H-K 10mm SMG. I think they may be set up for semi-auto only firing.

When I was 12, my dad took us to FBI HQ in Washngton and I watched an agent fire several weapons on the basement range. The Tommygun was very impressive.

In your earlier post in another part of the board, you were vague about your friend's holster. Does Buchheimer Federal Man seem right? Your post suggested that.

If I may politely suggest it, I think you should lay off trying to buy his gun. If he wants to sell, he'll recall your offer. That weapon probably means a lot to him, and it's about like trying to buy one of his children. Pressuring him to sell may negatively impact your relationship. I hope this advice will be seen as trying to help. I'm not trying to insult you. But many who have not been in law enforcement do not understand the affection that many agents have for their sidearms.

In the 1970s, the issue was most likely a four inch Model 10. I came in in 1991, and the old guys then had plain-jane Model 10s. These were replaced in the 80s with the now-iconic three inch Model 13s.

Most agents of that era carried something from the extensive personally owned weapons (POW) list. In 1991, any steel framed Smith and Wesson .38 Special or .357 Magnum with a 2 to 4 inch barrel was approved. The K-frames were popular, with the 2 1/12 inch Model 19 and 66 being the most popular. I saw Model 15s, too, and the L frames had a loyal following. By then, almost all of the steel framed 9mms and .45s were authorized, too.

I was a Smith man even then, but I couldn't find a 4516 anywhere. My Dad had an FFL at the time, and he ordered me a Sig P220. (All Sig 9mms and .45s were on the list, too).

Almost everyone had a J-frame, too, known in my part of the Bureau as a "five-shot".

A few of the real dinosaurs in the office had Colts - one guy had a Trooper and one had a Python. These were grandfathered in at the time.

I became a Firearms Instructor after about five years, and helped with the transition from the revolvers to semi-autos amongst the guys who were still carrying revolvers.

Once everyone was qualified on a semi-auto, the purging of revolvers began. In 2001 the edict came out that no revolvers were authorized for carry at all.

Until the first Clinton administration, retiring agents were allowed to purchase their Model 10s for a nominal price ($120, I think) under a special provision authorized by Congress. That provision was yanked, and the wailing that resulted was long, loud, and fruitless. Guys that had carried their trusty Model 10 for twenty years under the impression they would be able to take it into retirement suddenly had to turn it in to the gun vault for eventual destruction.

Once, a few years ago, I asked for some Simunitions guns for a hostage negotiation exercise. Quantico sent me a pelican case full of four inch Model 10s, complete with diamond mangas, fitted with Simunition cylinders and painted completely orange. That's where some of them went, at least.

I also saw some desk sets made up as gifts for visiting dignitaries. They had the vertical foregrips from our old Thompsons mounted on them, with a Model 10 or 13 cylinder expoxied on for a pencil holder!

As Texas Star noted, my old Sig is grandfathered in. Good thing I went with it back then, because NO Smiths made the cut for grandfathering.

Added:

I just read the OP's other post about the gun in question being a Model 60. I would be very very surprised if that was an issued gun, and before paying any long green for it I would give Mr. Jinks a call with the serial number for verification. As I said above, that is almost certainly a gun he either bought from a retailer and had added to his POW list, or bought from another agent, possibly under the impression it was an issued gun. Never say never, but Model 60s weren't standard issue to agents. There is a tiny chance it was issued as an undercover gun or for some other special purpose and he retained it somehow, but I doubt it. Its been so long he's probably not sure, either.

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Thanks for all the great info, Sigp220.45. If he decides to sell it, we're talking about $375. Even if he's confused and it wasn't an issue gun, it's a gun that's in excellent condition, and I'd like to have it.

The current owner of the Model 60 is a truthful person. He wasn't with the FBI very long, and, as you said, it was a very long time ago. He told me the little M60 had done nothing but lay on his night stand for years. Something else funny...he laughed and told me didn't shoot very well with it.

FBI issue or not, It's a nice looking Model 60 and maybe someday it will come my way.

Thanks again for the great info.

Paul Moore

My brother was an FBI agent from maybe 1966 all through the 1970s, 1980s and most of the 1990s. He just carried a junk old M10 when I saw it. He didn't like guns and only carried it when he went to work. Never any other time. In about 1970 he gave me a box of 38 wadcutters. I have no idea why, probably tried to give them to dad and dad told him I needed them a lot more than he did.

Brother even got a book written about one of his cases. "On the Laser's edge". Espionage or something like that. Dry reading. And he wrote one about rail lines, "The White Pine Line". Maybe I need t read them again.

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Dick Burg

When I entered LE in 1962 the FBI standard issue was a Colt Official Police .38spl, blued w. 4" barrel or a S&W Model 10 .38spl, blued w/ 4" barrel.

Local agents here carried a mix,all S&W revolvers,some Chief Specials,one I knew carried a 2 inch nickeled Mod.10,some 4 inch 10's.

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