For those who may be interested, I had a PM on another board from a fan fiction writer whose husband is a retired RAF fighter pilot. Flew Tornados in both Iraq wars.

He was very confident of being able to destroy any Iraqi fighter, but they'd never close for combat. Too afraid of Allied planes. The Tornado was devastating in its ground attack role. This man loved the plane.

Anyway, I asked if it was true that the RAF had taken away Browning 9mm's to issue PPK's, as I'd seen posted on a gun board. He replied that in his experience, he never saw a Walther PPK in service. They (aircrew) always had the Brownings. I think it's a better item for a pilot who's been shot down and has to defend himself.

He's still in touch with his old squadron and they just got Glock 17's, which will soon be standard UK military issue for most pistol needs, replacing the Brownings.

For those who keep up with such, this may be of interest. It'll be interesting to see how the Glock works out in this role. Of course, Austria, Norway, and probably other countries already issue Glocks. British police already have them, too, so they should have enough of a track record to know how they'll fare.

I was mildly surprised to find that pilots are getting G-17's instead of the more compact G-19, but I guess they want just one model for all troops.

Certainly would be nice for those Browning to wind up over here as surplus.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

I thought that too, but sadly, it's unlikely. It's more likely that they'll end up melted down for manhole covers.

Because you know lawful collectors are a big source of "crime guns".

I hope the Glocks serve them HALF as well as the P35s have.

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Even older, even crankier....

The guys who created Webley must be turning over in their graves to think of Glocks being issued to RAF pilots.

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Gunner, Sabot Up!

The UK govt. messed over Webley as far back as the 1920's, using their designs to create their own Enfeld revolver No. 2. Webley must have felt smug satisfaction when they had to order hundreds of thousands of the MK IV .38's for WW II, Enfield not being able to make revolvers fast enough to meet the urgent need. Alas, those guns usually had the crude War Finish and were so marked.

Members of this board surely know that vast quantities of M&P .38's were also sent to them.

After WW II, Webley created an experimental 9mm auto, much like the P-38. It was not adopted, as so many Brownings were on hand, and more were ordered over the years. I think they'd phased out the wartime .38's by the early 1960's.

Webley employees got burned out on govt. orders long before the new pistol was a gleam in Gaston Glock's mind. Webley hasn't made handguns since about 1974. I think the UK govt. intended to drive domestic makers out of business since the 1920's and showed them no support.

Since the UK economy is going down the tubes, I would
hope that an American distributor can talk the Brits into
selling instead smelting.
TACC1

I think you are giving far too much credit to the UK government for having a clear thought on the subject. The UK was broke after WWI and VERY broke after WWII. When it came to where to spend what little money was about, new handguns would have been near the bottom of the list.

From what I hear, NYPD mostly uses G-19s for that reason.

The G-19 isn't that small of a gun, so it's more than adequate as a general issue service pistol.

Does, UK, European Counties, and NYPD know that Smith and Wesson is still in business ?

When I was in Bagram, the UK pilots had G-19's, and Sig 226's.

Probably, but like the US usually prefers to buy American, there is quite a "buy European" movement when it comes to military equipment.

I think a S&W DA-only model is on the list of NYPD approved guns.

NYPD approved the Glock 19 rather than the M-17 because it carries less ammo, and they wanted a magazine limit.

LVSteve, I think you're right about budgets, but Enfield Arsenal usurped the rights to make even MK VI .455's rather than keep buying them from Webley. They just outright copied the gun, and only the markings distinguish Enfield from Webley production. I've owned examples of each.

It was also at the time of the nasty 1920 gun law that I think British officers were banned from carrying their own sidearms on duty. They had to accept official issue items. Then, Enfield adopted their own .38 and I think part of the intent was to make official guns at arsenals and phase out private buys. I believe the fear was of uprisings of the common people, based on what happened in Russia in 1917. They claimed it was for crime control, but you know how much water that argument holds...

I do realize that police sales of Webley guns continued.

To be sure, budgets were also a consideration.

Not attempting to hijack this post. It is very interesting.

But, a few many years ago I had a conversation with a former Marine fighter pilot. I "supposed" to him that maybe a .22 LR semi-auto might be a better handgun than a large caliber as it would afford the ability to carry a lot more ammo. Its rounds could be used to kill small game and would possibly be more "quiet" in various areas. And, if the downed pilot needed a larger capacity weapon he could use his .22 to "access" an enemy's more powerful weapon.

Now understand me, this was an exercise of simple thought and no experience. I have never been shot at or shot down.

He told me about his former instructor pilot who was shot down, into the water near North Vietnam. He used his Browning Hi Power to fend off enemy boats while awaiting rescue.

Seeing the logic I decided larger is better......

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Have guns...will shoot'em.

You know, Francis G. Powers did have a silenced Hi-Std. .22 when his U-2 was shot down over the USSR. But your acct. of the Marine pilot and his Browning is impressive!

I know of one case where I think a US pilot in the Gulf should have used his Beretta to drive off Iraqi villagers until A-10's arrived to cover him. Those and a helo were moments away when he surrendered. But I wasn't there, and I guess he figured the jig was up. Most pilots can't shoot for sour grapes, anyway.