Read "Sixguns" last week and just finished "Hell, I Was There" last night. The boy weren't bashful a 'tall was he?

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War Eagle!!!

He was certainly a man of his times. There are a few forum members who had the opportunity to meet him, and from their accounts he pretty much told it as it was. He was a genuine pioneer, fer sure.....

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Even older, even crankier....

Charlie askins was real modest too.

That's about as diplomatically as you could have put that.

But then he had a lot not to be bashful about.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Something I liked about Elmer was his casual mention of breaking a few laws, here and there.

Hell - Guiding a hunting party into Canada, tucked his pants into his boot tops and slid his SAA down his britches leg. Sixguns - Walking down the street in DC and see the cops chasing a car fulla bad guys, shooting at it with their puny 38s. "I had a heavy loaded 44 under my coat and could have easily stopped the fleeing car" (or words to that effect). Concealed weapon in DC kinda illegal.

Then in Sixguns he mentions shooting an eagle on the wing with his 44, then justifies it (because shooting a bird of prey is terrible). "A good eagle, that would not steal any more lambs".

I really liked the story of him and his little brother beating up the bully. If he's bigger than you, get a club. And the bully spreading the word, after he recovered. "Don't mess with them two boys from Missouri. They'll kill you."

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I always take precautions

My type guy. I heard or read he also was arrested for shooting a elk without a permit.

You can't judge Elmer Keith by the standards of another era. At the time, it may not have been so, but now, "through a glass, darkly," many years later, I have nothing but fond recollections of him and his writings. He led the field during the "golden age" of sixgunning. He was what he was!

I believe ever thing ol Elmer sed. I believe some of it is the truth and some ain't, but I believe every word.

I only know the man through his books and those very few who I have met that knew him. Quite a guy.

I have a pretty good B.S. meter, and something inside me believes every word the man ever wrote. It ain't braggin if you can do it!

Somewhere I seen a drawing he did of a windsheld with a hinged glass door in it you could open and shoot straight ahead at a fleeing car while driveing without haveing to hang out and shoot through a side window.
I would have hated haveing elmer turned loose on me with the go ahead to bring me in!
Years ago I had a old friend also named elmer (smith). Elmer was a odd batchlor that was awarded the silver star in world war two. He kept a cutout bullet hole from a army shirt in a frame on his wall. We used to to shoot, camp and ride motorcycles a lot together. He had I think 3 old BMWs and a old indian chief he still rode that he bought new when he got out of te army. Anyway elmer was a reserve deputy for los angeles county. Once they were chaseing a car theif that ditched the car and took off running. Elmer threw down on him and was going to shoot him but his partner stopped him. Later he was telling me his version of it and he just couldnt get over the PC of it!
Must be something to the name elmer!

he certainly wrote some great books....i just reread "sixguns" recently

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

Yup. Every few years I pull down "Sixguns" and browse through it. If you had to make do with only one book on pistol shooting, you could do a LOT worse.

"Sixguns" is flawed in that it is lmited almost exclusively to US guns. But it and, "The Handgun" by Geoffrey Boothroyd are the two basic gun books to own, especially if you are primarily into handguns.

I knew Keith slightly and he was a colorful character, but I believe all or most of what he wrote.

I saw him shoot at 200 yards one afternoon, in his late 70's. He hit the target.

I do have doubts about that 600 yards shot on the mule deer, but think Elmer really believed that his shot killed it.
The deer had been previously wounded by rifles and may have just collapsed as he shot.

Elmer was bigger than life, and God love him. He is missed.

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the world is round everywhere

Not just his shooting, hunting and guiding skills. I think some of the injuries, well not just the injuries but the cures, were incredulous. His face burned so badly it was welded to his shoulder. His having to "rip it away" from his shoulder so he could hold his head up and straight. His left hand being burned so badly you could see thru it. It was bent back and laid parallel along his forearm from the wrist back. Having his Dad break it so it would be straight. Breaking his shoulder, his ribs, his everything!!! Way. way more of a man than I.

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War Eagle!!!

I have never understood why anybody would doubt that Keith didn't make that 600 yd. shot with a pistol. As far as I know he has never been noted for lying. He was an exceptional shot and Billy Dixon killed an indian at over 1500 yds. with a big 50 Sharps. A 600 yd. shot with a .44 Mag. is no more unreal than 1500 yds. with a big 50 Sharps. When someone shoots all the time the law of average says that some of their shots are going to be fantastic. Just because farmer Brown can't do it or hasn't seen it doesn't mean it can't or hasn't been done. Larry

I am a big Keith fan.

I do not think any thing he wrote was a falsehood. Heck I have shot a 44 Mag to 600 yards...

However here is a true and funny story.

Many years ago, the wife and I were on our way to a black bear hunt in Montana. We went through Salmon Idaho just so I could go to the Museum there. This was the "City Museum", not the later Elmer Keith specific Museums, [I have been to them too].

They had a section dedicated to Elmer, and there was a "little old lady" in there. I asked her if she new Elmer.

She said that she did, and stated that "Yes I knew him, he wore a BIG hat and smoked a BIG cigar, and carried that BIG gun of his, while he strutted around going to the post office to get his mail...

I replied, "Well I guess you did not think much of him".

She gave the indication that, no she did not...

So I "politely" began to tell her of the history of Elmer Keith,and how much he had influenced hunters, hand gun shooters and law Enforcement Officers over the years. I had about a 30 minute conversation with her.

She actually seemed suprised at Elmer's real history...

I do have doubts about that 600 yards shot on the mule deer, but think Elmer really believed that his shot killed it.
The deer had been previously wounded by rifles and may have just collapsed as he shot.[/QUOTE]

I seem to remember he said something to the effect it walked right by a white rock he had been using for 600 yard practice. But it's been a while since I read the book.

On the part about leave the Missouri boys alone, it was a learned reflex. When he left Missouri there is a chance his Dad, uncles and Grandparents remember the States Rights conflict. Missouri boys were known to saddle up and take care of business.

The same applied to the Game Warden story after Elmer burnt up pounds of lead and powder practicing to go call the feller out. Was the old boy doing is job? Did Elmer take umbrage to being told what, when and how much he could take. I knew some old time Missourians who lived pretty far back from roads and civilization. They did not believe game laws applied to them. Yep, knew them real well. Some of them claimed to be relatives. I did not nor would I hunt with them.

One General said go get me some more of those Missouri boys, they fight like Tigers. Little did he know. Heck if you weren't tuff here you had to forego family reunions....

I have the greatest respect for him. He did know how to tell a story, one of my favorite gun writers.

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Even older, even crankier....

I hunted deer in 1990 in Gibbonsvile, ID.Just north of Salmon. The wife & I went into Salmon to get groceries a couple of times & went by Haverman's hardware store had Elmer's trophy heads hung on the wall. I was impressed to say the least.I have most of Elmers books & re read them often, I believe most of his stories. In fact I met his son Ted at the NRA Convention in Reno in 1987. Very tall man.Gave him 20 bucks for Elmers Museum.

As a teenager growing up in the 1970's, I read and followed everything by Keith. He was a big influence in making me a handgun hunter, with the 44 mag being my favorite caliber, of course. When I was 13, it was his influence that caused me to spend my trap line money, and buy a 1909 Argentine Mauser in full military trim, and to sportsterize it, and re-bore it to 35 Whelen. Just like he said, it was, and is, hell on those big Maine whitetails. Still have the rifle, pictured below.

Larry

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He's from the same era my dad and uncles were, they lived a hard life moonshineing, breakeing horses, working on ranches and farms. Anything to make a living. but they had values, they treated people with respect unless they were screwed with, then you were at their mercy. I can attest to that from my young memorys. My dad told me that if you ever feel like some one is screwing with you that there is no reason for only one of you to be mad about it. Back in the 50's I can rember 5 men being shot and 1 tar and feathering, in our little logging town. A much better community than we have today. Back then the dope heads we have on welfare now wouldn't have been a problem, they would have been coyote feed. Wished we still had these values, instead of all the tree hugging queer dopers, that vote for muslim blacks to destroy our country.

I just finished reading "Hell, I was there..." a few hours ago, and am working on "Sixguns." I admit I told my wife that it's a wonder Elmer didn't dislocate his shoulder, patting himself on the back, but I really don't think he thought of it as bragging. He was just telling what happened. And I believe it did.

I'm old enough to remember when Elmer was alive and still writing. He and Jack O'Connor were my favorite gun writers. Now you want to talk about two different characters.

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John 3:16 .

Elmer was once asked, if he could only own 3 hunting guns what would it be?
He said, his .577 double rifle, a 10 or 12 gauge side by side, and a .338 magnum.

Elmer did not have much use for wimp guns!

I guess after all that testing with lesser calibers the lessons really stuck. I was pretty surprised to read in "Hell I was there" that he tried to take an elk (could have been a deer) at one point with a .22. I guess a lot of people wouldn't look on that too kindly, but at least all of the experimenting he did with different calibres he recorded for the benefit of those who follow. He really was in the forefront of the development of the cartridges and rifles and handguns we take for granted today. I think we'd be a lot further behind if it hadn't been for him.

I was raised in a family of 7 in tough times, we lived on deer and elk meat , potatos and other food from our garden, chickens and milk cow. Most of the deer and elk fell to a 22 rifle. It's shot placement, not size that counts.

I 1st read Sixguns when I was 12,and Hell, I was there at 14. Elmer Keith was as much of a childhood hero to me as my Dad. He influenced my love of firearms, (specially big frame Smiths)as much as anything else in my life. I hung on every word, and still believe all of them. I have made shots at targets at 500-600 yards with a model 29, so I have no problem believing the mule deer shot. I regret never meeting him, he was larger than life, and a great man!

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THX , Roy

If there were more men like him around today!! Our world would not have been so screwed up right now.

Guess I was surprised that he thought so little of the standard 30 cals for elk and deer! I'm speaking of 30.06, .308 etc. He also didn't think the .284 cals were very good deer getters either. He did favor his .334 and the .338 for small stuff.

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War Eagle!!!

But he quietly admitted that the 6.5mm Mannlicher-Schonauer put its long bullets in deep and killed well.

In fairness, I think some of his disdain for lighter calibers was due to them not then being loaded with modern premium bullets. Both Waren Page and Jack O'Connor handloaded Nosler Partition bullets and were satisfied. But they were also a lot less likely than Elmer to take raking shots on departing animals, and waited when possible for a good broadside shot.

Keith sometimes really NEEDED the meat and took whatever shot he could get. He lacked the polish of the other two, who had master's degrees and were skilled wordsmiths as well as good shots and talented hunters. Keith often spoke of not wanting to be behind any man, using terminology that I'd better not reproduce here. I think he wanted to prove that he could always get his game, regardless of where he hit it and if he had to follow up a wounded animal.

The episode in which he fired repeated shots from .41 Magnum revolvers into caribou (?) that weren't dropping was disgusting to most normal sportsmen.

I think that if Elmer and Jack had each gone forth to gather an elk for the freezer, one with his fabled .270 and the other with a .334 OKH, both would have been eating elk that winter.

I think Elmer did like the 30-06 for deer.

well said.....

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Cheers, Charles
SWCA #2442

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Keith at an NRA convention in Portland, OR a long time ago, and briefly corresponded with him. He autographed my copy of "Hell, I was there!" so that my wife could give it to me for my birthday back in the 70's. An ego as big as his hat (but well earned) and a bit rough in word and deed, but absolutely honest in his words, was my impression of him.

I also met Col Askins at an NRA convention in Philadelphia, PA. He spent most of his time ignoring me, while patting my wife on her knee and suggesting she should join him on a dove hunt in Mexico. Never cared much for him after that, and she didn't seem much impressed with him either!

I would have been even less impressed if he had spent his time patting YOUR knee and ignoring your wife!!

Fine man and excellent writer. Suspicions of his integrity likely are more reflective of what was lacking in the critics than anything lacking in him. Appreciate his books. HIWT is one that I've often enjoyed. I've used some of the stories as illustrations in sermons.

Keith's life, articles and books reflect an era of remarkable change and to some degree his uneven adaptation to those changes. His style of writing was not particularly artistic, but at the same time it was simplistic but well-informed by technical expertise as well as practical experience, the same as with O'Connor, Sharp, Askins, Skelton, Jordan.

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I have one of his books,"Sixguns", very enjoyable read. I get it out
occasionally and re-read parts of it and look at the pictures. Elmer was
very opinionated but he seemed honest in his writing and wrote from
the heart, what he really believed. His undying praise of big bore
revolvers and heavy hard cast bullets really did change the sport of
handgun hunting in the U S.