As long as you're a good guy I'm ok with your firearm skills, but how many bad guys out there have exceptionally good firearm skills? I'm not talking terrorists or people trained to kill, just common criminals that might wander into rural America with good firearm skills that for one reason or another their moral compass has gone haywire. It seems more to me that people that have good skills aren't the ones doing school shootings or movie theatre shootings or mall shootings. It's like the saying kids who hunt, fish and trap don't rape steal and murder. So, do criminals work at getting good with firearms? Is that who we've got to watch out for? I guess since I found this forum I'm a little intimidated with what I've read. Interested, very interested but at times intimidated. Anybody else been there done that? Well, I had my wife read what I've written to this point on this topic and I asked her if this was pushing it, she said "borderline". If this is pushing it moderators please delete, you won't hurt my feelings. I certainly don't want gun ownership to invite trouble to my life in any way. Guess I haven't given it this much thought until recently. Very thought provoking ya all!

John

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Luke 23:34

History tells us that very few criminals are disciplined with firearms or any of the other martial arts. Ergo the popularity of the short barrelled ILLEGAL shotguns and ILLEGAL SMGs. Also why gangbangers like hi cap handguns. Spray and pray.

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Even older, even crankier....

There have been studies done that conclude the criminal element is much more successful at killing or wounding than authorities. I don't really know what authorities are. I'm going to guess it includes the whole gamut from gun nuts to social "experts" that have no interest. Almost anyone reading here or posting here can be assumed to have a much higher than average interest in firearms. One can guess that interest translates into eventual ability to also shoot. Conversely, no interest in shooting could very well result in someone who doesn't practice or shoot regularly.

Other things we've kind of clashed over here relates to criminals having a much higher percentage of first shot hits as opposed to law enforcement. Its so bad that its sometimes funny. Everyday you read in the news were some "dirtbag" shoots or even kills a victim. And then the stories aren't rare where police shoot 34 times at a person and hit him once or even 3 times. Then they discover he wasn't doing anything wrong. Draw your own conclusions. One very important one is the bad guys get to decide when and where to take their first shot while the police must wait (or usually) until the person does something to deserve it. The bad guy walks up and shoots the robbery victim, the police when they try to arrest him are usually required to give him more of a chance than he gave his victim.

So yes, the bad guys seem to have a much better result as far as hitting their victim. Another item sometimes debated is the punks and thugs go out for a night of robbing or dealing. Then can just shoot at your car or someone down the street whenever they want. Actually shooting in the environment they live in. The police only get to shoot at their range. Huge difference.

So the conclusion that bad guys are good shots is probably wrong. But then we can also conclude the band of wilding cops that shoot 34 times at a guy on his own porch also are lousy shots. I can easily state that I don't want either group shooting at me. I also have maybe too much confidence in my own shooting ability. I'm and old man now. I've only been shooting for a little over a half century. I do it because I enjoy it. Therefore I'm more likely to shoot often. And I have plenty of ammo. I'm going to guess the criminal element has a significantly harder time obtaining ammo. My conclusion, and maybe wrong, is that the more you shoot the better you are at shooting.

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Dick Burg

I'd guess that your average criminal gets the majority of their firearm training from watching TV and movies rather than spending time on the range. If they have stolen the gun then they might only have the rounds that were in it at the time and no idea what to buy to replace them not the cash to do so or the balls to go to a gun store to make the purchase.
I would not go so far as to say that any time spent developing all the various skills you mentioned automatically make you a good guy and unlikely to commit a crime but perhaps having a family where quality time is spent doing that sort of stuff reduces the probability of turning to a life of crime.

It probably isn't very hard to shoot an unarmed 19 yo across the counter at 7-11. Get some movement, heart rate up and open the range not so easy. I think if you are LEO you have to be wondring how will this play out on the news.

I'd be more concerned about bombs and other weapons of mass destruction. You don't need much practice with those.
Man's been killing one another since time began, probably always will.

Most criminals aren't very smart because most smart people don't like the idea of going to jail. (Don't do the crime if you can't do the time, remember that intro tune for Baretta?) I had an uncle who worked for the DEA and he once told me that most of their drug busts happened because the bad guys did something really stupid. Like the time they caught some people transporting heroin and cash in Georgia because they forgot to close the back doors of the truck and $100 bills were flying out the back driving along I-85. Now why couldn't I be one of the people following that truck??

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Minimize the variables

A recent thread in our Concealed Carry & Self Defense forum discussed this, citing and interesting study:

Training V. Experience

I haven't done any studies, but I think I know why thugs are better at killing; they don't care.

You see, reasonable people don't want to hurt or kill. Their first thought is to remove themselves from a confrontation. The thug wants to kill and therefore isn't concerned about pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger.

Then, the main reason people become thugs is laziness. They don't want to work hard, save their pennies and retire some day. They want the lifestyle right now. So, they rob, cheat, steal and kill for it. This personality won't take the time to train or practice. They are successful at killing because they do it from close range or by spraying an insane number of rounds from an automatic at no more than 5 yards.

The OP is right, it's not the ones that spend money to learn how to shoot. It's the lazy ones who won't train that are the problem.

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Freedom isn't free.

I watched a show called "I almost got away with it" and was an older gentleman which was a firearms enthusiast that kidnapped his girlfriend. Cops came after him and i remember this guy taking out cops with one shot, good tactics and great accuracy. That's based on true stories, so I'm sure they're out there.

Training V. Experience

You might get some value out of this thread especially read the linked article

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Retired Career Security Guard

Exactly! No nerves to pull to the left...

Some criminals are proficient with firearms. Most are not. It takes a lot of work and time to become really good with a gun. Most criminals are lazy, ego their life of crime. But certainly there is a small percent of bad guys that are good with guns. I have known a couple over the years.

Particularly the typical gangbanger is a spray and pray shooter. Many if not most of them are capable of shooting hundreds of rounds at each other with only bystanders getting hit.

But there are a few old country boys that grew up hunting and shooting, and took the dark path that can be pretty scary folks. Most such men die young and violent deaths. Many outgrow their bad ways. Still it is a big world out there and lots of men had their skills honed in the military, paramilitary, or in police work before breaking bad.

Not much to do about them but hope you never become in conflict with one of them, and to keep your own skills and awareness at a high level.

Maybe you over estimate some of us. Wasn't it Don Knotts who starred in The Shakiest Gun in the Midwest? That movie was about me!

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Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

More excellent reading in "Training vs Experience", thanks for the link!

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Luke 23:34

What is scarey to me is a grown man with no or very few skills with a gun, especially a man with a family. The idea that this nation is raising folks who are actually frightened by guns as if the gun itself was something evil. Those people scare me a lot more than anyone on this forum.

OMHO, a huge part of a gunfight is the willing intent to kill. A killer has no hesitation to kill, and will not hesitate or think before firing.

A moral person of good character lacks this internal desire to kill, putting them at a disadvantage, hence all of the training for LEO's and the military.

Anyone can shoot paper very well in a short amount of time. Giving someone of good moral character the ability to kill takes training, the killing mindset must be taught, and even then there are rules. Rules for criminal killers do not exist.

A gunfight is more psychological than technical.

The mass shooters are always people with a build up of problems and the people that deal with those people on a daily bases seem to ignore what the problem is.

Common criminals think in the moment and not what the outcome of being caught is. Most armed robberies are quick scores to get drug money.
Some don't value life like you or I would and would kill you like they were swatting a fly. As far as shooting skills go. If you can point your finger, you can aim a gun.

This may be sarcasm, but it's exactly my point and may even be true about reduced flinching.

Then there is holding it sideways. This way if they aim for the head and flinch, they still hit the torso.

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Freedom isn't free.

Aloha,

Just for fun, I asked my club President if I could shoot sideways and upside down.

He gave me the OK and I set up some balloons on the wood target frame.

I had a small audience.

Using a Beretta 96 (40SW) shooting sideways, I Missed all 8 balloons.

Using a Beretta 87 (22 cal semi auto) shooting upside down, I got 4 out of 8

It was an interesting experience.

I would suggest trying different shooting styles SAFELY if you have a chance.

There are alot of us out here that have crazy skills with firearms. The vast majority of us don't hold our "gats" sideways. The truth is, we may be sitting in the booth next to you in a restaurant, or the row behind you at the movies. The reality is, as long as there is evil in this world, there will always be a need to defend ourselves. Our fight is to insure that our right to self defense is not taken away.

SWCA #1834

Rural america is rife with outlaws who are good shots. They all answer to the same name. Poacher.

To the OP, it is more than a moral compass gone wrong. Many of these folks think about and want to cause the demise of another. They do not have a conscience therefore using our moral values to determine their thought processes is an exercise down the wrong path.

Keep your friends close and your enemy closer.
Blessings

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TEXAS, by GOD

Forum members and firearms enthusiasts don't scare me at all. In fact, the vast majority I've met are really nice people with solid values.

The only time they worry me is when I'm at a gun show and they spot a deal on a good gun before I do!

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"I also cook."

Definitely no sarcasm my friend. You made a good point...

Although the ultimate efficacy of thugs' marksmanship is debatable, as is what makes a thug become a thug, I agree with several of the propositions here for why they are sometimes effective gunfighters, chiefly the lack of conscience inhibiting them.

But if I were to wager what the prime reason is, it's very simply that they're usually the instigators of aggression, and the instigator almost always has the advantage.

I was tempted to put the following story in the thread regarding guns in bars but this is the better spot.

In 1971, I was a rookie big city policeman. My district encompassed an area 9 city blocks by 12 city blocks and included 7 bars--on the 4 to 12 shift. On my second day by myself after a 2 week break-in period, I was dispatched to the Parris Inn on a shooting.

I arrived and found a male dead on the floor at the far end of a 13 seat bar rail. The other 12 seats were occupied by folks whom were ignoring the dead guy on the floor as was the bar tender.

As it turned out, the shootee and the shooter were common law husband and wife. The husband had a long history of beating on the wife/shooter. At some point, the shootee hollered down the bar that he was going to walk down to his wife and pound her again. He stood up and she leaned back on her bar stool and center punched him w/ a Rohm (RG32). DRT!

At the arraignment the next morning, the circuit judge (widely recognized to not be a fan of the police) sat on his bench and was shaking his head. He was not concerned about the death as she claimed self-defense.

His comments to me as I remember them: Officer, can you tell me why some 68 year old drunk woman can lean back on a bar stool, in a mostly dark bar, fire an old rusty .32 pistol, and hit a man 30' away in the 10 ring and you guys shoot up whole neighborhoods including parked cars, houses, and alley cats after a whole lot of training and not hit the person at whom you were aiming?

I opined that I did not know the answer. And I still don't.

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... a little behind in my work

One thing that I think is being over looked in this thread is that we have been at war for going on 11(?) years and a lot of people have cycled through the military during that time and some of them have become criminals since.

I’m not SURE how much credibility to place on this but I have read stories and seen some news reports that claim that gang members are joining the military with the intent of getting military training and experience which they come home and pass on to their gang buddies.

It might be that I see it more because I live in a military town but we’ve had a couple of instances of soldiers coming back from deployment and using the skills they learned in combat to commit crimes in Colorado Springs.

I don’t think the percentage of criminals that have had some training is really high but I would definitely take it into account when training to respond to a criminal attack.

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Retired Career Security Guard

I would guess your odds go way up when you shoot first.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

Gang Activity in the U.S. Military

I imagine the gangmembers bring back planning, coordination and action skills rather than marksmanship.

Mexican soldiers were trained by U.S. with the intention of forming an anti drug airmobile (GAFE) force. Some reportedly left the Mexican army and went to work for better money in the cartels (gulf cartel CDG, specifically). Intel cross checking however have never supported this occurrence, no confirmed association.
This is a different matter, since it was a a "plan" that just ...sort of.. Didn't quite work out as planned. And you can unscrew a lightbulb, but you can't unscrew a ....nevermind.....

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Halfway and one more step

True story,
I sat on a grand jury and heard a case where somewhere in excess of 30 shots were fired on a crowded street after a bar fight in Paterson NJ and only one person was hit and he was an innocent by stander who was hiding under a car.
I would say most bad guys have terrible marksmanship skills, at least in my little slice of heaven.

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Back to back World War Champs.

The higher kill ratio with criminals could be due to the fact that when they rob or hold up someone, the gun is out and used at short range with the element of surprise on their side. The responding LEO or citizen is now looking at an armed assailant and the fear of being killed may affect shooting ability.

Shooting at paper during practice is one thing but shooting at someone that is shooting back or has the capability of shooting back is a whole different situation.

There are good books out there that explain how to win a gunfight. Not something that you look forward to being in but better to be the winner than the loser.

Not sure what you mean by this, what are you intiminated by?

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James Redfield
LM #497

Basically what Dick is trying to say is that the guy who shoots first usually wins. But he is old and likes to ramble.....

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Forum consigliere

Very well said.

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Armed and Dangerous

there .. I fixed it for ya ... theres the keyword in the game.
High end marksmanship is a discipline
They tend to lack this in all areas.

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it just needs more voltage

Worry about the wetware, not the hardware.

Don't be intimidated by us, we don't know where you live and we're too old and stupid to hack your computer. Well, except for Lee.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

As others have suggested, I believe the reason the bad guys have a high kill ratio, is normal folks aren't willing to take a human life without GOOD reason, and these thugs aren't normal humans.

I suppose some have natural skills of eye-hand coordination, some have served in the military etc. But generally speaking I'd think less formal training & practice. Plenty of good guys are lousy shots too though. The line in the John Wayne the shootist sums it up well, it's the 3 thumbed putz that will end up getting you. Pretty sure the DUKE didn't say putz, but you get the idea.

Probably the highest degree of criminal firearms accuracy I have heard of was exhibited by Charles Whitman. See Charles Whitman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He hit a *lot* of people at quite long range, to as far away as 1,500 feet (460 meters).

There was another line in The Shootist that fits here as well "You have to be willing, most men aren’t. They’ll blink an eye or draw a breath, I won’t."

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Retired Career Security Guard

This is probably the most profound and well put explaination I have read in many a year.

I would much rather face a trained professional in this type of situation than a amatuer. Professionals are predictable..BECAUSE of their training. The bad guys know that and then result to the age old best tactic..treachery, ambush you name it.

Your mindset and determination to stay alive is not produced by training. Your skill set..yes. Your mental ability to function under the most extreme situation you will ever face...will give you the ability to fight and survive.

And all of your training can fall apart when the first round is fired at YOU!

Your ears will be ringing, your heart pounding trying to leap out of your chest. Your legs feel like lead weights. You have to will yourself with every ounce of your being to move and function. And that my friends, assumes you haven't been hit or injured...yet.

Those who have "Seen the Elephant" know this. I hope that you never have to face this situation. I truly do.

Be safe out there.

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Take your time..quickly.

Not sure what you mean by this, what are you intiminated by?[/QUOTE]

When I was a kid I shot firearms a lot more than in my adult life, 50 caliber muzzle loaders, 22 LR, shotguns but never handguns and really never even gave a thought to self defense. I was a pretty good shot. When my father passed away and I inherited his 243 varmint gun with a scope and bipod the very first shot I took with it was a woodchuck at 300+ yards (circa 1984). 21 years ago I bought my first hand gun, my S&W 640 .38 spl, I still have the original box of shells -15 rounds. 10 rounds were shot at least between 15 and 20 years ago. 5 rounds were fired this past fall just before hunting season, 1st time at a target. Clearly I need to practice, not real bad, but lots of room for improvement. I used to be a good billiards player but it took some serious discipline and time. Nobody ever died from a well executed billiards shot. I don't ever want to engage someone else with a gun, especially some one with skills. That's what's intimidating. I will get proficient with my S&W, soon, but I may never get as skilled as some of you all with a gun. That in itself reinforces the fact that I never want to engage any of my firearms with another human. I ain't easy pickings though!

John

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Luke 23:34

There are plenty of shootings in Toledo. For the most part, the so called victim gets shot in the leg. Now, was this intentional, or was the shooter shooting low and to the left?

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Inconsistently consistent

Don't have to read the link, he was a former Marine.
He is a different scenario, trained and insane.

I always thought Lee Harvey Oswold was a remarkable marksman.

I have an old Carcano, and I could't hit a barn with it while standing in the hallway.

I'm not sure what the o.p. is trying to say. Scary? Intimidating?

I'm amazed by the amount of knowledge available at this forum, but I've yet to feel scared or intimidated here.

LoneJack
I think I woulda told the judge that he just don't understand the determination of a woman scorned.
Blessings

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TEXAS, by GOD

An old man once told me he'd never seen a woman, who never having touched a gun, couldn't pick up a pistol and hit you right between the eyes at a considerable distance; first shot.

That being said, my wife has always been a very good shot.

21 years ago I bought my first hand gun, my S&W 640 .38 spl, I still have the original box of shells -15 rounds. 10 rounds were shot at least between 15 and 20 years ago. 5 rounds were fired this past fall just before hunting season, 1st time at a target. Clearly I need to practice, not real bad, but lots of room for improvement.

I used to be a good billiards player but it took some serious discipline and time. Nobody ever died from a well executed billiards shot.
John[/QUOTE]

Hi John, 1st shooting 15 rounds in 20 some years has you behind the 8 ball, so to speak. It might help to buy a similar 22 LR pistol, find some 22 ammo and practice, practice and more practice.

Is shooting billiards the same as shooting pool? A few times I have seen individuals attacked because they just won someone's money after a pool game. It is serious among some, pride, money, hate to lose, ego issues and all fueled by alcohol.

Typical when not using sights and pushing the handgun when firing. One reason kids are hit by gang members instead of the intended target.