What If...

[plumber84104]

You have a 9mm tucked away...
You have a Conceal License...
Your at a store...
Bad guy walks in...
Has a gun...
You feel you need to draw and shoot...
Bad guy is hit and on the ground...
You have a smoking gun in your outstretched arm...
Another Conceal person then enters the scene...
Shoots you dead...


Food for thought...You do not always know who the bad guy is...That's a serious and instantaneous call you have to make...Second shooter just shot you dead...Justification, smoking gun in your hand and person dead on the floor?...He does not know your not the bad guy...A situation that can go bad quick...

[twobit601]

Yup, even happens to off duty police.

As for the answer to "what if" there is no answer...you are dead!

[redlevel]

I am not a police officer. I am not a hero. Unless the bad guy is berserk and shooting up the store, my gun remains in my pocket. I try to be invisible. Let him take the money and leave. I don't have the backing of any government liability protection. If I fire and hit the Baptist preacher standing in line, I am liable. Your scenario is possible, although probably unlikely. More likely is an officer, either on duty or off duty, coming on the scene and deciding you are the bad guy.

I decided a long time ago that my little j-frame is there to protect me and my family. Not to protect anyone else. Especially not to protect someone else's property. Again, let him take the money and go.

Everyone carrying a concealed weapon needs to read this at least once a month:

Commentary by Evan Marshall

[Donn]

Originally Posted by redlevel

I am not a police officer. I am not a hero. Unless the bad guy is berserk and shooting up the store, my gun remains in my pocket. I try to be invisible. Let him take the money and leave. I don't have the backing of any government liability protection. If I fire and hit the Baptist preacher standing in line, I am liable. Your scenario is possible, although probably unlikely. More likely is an officer, either on duty or off duty, coming on the scene and deciding you are the bad guy.

I decided a long time ago that my little j-frame is there to protect me and my family. Not to protect anyone else. Especially not to protect someone else's property. Again, let him take the money and go.

Everyone carrying a concealed weapon needs to read this at least once a month:

Commentary by Evan Marshall

^^+^^ Red's spot on. I haven't seen many here, but there are an alarming number of CC'ers on other sites who are squarely in the "I wish that blankity-blank would try something" camp. Hope they never have to find out real life isn't a TV show.

[brucev]

Originally Posted by plumber84104

You have a 9mm tucked away...
You have a Conceal License...
Your at a store...
Bad guy walks in...
Has a gun...
You feel you need to draw and shoot...
Bad guy is hit and on the ground...
You have a smoking gun in your outstretched arm...
Another Conceal person then enters the scene...
Shoots you dead...


Food for thought...You do not always know who the bad guy is...That's a serious and instantaneous call you have to make...Second shooter just shot you dead...Justification, smoking gun in your hand and person dead on the floor?...He does not know your not the bad guy...A situation that can go bad quick...

Simplify. Criminal acts. Citizen legally cc reacts and shoots criminal who is carrying out a crime. Citizen does not just stand there w/ "smoking gun." Citizen has enough sense to be telling everyone concerned to call 911... etc. You don't just stand there... maybe smoke a cigarette, etc.

If the above scenario plays out as described, the second person cc who shoots will possibly get off from any criminal charges. The family of the person he kills will have him by the wallet for the rest of his life. Cool. He deserves it. Same for anyone else who acts like a cowboy and pops rounds off w/o exercising responsible judgement as a reasonable man.

[NYlakesider]

Unless you are the owner or think your life is in eminent danger I would not do anything but try to get behind cover and wait it out. Get a good look at the bad guy for identifying reasons later when the cops show up!

As a non LEO civilian I made my mind up decades ago what I will OR WILL NOT DO in most any possible situation.

[WuzzFuzz]

Second shooter ...MY BAD....Second shooter was not under threat. Second shooter did not quickly analyze situation for need to shoot.

For the reason stated in OP...just because a person comes upon scene with what "APPEARS" to be one situation, may not always be what it seems.

Weren't we taught from the beginning to "Look before you Leap"?

All the more reason to save yourself...let the world save itself...


WuzzFuzz

[skrazo]

I think it's good for CCW persons to consider this scenario periodically and have a mental plan for what they would do in this situation. As said above, unless that bad guy threatens me directly and I feel my or my family's life is on the line, I'm not going to play LEO or cowboy.

[Krell1]

Originally Posted by redlevel

I am not a police officer. I am not a hero. Unless the bad guy is berserk and shooting up the store, my gun remains in my pocket. I try to be invisible. Let him take the money and leave. I don't have the backing of any government liability protection. If I fire and hit the Baptist preacher standing in line, I am liable. Your scenario is possible, although probably unlikely. More likely is an officer, either on duty or off duty, coming on the scene and deciding you are the bad guy.

I decided a long time ago that my little j-frame is there to protect me and my family. Not to protect anyone else. Especially not to protect someone else's property. Again, let him take the money and go.

Everyone carrying a concealed weapon needs to read this at least once a month:

Commentary by Evan Marshall

Exactly what we were told to do in our concealed carry class. You're in a fast food restaurant and an armed robber decides to hold up the place. He demands all the money in the register. So far, has not threatened you. Leave your gun in your pocket/holster and let him take the money. Cops will sort it out later.

[Rpg]

A CCW is not a badge that makes you the Lone Ranger, Captain America or Batman.

Intervening in situations that don't constitute immediate threats to your life is a very bad idea.

Just my opinion, of course.

[pawncop]

Another +1 for redlevel's observation. In the situation you describe you would best serve as a good witness.

If you were directly threatened, then by all means respond and defend yourself. The decision to use deadly force in the defense of another is more of gray area and therefore more complicated and potentially more dangerous for you.

[Marshwheeling]

It happened here a few years ago. Armed citizen comes on an assault in progress, shoots the bad guy to stop the assault. Cops arrive on scene, see an armed man, shoot him dead. They took some criticism for not inquiring, but as I recall, were not charged. I have no idea what the civil fallout was.

[gundriller]

skrazo and redlevel, well said sirs. My sentiments exactly.

[Jessie]

Originally Posted by WuzzFuzz

Second shooter ...MY BAD....Second shooter was not under threat. Second shooter did not quickly analyze situation for need to shoot.

For the reason stated in OP...just because a person comes upon scene with what "APPEARS" to be one situation, may not always be what it seems.

Weren't we taught from the beginning to "Look before you Leap"?

All the more reason to save yourself...let the world save itself...


WuzzFuzz

Same applies to the first shooter. The guy he shot was just pulling a gun out, could have been an undercover getting ready to make an arrest for all he knew.
Neither one of the shooters faced an imminent life threat as I read it.

[Brian41]

I like these threads as I do what if scenarios in my head all the time and even have dreams about them. I'm of the mind too to defend myself and not be the policeman on the scene either. Most of the time these robbers are only after the money and are gone. When they start herding everyone to the freezer it's a different story.
If I was in the situation here I would try and have my gun put up after the threat had passed and be the old guy with a phone in his hand calling 911.

[Autococker07]

Immanent bodily harm to self or others.

I would hope that someone who carries can tell the difference between a person with a gun and a person threatening with a gun. If not, you are screwed.... fratricide happens....

[Kid44]

Originally Posted by redlevel

I am not a police officer. I am not a hero. Unless the bad guy is berserk and shooting up the store, my gun remains in my pocket. I try to be invisible. Let him take the money and leave. I don't have the backing of any government liability protection. If I fire and hit the Baptist preacher standing in line, I am liable. Your scenario is possible, although probably unlikely. More likely is an officer, either on duty or off duty, coming on the scene and deciding you are the bad guy.

I decided a long time ago that my little j-frame is there to protect me and my family. Not to protect anyone else. Especially not to protect someone else's property. Again, let him take the money and go.

Everyone carrying a concealed weapon needs to read this at least once a month:

Commentary by Evan Marshall

Good response, I agree. There is NOTHING that belongs to someone else that is worth my life, or that of a family member. Carrying a gun does not make you a hero. In fact if you're stupid you shouldn't be allowed to carry at all, you're just risking someone else's life.

[Alpo]

Originally Posted by Jessie

Same applies to the first shooter. The guy he shot was just pulling a gun out, could have been an undercover getting ready to make an arrest for all he knew.
Neither one of the shooters faced an imminent life threat as I read it.

Original post said, "Bad guy enters". Not just "man comes in and draws gun". Maybe OP knew he was a bad guy, somehow. Wearing a trenchcoat and a stocking mask, maybe.

I have a friend. Probably the reason he is STILL my friend is I never told him this.

He was wiring some money, and I just went along. Afterwards he told me that he felt better, standing there with that grand in cash, "...knowing you you were standing there with your hand cannon in your pocket".

If someone had attempted to rob him, I'd have stood there and watched it. I ain't a cop, and I ain't his bank guard, and unless me or mine is in danger, I'm just gonna watch it go down.

[oberon]

NYlakesider snip/Get a good look at the bad guy for identifying reasons later when the cops show up!/snip

Yup. He would be the guy with a big bloody hole in his melon, and a couple to the torso.

Naaah. Bad joke. Not funny. Not really. But be prepared to take cover and shoot or return fire if necessary. You are useless if you do not survive the situation.

[vigil617]

That's one reason why we R-E-H-O-L-S-T-E-R.......

[venomballistics]

We'd like to mitigate all the risks involved in life in general.
For each solution, fate offers a work around.

Despite all the steps imposed by regulatory entities.
the jug of milk in the fridge may be festering with salmonella
The car in the garage may suffer a catastrophic suspension failure on the freeway.
The path you walk may cross a sinkhole
and while your retching from food poisoning, busted up from a car wreck, and sinking into the earth, the cell phone you use to call 911 may burst into flames against your head.
It could happen ... odds are against it but that never stopped some interesting news stories from going into print.

In this life, you must embrace the ever present existence of risk, or you will be crippled by it.

[zzzippper]

Amen redlevel. Regardless of the outcome, every bullet has a lawyer attached to it. Or something worse.

Originally Posted by redlevel

I am not a police officer. I am not a hero. Unless the bad guy is berserk and shooting up the store, my gun remains in my pocket. I try to be invisible. Let him take the money and leave. I don't have the backing of any government liability protection. If I fire and hit the Baptist preacher standing in line, I am liable. Your scenario is possible, although probably unlikely. More likely is an officer, either on duty or off duty, coming on the scene and deciding you are the bad guy.

I decided a long time ago that my little j-frame is there to protect me and my family. Not to protect anyone else. Especially not to protect someone else's property. Again, let him take the money and go.

Everyone carrying a concealed weapon needs to read this at least once a month:

Commentary by Evan Marshall

[timn8er]

+1 to venomballistics. You can "what if" you're self to death if you try hard enough.You'll be so busy worried about all the possible aspects & ramifications that you won't be able to sleep. Ask me how I know! Use some common sense & step carefully.

[carpriver]

What if I didn't have a "Hero Complex".? Many people have voiced good opinions on this purposed situation. I stopped trying to be a hero when I was 19 years old, and decided if I were ever in a situation again where I had to use a gun to save a life I would be sure I knew who the enemy was. If the gun is pointed at me or a family member I will defend them. If the bad guy is already pointing a gun at someone I better know he a robber for sure and not a plans clothes police officer serving a warrant etc.

Once a bullet is fired you can't call it back. Regret lasts a life time.

[shouldazagged]

What if there were no hypothetical questions?

I have no intention of drawing my gun, much less firing it, unless my life or that of someone close to me is in imminent peril. I'm too old and tired for much what-iffing.

[WC145]

That exact scenario is why the inventor of the CCW Sash is going to be a millionaire someday!

[Marshwheeling]

Originally Posted by WC145

That exact scenario is why the inventor of the CCW Sash is going to be a millionaire someday!

The sash is worthless unless it is backed up by a CCW badge.

[WC145]

Originally Posted by Marshwheeling

The sash is worthless unless it is backed up by a CCW badge.

I have two on my sash, they're pinned just above the first "C", front and rear. Can't be too cautious!

[gfy1960]

Originally Posted by WuzzFuzz

Weren't we taught from the beginning to "Look before you Leap"?

Unfortunately this does not seem to be taught these days. Our parents taught us to analyse, stop, look, and listen.

Now a days they are taught that they are always right and are better than everyone else. Don't take responsibility for your actions that's the other person's job.

I see this almost every day at work.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack, but it seemed relevant.

[bobelk99]

Originally Posted by redlevel

Everyone carrying a concealed weapon needs to read this at least once a month:
Commentary by Evan Marshall

Amen. That is an excellent piece.

Thanks for the post.

[shooter5112]

Originally Posted by Marshwheeling

It happened here a few years ago. Armed citizen comes on an assault in progress, shoots the bad guy to stop the assault. Cops arrive on scene, see an armed man, shoot him dead. They took some criticism for not inquiring, but as I recall, were not charged. I have no idea what the civil fallout was.

Here's another. CCW holder chose to get involved in a robbery. Missed the robber but killed the clerk.

CHL holder fired shot that killed store clerk - Houston weather, traffic, news | FOX 26 | MyFoxHouston

[walkin jack]

I suppose that I'm like many others that carry a gun. I've spent lots of time over the 15 years I've had a CHL about various scenarios and what would be my best course of action in some of the ones I've played out in my mind.

It can be a mind boggling subject because there is an infinite number of scenarios and a lot of them the best action is not immediately obvious.

Here is a short list of things I consider to be important factors.
. Which of my ccw guns am I carrying and what are it's capabilities and limitations
. What is the potential for collateral damage
. Is it day or night
. Am I in any immediate danger if I react or don't react
. Is there immediate danger to anyone if I don't get involved
. If I get involved how many attackers will I be facing
. How well are they armed
. If I'm going to shoot what is my confidence in my ability to shoot accurately and safely at the distance and under the circumstances that will be required.
. If I hesitate what are the chances that I or someone else will be injured or killed
. How much ammo do I have on me

Even though it would be impossible to think of every possible scenario I believe that it is a good idea to think about what you might do if....and come up with a few and give it some thought. The heat and confusion of the moment does not lend itself to clear thinking. The time to make your commitment to action should start the moment you decide to carry a gun. If you wait until you are sprawled out on the soft drink aisle of the A&P with bullets flying around you it'll be too late. WAAAYYY too late.

If I ever find my self in a situation there is a fair chance that it will be one that I've imagined or close to it and it will already have a head start on the decision making process. You need to remain clear headed and think straight but make up your mind and go with that. Hesitation can have just as bad an outcome as rushing in without taking the time to make a good assessment and decision. What is that old saying, "Chance favors the prepared mind."

I have enough training and trigger time to fairly asses most situations I think. I know my capabilities and limitations as well as those of all my carry weapons. I would not get involved if there was a chance that my intervention would add danger to the situation for anyone. Only if I was positive that my action could save someone from being killed or seriously injured.

And as always situational awareness is a major factor. If you are in a crowded store or restaurant or parking lot or walking along a sidewalk in your neighborhood or downtown or where ever, if you haven't been paying attention then you are at a severe disadvantage if something happens. Keep your eyes open. Pay attention to your surroundings. This is no time in history to take your safety for granted.

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Well this is certainly better than the bear gun thread.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Donn

^^+^^ Red's spot on. I haven't seen many here, but there are an alarming number of CC'ers on other sites who are squarely in the "I wish that blankity-blank would try something" camp. Hope they never have to find out real life isn't a TV show.

I think the reason we don’t get a lot of these threads is because we’re an older crowd. I’ve seen them go on for hundreds of posts on some of the other forums, usually with the attitude that if you don’t intervene you’re a coward who has no sense of civic responsibility.

According to the most recent DOJ statistics I’ve seen, less than 0.02 % (2/1000) robberies end in shots fired. With the odds that much in my favor I can’t imagine myself getting in it unless I saw a clear threat or a clear indicator that the robber was going to fire.

[shouldazagged]

Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER

Well this is certainly better than the bear gun thread.

That's a relief, I was beginning to wonder.

[Beemerguy53]

Originally Posted by Rpg

A CCW is not a badge that makes you the Lone Ranger, Captain America or Batman.

Intervening in situations that don't constitute immediate threats to your life is a very bad idea.

Just my opinion, of course.

If George Zimmerman had followed that advice, our country would have been a whole lot better off.

[Beemerguy53]

Originally Posted by Marshwheeling

The sash is worthless unless it is backed up by a CCW badge.

In the 'hood where I worked, the young men carrying concealed weapons (illegally, of course) didn't need a sash; the police knew them by their baggy pants, puffy coats, and pit bulls. Not trying to be humorous here...it's sad but true.

[Beemerguy53]

Originally Posted by WC145

That exact scenario is why the inventor of the CCW Sash is going to be a millionaire someday!

You know, if I was a carry permit holder, I don't know that I would want to be advertising that to the world...wouldn't it make you a target?

[Kid44]

Originally Posted by Beemerguy53

You know, if I was carry permit holder, I don't know that I would want to be advertising that to the world...wouldn't it make you a target?

No ****???

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Beemerguy53

You know, if I was a carry permit holder, I don't know that I would want to be advertising that to the world...wouldn't it make you a target?

Supposedly you carry the sash in a little pouch on your belt and "deploy" it as needed