I'm bidding on a S&W Model 30 that had the serial number on the grip crudely filed off. The serial remains on the cylinder and the crane, according to the seller. I think there is still some legal liability on possessing a gun with an altered serial number, even if the number is still on other parts. Don't know how to phrase the question really, would it be legal to possess this gun with an alter or removed serial? I would have the serial number re-stamped if I owned this gun but in the interim, would it be illegal?

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Old paratrooper in NC

RUN. AWAY. FAST!!!

The number can be legally reassigned, but only under the direction of the BATFE. Personally, I wouldn't buy it and I don't think it can be legally transferred in its current condition. If the current owner goes through the hoops of having it re-stamped and includes a letter from the BATFE verifying it was done legally, it's a different story.

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Even older, even crankier....

S# on crane and cylinder? That's a new one.

Don't waste your time or money or freedom, find another model 30

gun, as defined by the BATF, is the frame.
the rest of it is spare parts traveling in tight formation with the gun.

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it just needs more voltage

I believe those are assembly numbers, not serial numbers iirc

§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered
serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport,
ship, or receive in interstate or foreign
commerce any firearm which has had
the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial
number removed, obliterated, or altered,
or possess or receive any firearm
which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s
serial number removed, obliterated,
or altered and has, at any
time, been shipped or transported in
interstate or foreign commerce.

Worth about 10 years if memory serves........I think I would find another gun.

which brings us back to BATF firearm definition of being the basic frame.
does the frame have the SN on it, in tact?
if not, it's poison.

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it just needs more voltage

I would stay away from that one.

Even if it is legal or could be made legal, I would never want to be in a position of having to having to answer questions about it. That could get time consuming and expensive even if you are eventually vindicated.

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You're shy a few manners.

We had a discussion about this topic over at the Colt forum a while ago. A member posted a letter he had received from ATF in response to an inquiry. The attached snip shows the relevant section.
What ultimately matters is how ATF interprets the law. And this letter doesn't leave any wiggle room.

Attached Images

Serial.JPG (62.9 KB, 442 views)

That all pretty much confirms my second thought. Guess that also explains why no one else has bid on it. Interesting in that the seller, a FFL says the gun came from a police auction of confiscated guns!

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Old paratrooper in NC

It could very well have come from a police auction of confiscated firearms. If they had hundreds of firearms one or two could have slipped through the cracks.

I'd still run from it. There are nothing but problems associated with that gun.

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... a little behind in my work

All I can offer on this is a handful of nopes.

How and are you going to take possession if/when you win the auction?

When was this Model 49 new?

Here's a short story on my accidental buy of a numberless gun.

There are other Model 30s in the sea. Let that go.

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>>ARMED LIBERAL>>

Bonnie Parker's snubbie, taped to her thigh when she was killed, had a defaced serial number.

Recently, BATFE allowed it to be renumbered so it could be sold.

What happen when a serial number rusts away from serious but unintentional neglect.

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Buy American
Vote Responsibly

The seller has withdrawn the auction and says he will seek a ruling from ATF. Thanks for the discussion guys.

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Old paratrooper in NC

UPDATE: The dealer consulted with the ATF and they (no surprise ) told him it was contraband and must be destroyed or turned back in to police. To the FFL's credit, he thanked me for pointing this out to him! I'm afraid all too many would have derided me as an idiot that didn't know anything!

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Old paratrooper in NC

RUN FORREST RUN!

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NULLI SECUNDUS

In addition to federal law there are numerous states having laws on the books prohibiting possession of firearms with altered or obliterated serial numbers. Pretty much a sure fire way to get yourself detained, firearms confiscated, and likely need the services of bail bondsmen and attorneys.

from what I understand of the law, the original owner of such a piece may apply to the ATF to have a serial re stamped and be legit.
I hear this is rare though.

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it just needs more voltage

If that wiped ser no is on the firing control part (frame) I wouldn't touch it at all.

Don't wanna leave my fingerprint on it.

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_It was love at first shot_

The chances that it has been used in a crime are GREAT. I wouldn't touch it with a 10' Pole if it was the last model 30 on earth. Lots of great advice above.

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Real men love cats!

Reading this, there is no Federal offense to own or sell within a state.


QUOTE=LoadedRound;138215042]§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered
serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport,
ship, or receive in interstate or foreign
commerce any firearm which has had
the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial
number removed, obliterated, or altered,
or possess or receive any firearm
which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s
serial number removed, obliterated,
or altered and has, at any
time, been shipped or transported in
interstate or foreign commerce.

Worth about 10 years if memory serves........I think I would find another gun.[/QUOTE]

A big, felonious mistake.

Wrong.
You will probably not be able to find a state in the US that does not have a law on the books about altered or obliterated serial numbers.
I have seen county codes that make them illegal even though the parent state has such a law!

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Yup, one of many laws that I see little logic in but tend to obey anyhow.
What seems contradictory about it is that it is perfectly legal to build a firearm. Sell and transfer, not so much ... have Bridgeport, will mill

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it just needs more voltage

Wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole!

Probably , but my post said Federal offense.
S 478.34 posted only concerns interstate or foreign movement of one, not ownership.

mick, explain the word "possess" within the confines of your post....

Contraband. IIRC, even the older models that sometimes had no serial number are supposed to be turned over to ATF.

Continuing to read......

possess or receive any firearm
which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s
serial number removed, obliterated,
or altered

"""and has, at any
time, been shipped or transported in
interstate or foreign commerce."""

Looks as if the the gun has not crossed state lines or another countries border, the Federal government has no authority. At least in this statue.,

I don't think that is correct. If an FFL receives one, for example for repair, they may not be allowed to send it back to the owner. But I don't think there is any crime for an individual owning a firearm that never had a serial number. That is different than removing a number that is supposed to be there.

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Common sense isn't so common.

So, what are the odds you would prove that a firearm with an altered or removed serial number had avoided interstate commerce...

[QUOTE=ironhead7544;138218574]Contraband. IIRC, even the older models that sometimes had no serial number are supposed to be turned over to ATF.

BS.............................
JIM........................

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SWCA # L-1911

I am an FFL holder.. Many pre- GCA of 1968(?) firearms were never assigned a serial #.. I have in my possession a bunch of older firearms that have no serial #....
I ain't afraid.....
JIM...................

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SWCA # L-1911

Maybe a bill of sale from an instate auction that was selling police confiscated
guns from that state and the bill of sale has quality detailed photos showing identifiable flaws or marks ?

I understand guilty til proven innocent, been there . Don't want to be there again. I would not buy one either.
.

I can pretty much guarantee that a police auction would NOT include firearms that violate federal laws!!

pretty much a furnace project...

I bought an older Westernfield 550 (mossberg 500) 12ga from a big gunshop with no serial number - never had one and was clearly marked on the tag as such.
I did all the paperwork bkgrnd check w/no problem. They clearly marked it as NSN on the 4473.

BS, show me where in the BATF regulations it says that.
Serial numbers were not REQUIRED prior to 1968.

That revolver could have come from God himself, and you should still run away from it.

I also question the smarts of the FFL who would knowingly put such a questionable firearm up for auction.

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I'm with the banned ...

if the serial is filed off stay away like far far away

My understanding is that firearms manufactured before 68 were not required to be assigned serial numbers. Guns without serial numbers are grandfathered if, and only if, they were manufactured without them. If the factory assigned serial numbers they cannot be defaced.

Is this correct?

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Even older, even crankier....

I have seen this happen before. The FFL needs to contact ATF. They will issue a serial number. Once the number is confirmed by ATF as having the correct serial number the gun can be transferred. Until this happens it is illegal to transfer the pistol.

Yes, that is correct.

Correct. I have a Stevens 16ga and 12ga. Both manufactured in the 1950s. Neither have serial numbers. Both are legal.

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A gun has no brain.. use yours

Serial numbers were not required on shotguns or long guns in cal 22RF mgf'd before 1968 (GCA68).
Handguns (all calibers) and center fire caliber rifles mfg'd before GCA68 were required to have serial numbers.

Some mfg'rs did ser# their shotguns and 22rf cal long guns prior to 1968,,others did not.
Some ser#'d some their models and not others (Winchester .22rf Rifle models for instance)
After Dec 1968,,all firearms mfg'rd in the USA were required to be ser#d when the shotguns and 22cal long guns were designated as so by GCA68.

The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 (Not to be confused with the National F/A Act '33) made the removal/alteration/obliteration of a mfg'r applied firearms ser# or the possession of a firearm with such a ser# so altered, a felony.

FFA '38 repealed and replaced with the GCA in 1968.
GCA'68 continued the law in it's text as well as some of the other original FFA'38 points and expanded on them as well.
The FFL system is a good example of that as well as felons not being able to own firearms or ammunition.

Who cares--if it shoots ?
Blessings

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TEXAS, by GOD

A person has a stolen firearms and removes the serial number to disguise the fact its a stolen firearm. However "Possession Of Stolen Property" (A petty crime) to "Removing a Firearm Serial Number" is now a Felony

I agree with all the comments above!

Attached Images

run-away_monty-python.jpg (20.7 KB, 13 views)

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Still just a kid at heart