Admin Edit-

Keep it civil.

If you people want to keep the thread open, keep it cool, unemotional, and don't get personal.

S&W doesn't make wolves, so I feel no great need to discuss the topic.

Get it?

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Original Post-

Well not quite at the door, but down the street a little ways...And not figurative wolves either, but the literal four legged and furry kind.

They are common enough in Wyoming that the state has had court battles with the Federal government, trying to get them delisted of their endangered status and establishing a hunting season.

I have heard their howls several times now. Including during the day. It was in close the last time.

Lansing (MI) used to have the zoo open for free on Mondays, so I would someone times go. They had a gray wolf habitat. I never caught sight of any of the wolves from the viewing deck, they were good at hiding, but I heard them make their distinctive howl several times.

Now I hear that sound again, in my own backyard.

While true that wolves eat few people in modern North America, they killed around 7200 people in France between 1700 and make 1920. Frenchmen taste good I suppose.

Wolves remain a feared predator in Siberia, parts of India, Pakistan, and the Carpathians. In the latter, the Romanian government supports wolf hunts by tourists to this day.

I wonder if a 9mm or .38 special will suffice as wolf medicine, or perhaps the old .44 caliber revolver ball over about 35 grains of BP would be better....I hope that I do not have to find out.

My great grandmother spoke of wolves in the woods when she first came to America at the start of the 20th Century. It would seem that they are back.

I wonder who's bright idea that was...

Did you see this recent wolf story? (Courtesy of Live Science .com). It's rather sad that such a scientifically important creature was accidentally killed.

Wayward Grand Canyon Wolf Was Killed in Utah, DNA Confirms

PA used to be filled with panthers, elk, and wolves, but almost every one was hunted down decades ago. I saw a huge coyote up close once, and once was enough ... fuhgeddabout seeing a wolf. I wouldn't be too keen on knowing wolves were populating my neighborhood, although I'm sure they would simply go about their predator business. Actually, as wolves are fairly scarce in most parts of the country, there's probably a much practical danger in forested areas from packs of feral dogs.

I also found an interesting article on Alaskan wolves (courtesy of ADFG . Alaska . gov):

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...rticles_id=503

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I'm with the banned ...

There have been sightings in Indiana, not far from where I live. I am a lot more concerned about aggressive bucks. I suppose if I saw a pack of them close by I might feel differently.

You are right about wolves wanting to go there own way and have little to do with human contact. On my summer motorcyle trip to Alaska last year the wolves I saw would acknowledge you with a look and simply go there own way. I came across several but the most impressive was this wolf crossing the two lane road to Valdez, he had something in his mouth and as I can over a rise in the road we looked directly at each other. By this time he was in the middle of the road and looking at me like I better stop because he wasn't. I came to a stop and he finished crossing the road all the while watching me. I have a 120 pound german Shepard and this wolf made my dog look like a pup.....he was massive. I never did get a picture of him other wolves I saw. But I did get some of the bears.....no reason we can't exist with all of God's creatures.

Its only a matter of time before Wyoming issues some tags for the Big Horn Mountains. First Elk hunt in the Big Horns about 5 years ago, we pitched a spike camp up the Little Goose Creek back over the ridgeline to the west in under the point you can see with the repeater tower from town. ( I think it is called Little Goose point). First day of hunt, sit over a wallow all afternoon and promised my buddy to wait by the trail until he returned so we could walk the last mile or so back to camp together. About 15 minutes after complete dark, I am standing leaning against a tree and a wolf cuts loose is what sounded like he was less that 300-400 yards away. This old Alabama redneck had never heard one in the wild. After the hair quit standing up on my neck, I chambered a round back in the rifle and was on pins and needles til my buddy arrives 10-15 minutes later. They howled all night, off and on and we kept camp there for a total of four nights. They were never far from camp each day when dark arrived, they would let you know where they were. When Wy issues Wolf tags for the Big Horns, I will be back, there is some of the wildest looking country up in those mountains. My walls are adorned with photos made on hunts up there. Guess the critters are down out of the mountain chasing all those Whitetails and mule deer that invade town in the Winter. Only place I have ever been where you can drive around and see 20-30 nice racked buck in the last 30 minutes of daylight from paved county roads.

See what happens when you move from the seaside? You use to only worry about being eaten by a shark, now it is stuff with four legs.

Stay safe and keep out of the water....ahhh the woods !

Deer are far more deadly to humans. Instead of a "season", we need a bounty on deer. The wolf population will then wane accordingly.

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Not in jail.

Something about having wolves in the wilder parts of the country just seems right but I am sure ranchers and others have a different view.

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Hue 68 noli me tangere

as i was told, by an old timer, this 45+ years ago. @ the turn of the last century there was a bounty of $100 for the wolf. was hunting Middle Jerry Run when i met this pleasent old timer in the woods, on top of a mountain in Pa. while deer hunting. we sat down on the flat, shared what i had in my pack. related to me it was considered that the last red wolf harvested in Pa. was on Middle Jerry Run where we were sitting. the year i'm not sure, 1927 seems to be the year for my best rememberence that the old timer related to me. 1st. time i hunted the run, it was flat on top of the mountain, caused by a glacier. laurel bushes were 5 ft. high. a tough hunt.

I read a book about growing up in rural Colorado. In the early 1900's the cattlemans association hired a professional hunter to rid the valley of wolves. He was paid per set of ears he collected. After the first season he had enough money to buy his own ranch. When asked how he got so many wolves he told of finding a den, killing the parents with gun or trap, then he would send his 8 year old son into the den to drag the pups out one at a time. His dad said an adult wolf was in the den occasionally and there was a ruckus but nothing his son could not handle. Might be child abuse in these days.
An excellent book called Alaska's Wolf Man, is about a man that hunted wolves for 40 years in Alaska. Well worth the read.

Hey Gator- You do have a shovel right?

i have seen 5 wolves here in eastern Oregon, one about eight miles from town. Most have been in the woods 25-50 miles from home. They eat a LOT of elk

Wolves. Grey, timber, lobo or whatever you want to call them. I do not like having them for neighbors. Up until retiring and moving down to GA, we lived in Northern MN, less than an hour from the Canadian border. Whole lot of nothing up there but wild. Wolves made a helluva comeback up until we left. Wolf-tracks not far out the door told me it was just a matter of time before we lost a dog to them. Their howls, day or night, set my hair to standing up on my neck.

We had lots of neighbors that raised beef-cattle and one that raised cattle and horses for the rodeos. Well, wolves started taking herds down and the Feds would pay the owners but $400 each for their dead live-stock. So, in their infinite wisdom, the Feds and the State of MN, decided to have a town-hall meeting to discuss the influx of wolves. They even had to invite PETA and other animal-rights groups to mix it up with the farmers and ranchers up there. One lady with a large group stood up and gave the crowd their take on preserving the wolves. Neuter them. Live-trap them and neuter them and release them back into the setting, where they could no longer procreate. Yup, neuter them.

My old neighbor, who raised live-stock for rodeos, got up and snapped his suspenders and said, "I just lost a herd-bull. Yer 400-bucks barely pays for removing his remains. He was a $7,000 herd-bull. If'n yer proposing to neuter your critters, I call bull. These wolves are notta breeding my cattle, they are a-killing them." Needless to say that cracked up the audience and the officials that came. The lady stomped her feet and said, "Why I never...I will not put up with such abuse." And, she left.

The Feds and State both agreed with the locals and they did not give free reign to have locals killing them, but they called in Federal and State trappers and they set out to lowering the population. One even went so far as to offering to live-trap a couple of pair of the wolves and let them loose in the park down at the State Capitol. That did not get approved.

Nope, I did not and will not ever like wolves as neighbors. It just seemed that they killed for sport a lot of times. We found many dead deer and cattle that had not been eaten by the wolves that took them down. I guess the wolves had too easy of pickings up there. Just my two-cents worth......

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GA Carry member
Vietnam Vet

Coyotes run through my subdivision at night. Most recently mangled a neighbor's cat. Dead coyotes have been known to "appear" on our lawns in the mornings. Poor things must have had heart attacks.

Both wolves & rats will utilize the available food source to expand their population. When either is in the wild & part of nature's balance, I view them as cute fuzzy creatures.

When they are in my back yard or pantry, they are both vermin & need to be exterminated because they are not in their natural setting & not preying in their natural food source, they are now my competitors for my food cache/source. They stay out in the wild & they are prey to their natural superiors in nature's food chain. They invade my space & the peril they face is my trap & gun. My yard is not their natural food source, so why expect their natural predators to come here to control them.

The bottom line, wolf or rat, no difference, they deserve the same treatment.

luangtom...

You may still have a few north of your location?

For some reason the introduction of the wolf into the Great Smoky National Park was a failure?

"The park’s efforts to reintroduce red wolves were unsuccessful. A number of factors were responsible for this failure, including low reproduction rates and high pup mortality. The wolves were removed from the park and relocated to the Alligator River National Wildlife Refuge in North Carolina."

That's funny... the locals said they died of lead poison?

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Nationality: Confederate

We have red wolves here on the Cape Romain barrier islands and attempts to reintroduce them have failed for the reasons mentioned above and that now they are competing with coyotes which besides interfering with their establishment, mate with them turning the population into hybrids.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Hi to all Can't imagine wolfs in the back yard I have 3 dogs [app.80lbs] and they would be mid night snack for a 145lb wolf pack Fence for dog yard would have to be 8ft with lights and me as guard every time they went out And no more play time at the lake with Frisbees. We have a pack of coyotes [app6] that howls and moves thru every so often They send the hair up the back of my neck When I deem them close enough I remind them that this house and occupants are armed and also dangerous The Ruger 10/22 makes enough noise and cheep enough to shut them up and hopefully send them to the next township And to leave MY deer/stray cats/rabbits alone. The choc lab seems to want to stay close when they howl Somehow she knows that they are not healthy for her We are 3rd owner [last lived even more rural] and she was let run a lot Maybe she had a run in with them. In the 70's and early 80's We went water fowling and fishing in Manitoba and heard wolves in the distance Slept with a loaded shotgun LOL Never thought I would contemplate the same in almost suburb of Cleveland Ohio Best to all:

That's a new one on me. I've lived in Indiana since 1963 and this is the first mention of a wolf I've ever heard of.

Coyotes & Coyo-dogs have been a problem since the mid-seventies and the occasional report of Cougars/Puma/Mtn. lions have been going on since the late 70's / early 80's until their local existence was confirmed by the Ind. DNR a couple of years ago.

Bear reports have popped up over the years too, but no conformed sightings or verified photo's or off prints.

With the number of big cat and wolf sanctuaries in Indiana, escapes have happened, but I've never heard of a wolf escape from any by a Wolf.

I did search and found this: DNA tests shed light on cougar, wolf sightings | HUNTING INDIANA but that article refers to Missouri not Indiana
That's the only mention I've found or have even heard of.

The Gray Wolf have made a good come back here in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. The beef and dairy, horse, sheep farmers are up in arms about the wolves;the Upper peninsula whitetail association states the wolves are the reason for the reduced numbers of deer. There is a movement to get the wolf delisted as endangered and a hunt be established.

The wolf was hunted into extinction thru the 1800 and 1900s.

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Carpriver.

You know.. I live twixt the Park(YNP) and the Bighorns. We have wolves..had as many a 6 in the yard..25-50 ft.not yards.. They are not afraid of humans. First time they were trying to lure the dogs out to the pack..These are NOT cute little cuddly critters. They are killers. They kill whatever is the easiest....not the sick or lame. If you have never seen 'em make a kill you do happen to be lucky. Usually not pretty. YNP used to have about 25000 elk in it..Not any longer. Something about 8000 or so. My elk hunting area is south of Cody Wy and used to have 15000 in it. 5-6000 now. I am 70 miles as the crow flies from the park. In the park the deciduous trees are making a comeback...Just what all the touristas go to see..trees. I live on a small ranch(small means less than a 1000 acres) The wolves have killed 2 cows this winter..and they are pretty much where I can see them. They got my wife's cat the coyotes are still around but nowhere near as numerous.Snow is gone now so I can't take a picture of the wolf tracks..but some of these things are huge. A gal I know pretty well killed one in Montana that weighed just shy of 280 lbs. That is a big dog. Really big! The animal rights groups gave them to us and went to Canada to get them. Put them here in Montana Wyoming and Idaho. They don't have to live with them...but we HAVE to and can't even kill 'em if they are killing our cattle...Y'all know the price of meat now..a good yearling steer will bring 12-1500 bucks. And after the wolf kills the cow everything else eats on it and you can't PROVE what Killed it.. So the monies set aside for restitution will not get paid. I can probably trap a few and take 'em to Central Park..Probably find out how many homeless(and others) carry guns in NYC. Do I hate wolves??..Nope. We had the wolves here..the smaller wolves that followed the buffalo herds years ago..But we don't have them now..The bigger transplants have probably killed 'em all. I shot one of the transplants in the yard when it was legal..A 45 auto with 230 gr hollow points will kill them. At least at 10 yards or so.

I have seen a wolf in Indiana. I have a place to hunt in Western Indiana that is about 5,000 acres. Some of it has never been logged, and is extremely rough with deep ravines, and hills.

At first I thought that I saw a huge coy dog, but the body, and legs just weren't right. I asked the man that ran the farm on the land, and he confirmed that it was a wolf, and that a Conservation Officer had been monitoring it.

I've lived next to and played in the Pacific almost my entire life, and not once worried about a shark attack. I figure, sure, it'd be ghastly way to go, but look at the story I'd be leaving my friends and family!

I sort of miss the alligators. You could get used to them and teach the kids to stay away from small ponds.

Traditionally it has been children who have fallen prey to wolves. I have five small children.

I suppose I ought see about trading into a .44 magnum again. The nearby parks have bear proofed trash cans. Mountain lions are also supposed to be close. For lack of a better plan, I have taken to wearing a 4" .38 Special revolver. Pickings have been limited for loads, so it is stuffed with 129 gr hollow points designed for humans. I am not sure how much good it do me, but it seems better than nothing and a prudent traditional precaution.

I remember there used to be wolves in Kane, PA - but they were caged & a tourist attraction. IIRC, they were lobo wolves - I wasn't all that interested in their family history, mostly glad they were not roaming free!

"Hey Gator- You do have a shovel right?"

That'd be poaching.

"Traditionally it has been children who have fallen prey to wolves. I have five small children."

The only confirmed case of a wolf kill in North America was a white, adult female.

A 129 gr 38 spl wouldn't even tick off a grizzly and hardly faze a black bear. Again, bear spray will work on dogs, lions and all three bear species.

Statistically, dogs kill way more people and livestock than do wolves.

By the time I get done watching the news, I think I prefer wolves to people sometimes.

We're awash in the dang things around here. 150 some killed this hunting season, then someone managed to convince a federal judge that they needed to be re-listed as an endangered species. (Because we all know how in touch with the wild a judge in Washington is...) They have done more than their part to collapse the local deer herd and the struggling local elk population, then moved on into cattle and pets.

Don't want to see them 100% gone, but they do need to be managed. Nature does not achieve a balance - she swings the pendulum hard in both directions.

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Do or do not. There is no try.

I have a wolf hide on the back of the couch at my cabin. This was killed before the big reintoduction in Yellowstone. The know- it- alls said they were not here, so we have to plant some in the park{YNP}. These smart folks were back east somewhere. The feds plant X breeding pairs in a cage or cages in the park. I think it was 60 or 90 days they kept them there to get acclimated. Then tell us that they would stay right in Yellowstone Park as everything they would need is right there. About 15 or 20 minutes after opening the gate some ranchers in Idaho and Montana were shooting the wolves. A little later so were the folks in Wyoming. Some of these folks were prosecuted. It came to shooting the wolf at the site of the dead cow or sheep so they could prove they were justified in killing the wolf. Also, there was no more reporting that you shot a wolf. All that did was get you in court.
Pretty hilarious to watch our government in action. They are here to help.

No one bothered to make a comprehensive study of Native American traditions about wolves and their eating habits prior to the introduction of firearms. The general hatred of wolves in the 18th and 19th Century suggests that attacks on humans might well have taken place and simply been thought too unremarkable to bother commenting on. Our ancestors shot them on sight for a reason.

In France, where wolf attacks ended up being both numerous and documented, it was generally children who were prey, followed by women. Various theories were put forward as to why.

The worst of the man eating wolves equalled or surpassed the stories man eating tigers of India and lions in Africa.

A shovel is not necessary and a kill can even be reported when it happens in self defense. "It was coming right for me..." The dead creature won't beblikely to say any different.

A .38 beats trying to kill something with kindess. Though I do still miss my CZ550 in .416 Rigby, purchased as a Sasquatch rifle. I make do with a .45-70.

There are some woods loads produced for the .38 Special. Some of which are....better than nothing. A few old timer big game hunters suggested carrying a .38 or 9mm with FMJ bullets as last chance medicine against a mauling lion or tiger. This was before the .44 Magnum and when the .357 was still uncommon.

Unlike pepper spray, bullets work very well against the wind and at greater than spitting distance.

I will note that what amount to wolf traps, though not advertised and sold as such, enjoy brisk sales to local ranchers. A cynic would suspect that some people in the Cowboy state take care of things informally.

Of course serious fines and consequences can result from killing a wolf. Assuming that it was not self defense.

I think wolves are amazing creatures, though I can understand the fear of having them as neighbors and also the nuisance of them killing livestock.

I wish there were still giant Sabre Tooth Tigers. Then they could take care of the Wolves...and a bunch of other stuff

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But then, what do I know?

I have some of those Federal 129 grain Hydra-Shok .38's, but honestly wouldn't trust them to penetrate well enough to do in a wolf in a frontal shot. Can you get the lead HP Plus P load formerly used by Dallas, Miami, FBI, etc.? If I had to rely on a .38, I'd lean toward that or Buffalo Bore's expensive version of more or less the old .38-44 round. But I wouldn't fire many of the latter in a K-frame or J-frame .38. It'll eventually shake the gun loose. That's based on what the then sales mgr. at S&W once told me about the .38-44 ammo. On the other hand, you probably won't need to fire a lot of it at live animals.

Larry Koller did use a hot 125 grain handload to kill a whitetail when testing Colt's new (1966) Diamondback. Four-inch bbl. But it was a side-on shot into the chest, not a frontal one.

One of my brothers used a snub M-60 with the Winchester version of the FBI load to drop a big Doberman, but the bullet entered a shoulder from above and only put the dog down momentarily. It rose and limped back next door to its owner. The bullet did not enter the body cavity, so no vital organs or arteries were struck. But it did stop the attack.

Maybe not take care of the Dire Wolves. Or the Short-Faced Bear. Would they return with the Sabre Tooth? Gotta watch that messing with ancient DNA...

Definitely want more than a .38 Special for those, too. That .416 Rigby is starting to look good here, if one can't have an RPG at hand. Fortunately, Rigby is back in business, and there's that CZ option. I think my shoulder is afraid of the .416 Weatherby or their .378 or .460.

On a more serious note, the Federal PR man told me that their 158 grain Hydra-Shok is a good load for those who hunt deer with a .357. I carried it in my M-66 when I was working where I had a very reasonable fear of large domestic dogs becoming a threat.

Dogs and wolves are tough and take some serious killing. I think a suitable.38 load would kill a cougar pretty well. Or, a bear, if very well placed. That 150 grain hi-velocity FMJ .38 ammo mentioned by Gator Farmer might do okay in a precise shot, but who sells it now? I wouldn't rely on the weak promotional FMJ .38 ammo sold by Wal-Mart, etc. at cheap prices.

Check out Buffalo Bore.

Faced with that problem, and needing more penetration than HPs would give you, I'd cast up some of the old 158 gr SWCs, out of pure type metal. Many versions of this bullet use a gas check too. I also have a 175 gr SWC that might work even better. Many loads with different powders would get the job done.

I use an expendable Armscor/Rock Island Model 200 with a four inch barrel for walking around. I fitted mine with Pachs meant for a late model Colt D frame. Officially these guns are not even plus P rated, though the importer advises they are fine with limited use. Ugly and cheap, it is functional...and utterly expendable if seized as evidence.

I have some Magtech 158grain FMJs, though I have my doubts that these would do much better.

I have seen either target ammo or "premium" personal defense loads with light bullets for sale locally. Sometimes 158 grain Hornady XTPs turn up.

I might be farther ahead to get some deep penetrating 9mm rounds.

I have rifles and shotguns close to hand at home. The Russian 7.62x54R has killed a lot of wolves, but I have seen documentary footage of a professional wolf hunter in Siberia using an SKS. Siberian wolves grow large and are known to prey on humans at times. Thus I imagine the old 7.65mm Mauser round, which is less powerful than a good 7.62x54R yet more so than a 7.62x39 mm will suffice.

Or the simple expedient of a 12 gauge pump with either slugs or buckshot.

The weak Michigan formula pepper spray I grew up with ran about 50/50 on detering errant yap dogs, squirrels, and possums. Despite stronger formulations being available in fire extinguisher size containers, I am not sure the degree to which I trust it, despite statistics which may suggest it is fine, versus even a marginal medium caliber handgun.

I suppose one could always hope to go out like Liam Neeson in "Into the Gray" and punch it out barehanded with a wolf. It would make for a memorable tombstone notation and fixed bit of family history. "How did your dad/granddad/great granddad die?" "He was eaten by wolves after fist fighting one in the backyard."

Hey Gator-might be time to introduce the young'uns to some Jack London stories.... Start off with "To Build a Fire". That ought to keep them inside until spring

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Forum consigliere

Re: Wolves. Kill 'em all. Without any exception at all, kill 'em all. Use whatever means is at hand. Anything goes. Kill 'em all. If the peta people don't like it, tough. They can go look at wolves in the zoo. Otherwise, kill 'em all. Period. No exception.

As to what caliber to use on a wolf, I would consider whatever was at hand. If you have a 9mm or .38 Special... use it. Multiple shots will be in order as anything worth shooting is worth shooting two or more times. If you have a .45 ACP, the same advice applies. If you have a .44 Special/Magnum, follow the same plan. Shoot till they stop moving. And, if you can get to a rifle or shotgun w/ buckshot, use it. Follow the same plan, shoot till they stop moving. No different than any other vermin. JMHO. Sincerely. brucev.

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<><

See my comments above

As Carpriver has stated the wolf has come back too well in Michigan's Upper Peninsular. We used to deer hunt there and I've seen wolves and also their kills there before. I also started to see lots less deer there once the wolf numbers rose in the areas we hunted. It's partly the reason I don't waste my time trying to hunt deer there anymore. I'm sure others are like me and the loss of deer hunter's dollars has surely hurt the local economies there.
Hopefully they'll let the DNR manage the wolf population and allow the hunting of them in a controlled, scientific manner. With no predators of their own the wolf population is beginning to exceed what the land can support.
I do have to admit though seeing wolves in the wild is a real thrill and something I'm glad I witnessed.

Shoot, Shovel & Shut up has worked for centuries.

Mala Prohibitum laws should be broken as often as possible. It's the American way.

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Smith & Wesson beat four aces

Chuck Karwan, who I believe may be deceased, wrote of the use of a .38 or 9mm, or even 7.62 Tokarev, loaded with deep penetrating ammunition as a last chance against being eaten by a big furry thing. He referenced older writers, but I can't remember his sources. He explored the topic at some length in one of the large digest style books on combat handguns and a number of times in popular press articles. Karwan suggested the use of RWS .38 or .357 AP ammo.

Wiki maintains a list of fatal wolf attacks at
List of wolf attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Famous attacks/man eaters include:
The Beast of Gevaudan which killed at least a hundred people over three years and attacked around 200.

The wolf of Ansbach in Germany, unknown number of victims, wolf was dressed up as a man once dead and hanged.

The wolf of Gysinge in Swedent that ate 12 children in 1820.

Wolf of Sarlat - attacked only grown men

Wolf of Soissons which attacked 18, killed four

Wolves of Ashta in India...pack killed 17 children in mid 80s

Wolves of Hazaribagh in India killed 13 children in 1981

Wolves of Paris...ate about 40 people in 1450

Wolves of Perigrod...pack of man eaters in France that ate somewhere close to 20 people

And from 2013, Wolf attacks lead to state of emergency in Russia's Siberia region - Telegraph, a veritable war on wolves in Siberia. Some accounts claimed a town was virtually besieged by wolves and that at least two helicopter gunships were put up to shoot the wolves. Russian media sources were claiming a super pack of 400 wolves and that six foot and 200 pound wolves were being taken.

Poaching would entail the taking of game in violation of hunting regulations or specific protections. U.S. law has long recognized an exemption for self defense and defense of human life. Despite the efforts of PETA, human life still trumps animal life. Thus a legitimate self defense shooting is not poaching.

It may be difficult to ask a dead wolf what its intent was or whether it was truly coming right for the shooter. Mama wolf would likely say that he was just a puppy and about to turn his life around etc...

I do not doubt that wolf attacks on humans are currently rare in North America. Indian tribes adopted the use of firearms rapidly, and wolves learned to avoid guns rapidly. The Indians had guns by the time anyone came around to write down some of their folklore. Pre introduction of firearms, there seems to be an oral history in some areas that wolves were dangerous predators.

Though I suppose they are no worse than the large carnivorous feral pigs in Southern states and the odd errant alligator in the yard.

I'm not going to copy your whole post, as it's a bit long. But I'd like to point out a couple of things:

The Russian report states:" This year naturalists say a shortage of the wolves' traditional pretty – especially blue hares – has seen vast numbers of the hungry animals migrating from their mountainous hunting grounds to central parts of the republic." Also, " Wolves usually hunt in small groups of just six or seven, and naturalists believe only a serious failure of the usual food supply could have brought such a large pack together to tackle larger prey." This is not a normal situation. After the Civil War, skunks were one of the most feared animals in the West and South because of the very high incidence of rabies. Bodies brought skunks together and rabies was very easily transmitted (as well as foxes, btw)

The key word is "legitimate" with regard to poaching. Anyone can "claim" self defense. The ESA also states that the culprit must "knowingly" violate the Act. "Shoot, shovel, and shut-up" as advocated above certainly implies a knowledge of guilt. I don't think you mean to argue that intentionally shooting a wolf and burying it so as to prevent detection isn't poaching.

As I explained, there are circumstances to explain wolf attacks in Europe. Massive attacks would certainly indicate aberration: famine, rabies, etc.

The case in Ontario (I read the autopsy report and concur with Dr Stephen Herrero that the attacker was a bear) was a case of wolves scavenging a dead body. I also saw photos of the wolves taken earlier in the day and they were not displaying threat behavior. Many of the cases listed also could be.

Also, wolves in India are thedhole and not timber or gray wolves. Different species.

I'm not arguing wolves have not killed people-it is likely they have and it went unreported. But the majority of attacks could easily be scavenging of dead bodies.

Oh, BTW "38 AP" ammo?

That's gotta be as good as ---- on a boar!

I never tried it, as it went for over a dollar a round in the mid 90s. It somehow escaped ATF prohibition because of its composition. Karwan claimed it was surprisingly impressive, but I don't recall if he showed photos of gelatin results or not. I think it is no longer available in the United States.

I have some FMJ somewhere in my collection and I kinda remember seeing some steel jacketed (WWII?) but nothing that was truly "AP"==that's a first for me!

Norma made an "Alaskan load" for a while. Round-nosed, 220 gr 30-06, long "pencil bullet" with a steel jacketed bullet. A magnet would pick them up. My brother stole them and shot them before I could try them on pigs.

From a quick search, I guess Norma discontinued several heavy-for-caliber loads in the Alaskan line.

Indian wolf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


India has both wolves and dholes!

Read this link and scroll down to the part about human-wolf interactions. It makes it very clear that wolves in India are a serious danger and have eaten people. A lot of them! And more in Iran.

Kipling mentioned wolves in India, and them not being the same as dholes. Remember, The Jungle Book? Mowgli was supposedly raised by wolves!

I have the fullest respect for Bear Bio and he contributes a LOT to this board. I hope he will forgive my differing with him on this point. It isn't personal. I'm just trying the get the Indian wolf question answered accurately.

T-Stqar: Was it the dholes that were threatening the wolf pack; Mowgli led them on a chase across a wild bees nest and into a river? He was first and was covered in onion that deterred the bees, but they were aroused when the dholes ran through their nesting area. I don't remember the name of the tale and don't have The Jungle Book in my Kipling collection.