Feeling uneasy at range today.

Its a tough call, but Muslims (or anyone who looks Middle Eastern) will be a lot better off and better accepted in the U.S. if they acknowledge that we have a right to be suspicious and concerned. While not all Muslims are terrorists, pretty much all terrorists have been Muslim. I think that when peaceful American Muslims start being more open in their criticism of extremist elements in their community, when we read about Muslims coming to authorities with information about someone preaching jihad or hatred of America in their mosque, and see CAIR more concerned with showing that they are loyal Americans instead of apologists for radical Muslims, then the average Muslim will be treated with less suspicion and concern.

Profiling is rational. We should be screening Muslim young men from countries where jihad is popular much more thoroughly than an elderly Swedish woman coming to the U.S. as a tourist. But that said, profiling where it is used to harass or worse of innocent people is just not acceptable. I have an adopted 21 year old son who is African American. While he had some trouble earlier in his life, he is working full time and looking for an apartment with his fiance and planning to have a family. Yet he has been through several incidents with law enforcement where it is clear his only offense was "driving while black". We have to find a way to be vigilant without violating the rights we value as Americans.

Interesting comments. First off he wasn't doing anything illegal to report. His demeanor which was really sketchy (regardless of his appearance) was what really caught my attention. Of course it is almost impossible to articulate demeanor in writing. I did notice that the store had video and they require and enter drivers license info into their database. In my 29yr career I dealt with and observed a tremendous amount of odd and sketchy people, I am not paranoid just way more observant than most. It is just sad that you have to run that mental checklist in your mind because of what's going on in this world. Of course I did nothing to impede on his rights nor did several others who were in the immediate area that were obviously noticing him.

Blowncar said:

Feeling uneasy at range today...

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There are a lot of people who can make me feel uneasy at a range... and when they do, I simply pack up and leave. Doesn't matter what color they are, how they are dressed or what accents or language they are speaking. If there is anything unusual, suspicious, illegal or unsafe about their conduct, I'm outta there.

Arik said:

...

Don't you need proper cause for all that? Skin color, accent and guns are all legal. If a black guy came in wearing baggy pants and an oversized shirt, talking ghetto would you do the same? Should you ask him his religion? Would you let a guy with a shaved head and Swastika tattoos rent a gun? ...


Don't get me wrong I understand where your coming from but the guy didn't do anything illegal and he could very well not even be middle eastern. ...

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I get your question. The simple answer is no, as a police officer, you don't need probable cause to ask someone to talk to you. All they have to do is say no. But also, in this case, you are thinking like a patrol person, and not an investigator. You could ask the individual to talk to you, and they could say "buzz off" and that ends it. (But they might talk to you, and so you would try to find out what you can. There would be nothing to sue you for, as you asked to talk to them and they consented.) But the better tactic here is to simply find out who the person is, and do a little intel. Attempt to determine if there is anything worth investigating.

As to "If a black guy came in wearing baggy pants and an oversized shirt, talking ghetto would you do the same?" To be perfectly honest, I just might. It depends on many things outside the scope of the original post.

So to get back to the issue here, the OP said that the young man appeared "middle eastern." This returns us to the issue of "if you see something, say something." I believe, there needs to be an acute awareness at the moment of the possibility of Muslim involvement in activity that might be related to terrorism. And in this scenario, that is why I would have taken some sort of action.

"Would you let a guy with a shaved head and Swastika tattoos rent a gun?" Just to say - not my call. I don't run the range.

Mainsail said:

Terrorists usually don't go to the range to learn how to shoot, they go to practice what they learned in terrorist training camps. ...

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I get your point, but that is the problem. You are absolutely mistaken.

Our problem in the US right now (not withstanding illegal immigration and the idea of admitting Syrian refugees by the thousands) is the problem/threat of self-radicalized individuals. These are people who have probably never left the United States. As in the case of the San Bernardino shooting and the Chattanooga shooting they are probably US citizens! So despite all the newsreel footage of terrorist recruits running around in the desert shooting AK's, that isn't what is happening.

They have probably never left the US. The bulk of their tactical and firearms knowledge/training is probably from video games, airsoft and paintball. What actual experience they can get, they do get at local ranges. It may be their only source of actual firearms experience. The San Bernardino shooters both practiced at local ranges (although as jihadists who actually traveled overseas, some of their training could have certainly come while they were abroad.)

TTSH said:

There are a lot of people who can make me feel uneasy at a range... and when they do, I simply pack up and leave. Doesn't matter what color they are, how they are dressed or what accents or language they are speaking. If there is anything unusual, suspicious, illegal or unsafe about their conduct, I'm outta there.

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I don't blame you.

Do you say anything to anyone?

ladder13 said:

I saw a story the other day about a "Muslim looking"(her words) woman who went into a Dicks Sporting Goods somewhere in Cali, bought 8 boxes of .223, and the clerk called the police. She's planning a lawsuit.

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Over what? Was she offended? Can't sue anyone for that (or I guess I'd be sued several times for this thread alone.)

I'd like to know exactly what happened in that case and which elements of the event led to her suing. I'm aware we live in an extremely litigious society, but I just can't see what basis she'd have for filing suit. (But then again, I am not an attorney!)

10mmauto said:

I don't blame you. Do you say anything to anyone?

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No, I haven't felt the need to complain so far. My own threshold for what I consider a safe & secure range experience is really quite low. When I recently saw an old guy signing in at my indoor range who I wouldn't have trusted shooting next to me, I just left. He may have been the safest shooter in the entire free world, but the dude's slowness & unsteadiness made me uncomfortable.

Same with shooting next to a family with young children. No matter how safe they may be, I'm outta there.

And same when I know a first time noob lesson is about to take place in the lane right next to me. Time for me to catch a cup of coffee.

First of all, I apologize for so many individual posts, but I can't get this multi-quote feature to work. I've tried three browsers (Chrome, Firefox and Safari) and I've signed out and back in, but nothing seems to work. But this should be my last one....

I think the original post is clearly an issue that begs the question "if you see something, should you say something?"

The problem with this is (as many of you have pointed out) is that it is not that simple. It is a two part question.

Part 1: "If you see something..."
See what? Is what the OP wrote suspicious? Is what Arik or Ladder13 wrote later suspicious? Under what circumstances? What is it exactly that you have to see before you decide to say something?

Unfortunately, in these current times, that something is "suspicious" or "questionable" activity by individuals who might be Muslim. Sorry. That is not politically correct. That may be considered profiling. But the fact is, it was not Christian pensioners, or guys "wearing baggy pants and an oversized shirt, talking ghetto" or Jewish teenagers that committed the terror attacks in Paris, or San Bernardino or Chattanooga. It was "military-aged" (read young, teenage to late 20's, early 30's), male and female, Muslims.

Of course, I've further muddied the waters with this definition because I used the terms "suspicious" or "questionable." No one said this was easy!

Part 2: "...say something."
Fortunately, this is the easy part. Once you've determined that you saw something that fits the definition of part one (being judicious about not letting political correctness cloud your judgement) just say something to the proper authority. Complaining to the range manager doesn't help - unless he/she of course, in turn, determines for themselves that what you reported fit the definition of part one, and then decides themselves to report it as described in part 2! The report needs to be made to someone who has the duty, tools and training to properly triage and vet the information. Local PD, county PD/Sheriff, state PD, ICE/HSI, the Bureau, a JTTF, a friend in LE!

With this said, a question something like this will inevitably arise, "Ok, I saw two young guys (teenage to mid-twenties) wearing hoodies (race undetermined) meet late at night in the far corner of the mall parking lot by a single car. It looked like something was exchanged by hand, one kid left, and then returned about ten minutes later in another car. Both trunks were opened, something was exchanged between the trunks, and then both cars left the area, going in separate directions. One drove past me, and I got the license plate. Should I report it?"

I only bring this up, because clearly there is reasonable suspicion of some type of criminal activity, but it is probably not related to terrorism. Is it any different? My answer is no. Use the same generic definitions - part 1: did you see something suspicious? If you have enough training, experience and/or common sense to realize that you did, then yes - you did. Part 2: - should I say something to the proper authority? As in the example discussing terrorism, I say yes you should. But this brings up the elephant in the room.

As a civilian, but more importantly to this discussion, as a citizen, is it your DUTY to report in either case?

To end this overly long post, I'll simply say that in my opinion, I can understand anyone who says that in the SECOND case, they would argue that they do not have a duty or ethical responsibility to do anything. But in the first case, I believe that it is clear that as a citizen - you DO have the responsibility to say something.

Jimmy's Opinion:
"Paranoid" and a "mite suspicious" is ok in today's world.
Never take anything for granite
all ways be in code yellow (never in white).
***Remembering the above is a good way for a young cop to go home alive at shift's end and retire at the career's end.

Career: 1955-2007

Remember the neighbor of the SB shooters saw things that bothered her but didn't want to be a profiler and told no one.
You have to go with your gut. Days are different now and looking or acting in a strange way may just mean something more than just...you are strange.
It's not a condition we've asked for but its one we're living now.
I would temper my concern and response to what it is that's bothering me about someone. May do nothing other than observe, may tell someone in authority if I feel its warranted.
There's no clear answer that's going to cover everything.
I will say that being politically correct will not enter my mind, though.

I prefer 5.56 over 223 myself, regards Ernie

In my small world we have no indoor range only a local private club but should I observed a similar situation regardless of where it is I would write down the specific information and drop it off at the local police or sheriffs department….I know the local Chief and the Sheriff so it is not a issue passing the info on to someone.

Just give it to them, tell the story and say "here it is I am not making accusation or complaint, do with it as you will", maybe someone there will be thoughtful enough to simply stick it in a cubbyhole for future reference.

Perhaps what you turn over to them could be valuable information in an ongoing investigation. If they don’t want it they can throw it away but my concern is over once I give it to them.

terry

ladder13 said:

I saw a story the other day about a "Muslim looking"(her words) woman who went into a Dicks Sporting Goods somewhere in Cali, bought 8 boxes of .223, and the clerk called the police. She's planning a lawsuit.

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It seems if certain people wear their feelings on their sleeves, well too bad. If it were me? I'd simply walk away and go to Walmart and buy that ammo. SOME people are just looking for any excuse to sue another---all for that mighty dollar.

I'd say that a Middle Eastern person, quite possibly an American citizen, in the political climate of today, in this country, is in way more danger from redneck Americans, than we are from them. You don't know if they were Muslim, and you certainly don't know if they were in any way radicals. Would you know if they were Indian instead? There have been Muslims in our society since it was founded, with really no problems until 9/11, by radicals who really just use religion for an excuse for their hatred. I know that if I looked like one of them, I'd damn sure be armed, and not with just a shotgun or deer rifle. Especially if I read threads like this. We had attitudes like this around 1900 about Italians and Irish immigrants, who were widely thought to be anarchists. Just because they look Middle Eastern, doesn't mean they just got off the plane from Syria.

Well that guy would fit in at the indoor public range I go to. I won't even go there on weekends. Weird people freak me out. BOOGA BOOGA!

David Steinberg used to do a comedy skit where he was a ......never mind. You're probably to young.....

Engine 21 said:

Think about it....a Muslim "looking" woman buying multiple boxes of .223 ammunition. What comes to mind is the obvious "Red Flag" paranoia - it is not the norm. She is purchasing a fair amount of ammunition for what? To make a statement, to challenge anyone who questions her, to promote a lawsuit for profiling or is she just buying ammunition for the range?

You don't know her motives but she has to know it does cause suspicion in this day and age.

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I'll place my bet on the lawsuit factor. Just look at what happened with that kid who ''built'' that clock.........

arjay said:

Maybe all the paranoia and hyperbole have made her nervous and she's exercising her right to self defense?

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Maybe the kid that cried WOLF, cried it to many times? I was in Heidelberg, Germany when the USS Cole was attacked, I saw the attitude towards Amis by some from the middle east, and it wasn't a good attitude either. The next day I was in Frankfurt waiting for my flight back here, and was being watched by a tall arab ''gentleman.'' To make a long story short, he was watching me and I knew it but didn't let on. After leaving a tourist trap shop, left and was going to head upstairs. Well, a funny thing happened, he didn't see a squad of armed German soldiers and almost walked into one as he was too busy watching me. He saw the soldiers at the last moment and went away as fast as possible. The soldiers were grinning and I walked up to them trying my limited German. One asked me if I knew that guy was watching me? I said I'd noticed he was for at least 15 minutes. The German asked me what I'd do if the guy tried something? I grinned and opened a huge leather bag I had that had four or five bier steins in it. I simply said I'd have bashed his head in. They laughed. I have kept in touch with one of these soldiers since Oct 15th 2000. Ulrich is a good friend, and who is still serving with the Gebirgejagers. The Germans feel like most of us on this subject.

They trained Arabs to shoot at the high rock gun club range decades ago till they were caught. Great right in my backyard.

the ringo kid said:

It seems if certain people wear their feelings on their sleeves, well too bad. If it were me? I'd simply walk away and go to Walmart and buy that ammo. SOME people are just looking for any excuse to sue another---all for that mighty dollar.

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Or just order online.