It seems to be better than nothing? I guess?

Todd Orr | Facebook

When the adrenaline wears off he's probably going to be in one hell of a lot of hurt...

Glad he's gonna be OK. Good reason to carry a real weapon....of course there's certain ones (usual suspects) on here that will probably say he got what he deserved and complain that he harmed the poor bear by spraying pepper in it's eyes.

Don

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Laus Deo! <><

The guy's lucky to be alive, especially after being attacked twice. If that bear had chomped down harder on his head, he'd never have survived. And unless he's really quick on the draw and a dead shot, I'm not sure a sidearm would have done any good.

Bear spray, gun? Nothing is a sure thing when it comes to bears.
The absolute best defense is avoidance.

Sometimes you are just in the wrong place at the wrong time and you get bit by a bear.

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Carpriver.

I never sprayed a bear but I know it works on German Sheppards.

Just like so many other times over the course of a person's life. Fate? Karma? Predestination? God's will? Who knows? And what difference does it make?

Whatever the reason, bad stuff happens to people, and all the "preparedness" in the world ain't gonna stop it from happening.

Statistically, bear spray still works better than firearms by about 30% (in about 1000 actual attacks on all 3 species in North America--I understand it also works on European and Asian bears but there's not a lot of data). I've used the weaker dog spray on two German Shorthairs and got some in my face by accident==and that's a lot weaker.

Bears cannot crush a skull as their jaws don't open wide enough==they just scrape all the scalp off. (Or bite your face off!) If they could get your head in, they might be able to, although wolves (and dogs) have stronger jaws, power wise.

All I know is that lead can be fatal, spray can't.

Two rules when in bear country....

1) Never travel alone, bring a friend...

2) Make sure you can outrun your friend.

I feel that man had a good plan, knew what to do and stuck to it and is alive today because of his knowledge and courage.

Bears are at their best in a zoo.

Attached Images

Bearsign.jpg (116.7 KB, 42 views)

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Foster Positivity.

On the other current bear thread, on one of the web sites posted on it, advocated using bear spray to ward off bears, but then went on to say that in 56% of all maulings of humans by bears, bear spray was used. They did not list how often the usage of firearms failed in preventing loss of life & injury. So they admit that the spray failed more than one half of the time.

In the same thread, one guy who was attacked (the OP), chose to use his bear spray instead of his firearm & suffered serious injuries.

No one will know if he would have been able to drop the bear & stop the attack if he had wisely used his firearm instead of the spray... but this was another clear instance of the spray failing.

If he had relied on his handgun, he would have at least had a chance...like the game warden did who was forced to use his revolver to fight off & kill a bear they were relocating. The bear was killed by what appeared to be a S&W mod 66 .357 mag., while it was attacking the warden.

I'd rather take a chance on using a firearm than hoping that what's really nothing more than a large can of Mace will deter an animal bent on seriously harming me or those I am with.

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

Reminds me of the old joke:

Park Ranger: "We advise that all hikers attach small bells to their packs and carry a large can of pepper spray. The bells will warn any bears of your approach, and the pepper spray can be used if attacked. You should also keep an eye out for bear scat, so you can determine if black bear or grizzly bear are in the area.

Concerned Hiker: "How can we tell the difference in black bear and grizzly bear scat?"

Park Ranger: "Well that's easy. Black bear scat is darker and has small berry seeds in it. Grizzly bear scat will have small bells in it and smell like pepper spray."

VERY old joke!

From what I can gather, I guess it just depends. Like the use of pepper spray against criminal assailants, sometimes, for some unknown reason, it just doesn't work. Just makes 'em mad.

For example, one of our neighbors has a 6-month old Border Collie pup that loves to chase cars. The neighbor asked me if I knew how to get him to stop.

"It's fairly easy," I said. "Go down to Sportsman's Warehouse and buy the heavy duty bear spray. It's gonna cost about forty-five bucks, but it's worth it. Be sure you get the real heavy duty stuff...not the little canister that your wife keeps on her key chain. Then, get in the car and drive by your place so the dog will give chase. Then have one of the passengers armed with the bear spray and spray the heck out of the dog, making sure you get him in the mucous membranes...eyes, nose. You'll probably have to do it about two or three different times, but it works."

Well, they tried it. Sure enough, ol' Hank gave chase and they nailed him good right in the face. He stopped, shook his head a few times, tried to rub it off...but then he was okay and ready to give chase again.

Like I said, for some unknown reason, it seems to effect some differently than others.

As the poor guy said, I guess it's better than nothing. Still, whenever I'm in bear country, I take a handgun in .45 Colt and a stubby rifle in the same caliber, both loaded with fairly substantial loads (300 grn. J.F.N. 1325 F.P.S.).

Even with that, though, I still keep my fingers crossed and pray that I don't have an encounter.

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Pack light and cinch tight.

There are numerous articles (scientific papers) that analyze firearms and bear spray. One examined almost 1000 attacks (author: Stephen Herrero) by three species of bears (polar, grizzly/brown and black).

See:

"Bear Attacks" (1985) (Stephen Herrero)

"Fatal attacks by American black bear on people: 1900–2009" (Herrero, et al)

" Efficacy of Firearms for Bear Deterrence in Alaska"
TOM S. SMITH · STEPHEN HERRERO · CALI STRONG LAYTON · · KATHRYN R. JOHNSON

"Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska"
TOM S. SMITH · STEPHEN HERRERO · TERRY D. DEBRUYN · JAMES M. WILDER

"From the Field: Brown bear habituation to people—safety, risks, and benefits"
Stephen Herrero · Tom Smith · Terry D. DeBruyn · [...] · Colleen A. Matt

" Injury to People Inflicted by Black, Grizzly or Polar Bears: Recent Trends and New Insights"
Stephen Herrero · Susan Fleck

You can get copies of most of these (and more) at:
Stephen Herrero - Publications

Also, the warden who shot the bear was injured.

But if the warden who was injured had not used his revolver... it is a certainty that his injuries would have been worse, if not fatal. He managed to kill the bear as it was chewing on him.

Folks have bled out in a short amount of time when arteries have been torn open. I was surprised that they did not have someone assigned to protect him with a large bore rifle or shotgun with slugs. My guess is that in the future they will have..

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

When out and about in the tall and un-cut.......

I take my chance encounters with bears serious.

In addition to a heavy loaded 44 revolver, I carry this short rifle

loaded 'for bear' with some heavy Barnes bullets. It's jest purty handy.
If my horse smells bear or I do, I just slide it out of the scabbard and carry it
across the swells of my saddle. He who doesn't respect a bear, may well end up in a fix for sure.




.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I'd like to know how many who used bear spray, in the statistic you cited...employed it properly? I'd bet that saying you simply sprayed it....maybe into the wind, or when the bear was still too far away. Certainly skews the data.

And regarding the Montana FWP Warden who killed the bear with his issued M-66 four incher. He was very lucky. His first five shots (125 JHP's) did little damage...insufficient penetration. His last shot went in the lower jaw of the bear and into the spine IIRC.

Very wisely said from someone who's been there, done that, and got the t-shirt.

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Pack light and cinch tight.

About all I can say is that if you get close enough to a bear, black or brown, to use pepper spray you are a better man than I.

My hats off to you sir......

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Hipcocked45

After reading threads about .22s taking down 1,500lb man-eating grizzly bears, I'm expecting to see some interesting posts about pepper spray.

I feel that if those wardens had tied that bear trap down into the bed of the pickup it would not have been necessary to kill the bear and the warden would not have been injured.

It is pretty easy for humans to teach cub bears that humans are not fun to play with, but SPCA and Game and Fish would probably go nuts if they knew about it.

I have no doubt that an angry bear can climb up into the bed of a truck if it wants to... yup the trap should have been secured to the bed... but a determined bear can do a lot... & I want firepower to help.. not just a big can of mace...

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

I had seen this last week as a friend forwarded it to me.

I would not consider this a testament as to how Bear spray helps
in any way shape or form. If you asked the guy who was attacked
if he'd rather have a gun or some spray the next time he runs into
a sow with cubs i'll bet he would opt for the gun.
He stated he saw them at 80 yards. That gives ample time to take
steady aim and possibly get off more than one shot as the Bear charges.

He was simply at the wrong place at the wrong time. Could have
happened to anybody. The difference is in how your prepare yourself
for just such an encounter. For ME it will not be with an aerosol can.


Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

In many places. shooting at 80 yards would be considered poaching and not defense of life.

If it's charging at 80 or 800 yards bud, i'll take my chances.

If you know Bears like you say you do then you know how
quickly a Bear can cover that distance.


Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

For some reason I think your job is bears?? If a grizzly can travel 30 mph, could he not cover 80 yards in 5 to 6 seconds? That is not much time if he is charging, right?

Bears, Mtn Lions, wolves and dog packs from town on holiday all are dangerous.

I love my pre 64 270's, I loved Jack O'Connors writing but for tiptoeing thru bear country I think a lever throwing some of Elmers Hard cast 500 grainers in an 1886 like Mule Packers or a Marlin guide gun is one I'd get before I headed for bear trails. Mule Packer no offense but I think I want a shotgun style pad on mine.

I have no doubt my 300's WBY and Win with some 220 grainers would do the trick but bolt guns are slow.

Walking in Bear country with a Pit Bull trained to heel would be my only reason for wanting one. But then it'd be my luck to get the DNA defective one that was a devout coward......

For the record, BearBio is a very seasoned and senior wildlife biologist. He knows bears very well indeed.

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Oh well, what the hell.

FWIW: I have seen tapes of bears "cruisin" along at 35, then take off. I have also been (bluff) charged once, so I have a good idea of how fast a bear can run. BUT, running at 30 mph is different from starting at a dead stop!

A bear at 80 yards doesn't mean I am standing there with my mouth open! Yes, I'd have my defense (spray or gun) out and pointed, if not aimed!

I was at a meeting/seminar and "palled around" with a Canadian Forest Service Biologist for several days. He told me the most significant fact, in his opinion, was that most Canadian bear victims (deceased) had rifles on their shoulders!

Thanks for the compliments, Shouldazagged, but I broke both ankles about six years ago while goose-hunting. Then, in July, I broke my kneecap while fishing in Alaska. Since I am closer to 70 than 60, I don't get out in the field much (at least at work). Hope to work my way back into (easy) elk hunting and maybe train another short-hair when I retire in 3 more years.

Serious question .... in your opinion, do think this could be because most of those folks were hunting at the time?

That would just seem logical to me.

Don

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Laus Deo! <><

I really don't know. His area was Alberta. He had worked in BC, also. We did discuss that Canadians were restricted because of laws pertaining to handguns. I know, statistically, most Canadian fatal bear attacks are black bears, which would indicate predatory attacks.

Another thought/question.........would the bears recognize a rifle as a weapon and wait until it was slung? Crows will learn the difference between a rifle and a stick. Ground squirrels will use different calls for men with a gun rather than a man without.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most US fatal bear attacks are black bears also.

In regards to bears recognizing a rifle as a weapon like crows....I don't know. I do know that crows are "very" intelligent and have much better eyesight than a bear.

Ground squirrels?? Seems that the tree squirrels can tell when I'm squirrel hunting as opposed to when I'm not.

However tree squirrels also seem to know when I'm deer hunting, even though I'm also carrying a rifle ..... those little rascals will come right-up to me. They also seem to take great pleasure in trying to sound like a deer....I'm convinced they are just "messing" with me.

Don

Attached Images

Squirrel sounds like a Deer.jpg (43.4 KB, 26 views)

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Laus Deo! <><

A good friend who traveled bear country a lot always had a short hair with him wearing a collar with tags that tinkled when he ran. He traveled a large circle around us. He loved to harass a bear by circling and barking, drove the bears nuts and they simply wanted out of there, the size of the bear did not seem to matter, although we did not see all the bears we think he was fooling with. Got to watch him three times.

What roll do you feel a dog could play when humans simply have a well trained dog with you in bear country? Has this been considered in the research?

I haven't done any clinical or empirical research into this, but after packing into wilderness areas with a pack string for almost thirty years, I have formulated a couple of strong opinions.

First, I firmly believe that very few bears are really "on the prod" and want to mix it up with humans. Most of the encounters I've had were when we accidentally encountered them, and it seemed that the first thing they wanted to do was to avoid us.

Also, I should probably insert that those years that I was packing were in one of the most populated black bear areas in the lower forty-eight. It was exceptionally rare when we didn't run across at least one black bear during a pack trip.

Second, (and this seems to be the consensus with most of my fellow packers, too) a good yappy dog in camp seems to be one of the best bear deterrents that we have found over the years.

Most of the packers with whom I associated seemed to favor a stock dog of some sort, i.e. Border collies, Kelpies, Australian Blue Heelers, etc.....dogs that were athletic, intelligent, had plenty of guts, and weren't afraid to bark their heads off if a bear came into camp.

These little dogs would usually run ahead of the pack string when on the trail, making noise, leaving scent, etc.

Usually, if I happened to spot a bear in the distance, it was pretty obvious that he was well aware of the pack string coming down the trail and he was doing his best to put as much distance between us as possible.

Again, this is just my experience, so take it with the proverbial grain of salt.

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Pack light and cinch tight.

Thank you Sir!

In general, I agree with Mule Packer. However, a poorly trained dog could bring a PO'd bear right back to you! I would agree that the bears you would see would be leery of a man with a pack string. The predatory black bears (and polar bears, I assume) would stay out of sight. Yes, I think they would be in the minority.

Most fatal attacks are caused by black bears==especially prime males. A griz (esp. a female) wants to eliminate a threat. She does that the "bestest and fastest" way she can and, when the threat is "neutralized", she moves on. Of course, to a bear, anything dead is food! A black bear male is predatory==looking for a meal!

BTW: I have used short-hairs for pig hunting and they are crazy. My girl got her fannie kicked by a big tom turkey one spring!

I couldn't agree more!

I think that's probably why the guys I hung around with usually had a stock-type dog along...easy to train, very obedient, and, (now, I'm not sure if this is because they have an over-abundance of guts or an under-abundance of good sense) they will rat-pack a fire-breathing, snot-blowing 1800-pound bull and keep him at bay, dodging and weaving, until the thing gives up and goes where you want him to go.

When a bear does happen to inadvertently wander into camp, it sounds like the Battle of Armageddon is breaking loose. There is absolutely no doubt in your mind as to what is wandering around your camp...plenty of time to get your firearm ready if needed. Usually, though, the amount of ruckus that two or three cow dogs can cause is enough to drive just about anything to the opposite side of the designated wilderness area.

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Pack light and cinch tight.

One of the first lessons for a stock dog is not to hide behind you!! An easy lesson to teach and once they get the idea they will never do it again.

I cannot remember the last time I went hunting without a dog, for many reasons.

Never questioned that or his credentials.

I respect his opinion but i'll still be packing a gun
in Bear country. And if charged i would take appropriate
action. You see, i don't know if a Bear is simply (Bluff Charging)
or not and i really don't believe anyone who says they do.
These are Wild animals. They don't read the books.
By the time you decide if the charge is real or not you could
be lunchmeat.
It's simply Not the choice i will be making.

To each his own. Stay safe!!! to everyone in Bear country.


Chuck

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They hold no Quarter