WHAT HAPPENED TO THE POST OFFICE MOTTO??

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bearman49709 said:
Can you show me where you get this package is subsidized by mail info from.
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The postal rates are set by Congress at a level to cover all expenses incurred in delivery of the mail - a service which the USPS has a monopoly on. So the rates charged for mail delivery (postage rates) pay for the overhead. You know, trucks, jets, employees, buildings, keeping the lights on, etc. etc. etc.

Congress won't allow them to operate at a loss for more than a year or two. Whenever they do, Congress approves a rate hike for them - to make sure they continue covering their operating expenses. You and I have no alternative place to take or receive our mail - because they have a monopoly on it. So you want to mail a letter, you use the post office and pay their rates.

That is all well and good for the MAIL, but here's the rub: those same buildings, vehicles, and employees are also being used to deliver packages. Priority Mail and Priority Mail Express rates aren't controlled by Congress - because THAT side of the Postal Service is operated as an "independent" and "separate" "business" from the postal MAIL delivery.

That is why they can (and do) advertise and otherwise operate like any other business and compare themselves to their private companies that they are "competing" with.

The net result is that the "business" side is getting a lot of its expenses paid by the postal monopoly side. That amounts to a subsidy. In essence this puts an entity protected by the federal government and staffed by federal employees in subsidized competition with un-subsidized non-government private businesses - like UPS, FedEx, etc.
 
Watchdog said:
Semantics? Making false assertions and posting bogus "facts" doesn't even qualify as semantics.

Maybe semantics is what y'all call it out there where you live, but down here where I'm from, we have another word for it.
shocked.gif
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LOL, when someone gets something every time they ask for it, the end result is the same as if it were guaranteed. If Congress never denies them a rate increase, it is in effect a defacto guarantee. Sure Congress could deny them a rate increase - and add even more red ink to the federal deficit. But they don't. When the USPS asks them for a rate increase they get it.
 
BC38 said:
The postal rates are set by Congress at a level to cover all expenses incurred in delivery of the mail - a service which the USPS has a monopoly on. So the rates charged for mail delivery (postage rates) pay for the overhead. You know, trucks, jets, employees, buildings, keeping the lights on, etc. etc. etc.

Congress won't allow them to operate at a loss for more than a year or two. Whenever they do, Congress approves a rate hike for them - to make sure they continue covering their operating expenses. You and I have no alternative place to take or receive our mail - because they have a monopoly on it. So you want to mail a letter, you use the post office and pay their rates.

That is all well and good for the MAIL, but here's the rub: those same buildings, vehicles, and employees are also being used to deliver packages. Priority Mail and Priority Mail Express rates aren't controlled by Congress - because THAT side of the Postal Service is operated as an "independent" and "separate" "business" from the postal MAIL delivery.

That is why they can (and do) advertise and otherwise operate like any other business and compare themselves to their private companies that they are "competing" with.

The net result is that the "business" side is getting a lot of its expenses paid by the postal monopoly side. That amounts to a subsidy. In essence this puts an entity protected by the federal government and staffed by federal employees in subsidized competition with un-subsidized non-government private businesses - like UPS, FedEx, etc.
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I asked if you could show me where you get your info from knowing you could not.
So instead of spewing more BS why don't you just admit you have no idea what your talking about.

I forgot to add that USPS owns no " jets " nor any other aircraft.
 
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BC38 said:
Congress won't allow them to operate at a loss for more than a year or two.
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That is so completely false, it almost defies description.

I don't know where you're getting your information on the USPS, but you should find another source.

Or maybe you're just making this stuff up as you go along, I don't know.
 
ChuckS1 said:
It's been replaced with "You want me to work? I'm a Federal government employee!".
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Having spent 40 years as a Federal employee where me and my co-workers kept our men and women in uniform flying the best aircraft that could be had and flying them safely; my co-workers and I ask you to stuff you opinion in your pipe and smoke it out your butt.
 
Muss Muggins said:
Yeah, they are. Lots of misconceptions about that out in the zeitgeist . . .
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You're falling behind, my friend.
nono.gif
See Post #79.

But perhaps you're so caught up in this thread's mini-zeitgeist of today that you've already put yesterday's behind you. It's surprisingly easy to do, because the human brain can only absorb a limited amount of bad info.

DirtyAgileCirriped-size_restricted.gif
 
Watchdog said:
You're falling behind, my friend. See Post #79.

But perhaps you're so caught up in this thread's mini-zeitgeist of today that you've already put yesterday's behind you. It's surprisingly easy to do, because the human brain can only absorb a limited amount of bad info.
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I know. Some days it's hard to keep up, and since today is a snow day in the bootheel, with an inch or two of sleet and snow on the ground after temps in the 60's on Thursdays, I'm feelin' a little lazy. And you're right, so many mistakes to correct, so little time . . .
 
My apologies to watchdog and bearman49709, apparently my information wasn't up to date. The process I described isn't how it works anymore.

Instead by law they AUTOMATICALLY increase their rates based on the Consumer Price Index. So they no longer even go through that pesky process of asking - they can just raise their rates every year. However they still have the option of "requesting" that the rates be increased even MORE than the CPI by making the "request" to the Postal Regulatory Commission - who of course rubber stamps it.

I was also wrong about their debt. They actually are allowed to operate in the red and have done so for several years. Imagine that. An arm of the Federal government that DOESN'T run a deficit. How could I have been so naive? The most current projections are that the USPS will top 45 BILLION dollars in debt by the end of this year. Not too many private businesses would be allowed to continue doing business under those circumstances, but the Postal Service can and does.

Those pre-funded pension/healthcare payments that Muss was talking about? That is indeed a requirement that was placed on them - because they have their own "sweetheart" pension plan - kinda like Congress. They don't participate in the Social Security system the rest of us slobs are stuck with. Unfortunately for the people that are depending on that pension/benefits system, for a long time the USPS didn't sufficiently fund the plan. They consistently under-funded it until they reached a point where they had accumulated nearly 50 billion in "unfunded obligations" (a.k.a. more debt - in the form of benefits owed to the retired workers that the pension/benefits plan didn't have the money to pay - and had no way of earning the money to pay). So the obligation was place on them to pay 5.5 billion a year into the fund to make up the difference. This is the 100% funding provision was put into place to address that little problem. As for the burden that it puts on the USPS, in 2011 they were "excused" from making those payments due to being 8 billion in debt. I couldn't find info on whether they ever resumed making the payments or not, but since they have ended every year in the red since then, I would be very surprised if they have.


As I said before they have two "separate" sets of products. They call their monopoly on the regular mail the "market dominant products", and they call the package delivery side the "competetive products". They are supposed to be separate in all respects, but since the same vehicles, planes, facilities, and employees are delivering both the mail and packages, the monoply business supports the "competetive" business, any "separation" is just on paper.

And I almost forgot to add, you are correct bearman49709. USPS doesn't own any aircraft anymore. The planes with their colors and logos are contracted to the USPS by other airlines. Of course that doesn't change the fact that the same planes are carrying mail and packages further "mixing" the revenue streams.

Here are a few links for anyone who is interested in where this info comes from. There are lots more out there of course. This is just a sampling...

The Truth About The Post Office's Financial Mess

Postal Service Faces $100B in Debts and Unfunded Benefits

Postal Regulatory Commission - Wikipedia

http://www.upsmailinnovations.com/pdfs/How_Postal_Rates_Set.pdf

Site under maintenance | USPS Office of Inspector General

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Artic.../13/Postal-Service-Debt-Set-to-Hit-45-Billion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_postal_service
 
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Dude. You lost. Flip this flapjack off the griddle . . .

(PS: Social Security isn't and never was intended to be a pension. Poor planning by people made it their pension. Teachers in Missouri don't participate in SS either. Not sure how that particular fact is relevant anywhere. My grandmother survived on my grandfather's USPS pension until she was 94, for more years than my grandfather drew a USPS salary)

BC38 said:
My apologies to watchdog and bearman49709, apparently my information wasn't up to date. The process I described isn't how it works anymore.

Instead by law they AUTOMATICALLY increase their rates based on the Consumer Price Index. So they no longer even go through that pesky process of asking - they can just raise their rates every year. However they still have the option of "requesting" that the rates be increased even MORE than the CPI by making the "request" to the Postal Regulatory Commission - who of course rubber stamps it.

I was also wrong about their debt. They actually are allowed to operate in the red and have done so for several years. Imagine that. An arm of the Federal government that DOESN'T run a deficit. How could I have been so naive? The most current projections are that the USPS will top 45 BILLION dollars in debt by the end of this year. Not too many private businesses would be allowed to continue doing business under those circumstances, but the Postal Service can and does.

Those pre-funded pension/healthcare payments that Muss was talking about? That is indeed a requirement that was placed on them - because they have their own "sweetheart" pension plan - kinda like Congress. They don't participate in the Social Security system the rest of us slobs are stuck with. Unfortunately for the people that are depending on that pension/benefits system, for a long time the USPS didn't sufficiently fund the plan. They consistently under-funded it until they reached a point where they had accumulated nearly 50 billion in "unfunded obligations" (a.k.a. more debt - in the form of benefits owed to the retired workers that the pension/benefits plan didn't have the money to pay - and had no way of earning the money to pay). So the obligation was place on them to pay 5.5 billion a year into the fund to make up the difference. This is the 100% funding provision was put into place to address that little problem. As for the burden that it puts on the USPS, in 2011 they were "excused" from making those payments due to being 8 billion in debt. I couldn't find info on whether they ever resumed making the payments or not, but since they have ended every year in the red since then, I would be very surprised if they have.


As I said before they have two "separate" sets of products. They call their monopoly on the regular mail the "market dominant products", and they call the package delivery side the "competetive products". They are supposed to be separate in all respects, but since the same vehicles, planes, facilities, and employees are delivering both the mail and packages, the monoply business supports the "competetive" business, any "separation" is just on paper.

And I almost forgot to add, you are correct bearman49709. USPS doesn't own any aircraft anymore. The planes with their colors and logos are contracted to the USPS by other airlines. Of course that doesn't change the fact that the same planes are carrying mail and packages further "mixing" the revenue streams.

Here are a few links for anyone who is interested in where this info comes from. There are lots more out there of course. This is just a sampling...

The Truth About The Post Office's Financial Mess

Postal Service Faces $100B in Debts and Unfunded Benefits

Postal Regulatory Commission - Wikipedia

http://www.upsmailinnovations.com/pdfs/How_Postal_Rates_Set.pdf

Site under maintenance | USPS Office of Inspector General

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Artic.../13/Postal-Service-Debt-Set-to-Hit-45-Billion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_postal_service
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Muss Muggins said:
Dude. You lost. Flip this flapjack off the griddle . . .

(PS: Social Security isn't and never was intended to be a pension. Poor planning by people made it their pension. Teachers in Missouri don't participate in SS either. Not sure how that particular fact is relevant anywhere. My grandmother survived on my grandfather's USPS pension until she was 94, for more years than my grandfather drew a USPS salary)
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You're entitled to your opinion. I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong - and I was about a few things. I was also asked where my info came from so I posted some.

Seems like I recall you posting somewhere that YOU are also drawing a government pension. Now you say that your grandparents did too? How about your parents? Excuse me, but I think your bias may be showing. Could that be why you seem so quick to defend government agencies? Or maybe I'm confusing you with another member.

And since you brought up the question of relevance, how does your grandmother drawing a USPS pension - or how long she drew it - have any bearing on the topic at hand? Is that supposed to indicate some level of insider info or expertise or something?
 
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BC38 said:
Seems like I recall you posting somewhere that YOU are also drawing a government pension. Now you say that your grandparents did too? How about your parents? Excuse me, but I think your bias may be showing. Could that be why you seem so quick to defend government agencies? Or maybe I'm confusing you with another member.
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You may be confusing me with another member, but I am drawing a government pension. I'm working on being able to draw a second, not because I have to, but because I like working. My dad drew a Navy and local government pension, along with a private sector draw from a 401K, and my mother continues to draw all of those, along with a teacher pension. My comments about my grandmother were in response to your comments about the failed USPS pension plan, which from my experience is working quite well.

I'm quick to call out government when I think they're moving in the wrong direction, but I'm quicker to call out misinformation about the government, which is much more rampant. Most all of the links in your post support those arguing with you, not you.

That being said, I've spilled enough ink on this topic with little success. Whatever you may have in response will be duly noted . . .
 
Muss Muggins said:
You may be confusing me with another member, but I am drawing a government pension. I'm working on being able to draw a second, not because I have to, but because I like working. My dad drew a Navy and local government pension, along with a private sector draw from a 401K, and my mother continues to draw all of those, along with a teacher pension. My comments about my grandmother were in response to your comments about the failed USPS pension plan, which from my experience is working quite well.

I'm quick to call out government when I think they're moving in the wrong direction, but I'm quicker to call out misinformation about the government, which is much more rampant. Most all of the links in your post support those arguing with you, not you.

That being said, I've spilled enough ink on this topic with little success. Whatever you may have in response will be duly noted . . .
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I never said the USPS pension plan failed - only that it was seriously under-funded. They fact that they are still sending pensioners checks doesn't negate that fact. Social security is still issuing checks too, but we all know that system isn't even close to being solvent.

We can agree to disagree. Fair enough.
 
One thing I have noticed is that we don't get anywhere near the volume of junk mail that we used to get. Did the rates go up for that trash or did those guys just become internet spammers?
 
I just read that first class one ounce postage rates are going up to 50 cents in less than ten days. That will cost me nothing most likely. It's been two to three years since I used a first class letter stamp. Times, they is a changing!
 
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