FFL Transfers in Washington state

[runscott]

I have been trying to piece together how this works in Washington State, and I'm having a hard time finding answers by searching forums, googling or by asking FFLs.

A friend told me that when I purchase a gun I should call him first and he would connect me with a 'good' FFL. I had no idea what that meant, and still don't.

So I didn't call my friend, I bought a gun, they charged me $50 and held the gun for over three weeks. Up front they had given me a 'drop dead' day to pick up the gun, telling me that if they had not heard back on the background checks by then, that I could take the gun. At one point I called the gun shop about something else and they told me that the person I was asking to talk with was busy doing background checks !?!?!? When I finally picked up my gun I asked why they never got a call back on the background check, and a tap dance ensued - something about paperwork getting piled up, possibly mislaid, etc. I didn't push, but just took my gun and went home.

So when I bought my next revolver, I took it somewhere else for the FFL work, after first googling the WA state laws about state and federal background checks. My understanding was that after ten business days, if the FFL has not been called back about the background checks, you can pick up your gun. So tomorrow would be the 1st day after the ten business days, so I called to see if I could pick it up. The answer was "No, call back in ten days". ***? They told me that they didn't want to get in trouble with whoever was doing the check, by giving out a gun, then getting a call in five days telling them that the recipient was not legally able to own a gun. So why ten more days? Why not five? or a year?

I don't get it. It seems to me that no background checks are actually done in Washington State, but rather the FFL just sits back and waits a few weeks, then lets you take your gun. What questions should I be asking my third FFL before agreeing to have them handle my transfer?

Thanks.

[pawngal]

Does Washington use the federal NICS background check system or does the state have its own system? Or both?

Under the federal NICS system the FFL has the OPTION to transfer after 3 business days without having a a proceed.
But the FFL is not required to ever transfer if they do not receive a Proceed.

Your mention of 10 days makes me think it is a state deal.

[runscott]

Originally Posted by pawngal

Does Washington use the federal NICS background check system or does the state have its own system? Or both?

Both. I 'think' the FFL either does the state requirements check itself, checking various databases and making phone calls, OR they contact someone else who begins the checks. Neither FFL would say this, but my best guess is that they call someone who basically does nothing. Our state is consistently passing laws that they do not have the labor to support, and I'm fairly sure this is one of them.

Then after a few weeks the FFL does the Federal checks, which takes almost no time.

My reason for believing the above is that both FFLs told me that if I had my CPL to bring it in and they could get things done quickly. So until July of this year (due to new initiative that the Seattle voters forced on us), having a CPL allows the FFL to bypass the state checks and go straight to the Federal. Our new initiative will kill the CPL benefit and everyone will have to wait the same amount of time.

[runscott]

...and the CPL is another bag of worms. It's supposed to take a MAXIMUM of thirty days in Washington state, but that is probably really the minimum - I've been waiting three weeks so far. It seems logical to me that the FFL waits as long as possible on transfers, and the sheriff/police waits the maximum 30 days on CPLs, as an unwritten way to appease the voters and state/Seattle city governments by making it as difficult as possible for people to acquire firearms.

I suppose they think this will make people not buy firearms but it's having the exact opposite effect on me. It's more difficult to buy firearms today than it was five years ago, and the latest initiative has made it even more difficult. Given that the political leanings of Seattle aren't going to change, that tells me that five years from now it will be even more difficult, so I should probably make a list of every gun I ever dreamed of owning, and buy all of them ASAP.

[BC38]

Washington uses the federal NICS system, but handgun purchases also require filing a form with the sheriff of the county where the purchase is made.

The problem is if you get a DELAY rather than a PROCEED they are required to hold the gun for 10 days. After that they can release it to you. HOWEVER if they get a call a day or an hour or a week later indicating that the DELAY was changed to a DENIAL, then it all turns into a big hassle for them. So a lot of them are really cautious.

Does that happen? As I understand it, yes. Very rarely, but it does happen. The best advice I can offer is to fill in your SSN on the forms. It speeds up the process because the process has recently changed to check the SSN first and check the name second. Which is the reverse of what they used to do (check name first and SSN second).

If you have a common name, or are unlucky enough to have the same name as someone with a record, there may not be much you can do. Though like I said, putting your SSN on the form helps. You can also fill out a form and get issued Unique Personal Identification Number (UPIN) that is supposed to virtually eliminate all delays or denials.

A CPL only lets you take the gun home with you the same day IF the NICS check comes back with a PROCEED. In Spokane getting a CPL is about a 30 day process. Renewing it is pretty much instantaneous - they give you the card right then and there when you go to the police station as long as you still pass the NICS check. King/Peirce counties may be a bit different ane/or take a little longer - more likely due to higher volume of applications and their bias against the idea.

Personally, I've never experienced a delay. Although my first name is common as dirt, my middle and last names are both unusual enough that it is unlikely that there is or will be a prohibited person with my name.

[runscott]

Thank you. At this point there isn't anything I can do, as the super-cautious 2nd FFL has all three of my recent gun purchases, and they have already made it clear (very friendly conversation) that I won't be getting any of these guns anytime soon.

By the time I purchase another I will have a CPL. I will talk with my third FFL before having anything shipped to them - (your response has made it easier for me to figure out what questions to ask, so thanks) - and if they don't make me feel a bit more warm and fuzzy that they will at least follow-up for me if there is a delay, then I will go to a fourth, etc. At some point I might give up, change parties and buy a can of Mace, but for now I'm going to be hard-headed and insist on getting at least a fraction of my Constitutional rights.

Hey, it's Friday and I'm still not looking up at dirt!!!!

[runscott]

Originally Posted by BC38

Personally, I've never experienced a DELAY.

That may be because you are far enough away from Seattle that your FFL's and sheriff's offices are not concerned with upsetting anyone. I've heard that the counties far far away do not have as bad a time as we have in King and Pierce.

[BC38]

Originally Posted by runscott

That may be because you are far enough away from Seattle that your FFL's and sheriff's offices are not concerned with upsetting anyone. I've heard that the counties far far away do not have as bad a time as we have in King and Pierce.

Sounds at least theoretically possible. However, I've read about others on a local gun board who have experienced pretty much the same thing that you are.

So, I think it is more likely a mistaken ID thing - or actually more like a "less than crystal-clear" ID thing.

[Onomea]

A friend told me that when I purchase a gun I should call him first and he would connect me with a 'good' FFL. I had no idea what that meant, and still don't.

Why not talk to your friend?

[runscott]

Originally Posted by Onomea

Why not talk to your friend?

Unfortunately my friend is not very communicative. I have calls and emails in to him, but no response in months. A mutual friend will call me if he's in some sort of trouble, but he just doesn't communicate well. When I first told him I was buying a 686, he suggested we get together and go to the range. I waited a month after getting the gun before finally giving up on him and going out by myself. That probably sounds weird, but I had never fired a .357 and I have weak wrists - I was foolishly afraid that I might drop the gun or do something similarly foolish when firing it for the first time. It ended up being a non-issue, but I still haven't heard back from him.

Basically, it will be faster to wait a month for a gun than to wait two months for my friend to suggest an FFL that does more than fill out forms.

[cherrypointmarine]

Boy am I glad I live in Florida .My gun comes in to my FFL , she takes my DL and CWP and I fill out the ATF form . Once I give it back , she runs me through . It has NEVER taken more than 30 minutes before I am walking back out the door with my Smith . It usually about 10-15 minutes . I honestly feel sorry for you guys .

[BC38]

Originally Posted by cherrypointmarine

Boy am I glad I live in Florida .My gun comes in to my FFL , she takes my DL and CWP and I fill out the ATF form . Once I give it back , she runs me through . It has NEVER taken more than 30 minutes before I am walking back out the door with my Smith . It usually about 10-15 minutes . I honestly feel sorry for you guys .

No need to feel sorry for me. I've done two transfers in the last month and both took less than 30 minutes start to finish. With my CPL I was able to walk out with my purchase as well.
Though come July 1 a bunch of new regs are slated to go into effect and it may change. Time will tell and we will see...

[runscott]

Originally Posted by Onomea

Why not talk to your friend?

...If I had it to do over again, I would have made the 1.5 hour drive to his house before buying my first WA state gun, and waited for him to show up. He did emphasize how important a good FFL was, and I didn't listen.

[Kanewpadle]

I assume that you are buying used guns and having them transferred to you?

For handguns there up to a ten day wait if you don’t have a CPL. On the tenth day the FFL is supposed to deliver the gun to you.

Even if you have a CPL you could be DELAYED which means you won’t be leaving with the gun immediately.

What city are you in? The transfers at my friends gun shop are $30. And they are quick about it.

[runscott]

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

I assume that you are buying used guns and having them transferred to you?

For handguns there up to a ten day wait if you don’t have a CPL. On the tenth day the FFL is supposed to deliver the gun to you.

Even if you have a CPL you could be DELAYED which means you won’t be leaving with the gun immediately.

What city are you in? The transfers at my friends gun shop are $30. And they are quick about it.

I'm in Tacoma. The FLL claimed that it is their prerogative to hold the gun past the 10 business days, and they will hold it an additional 10 business days while the state continues to do nothing.

Edited to add: so, if my FFL has an indefinite wait on delivering my firearms, is it possible to transfer them to an FFL that is more proactive?

[Jim R]

Join the Washington Arms Collectors.
Here is a schedule for their events.
Show Schedule

Transfers are done for $10.00 and there is normally 4 or 5 FFLs at each show to choose from. They also do transfers off site for guns being shipped to you. I have a carry permit and it has never taken more that 15 minutes for any transfer, and this includes guns that I have shipped in.

[runscott]

Originally Posted by Jim R

Join the Washington Arms Collectors.
Here is a schedule for their events.
Show Schedule

Transfers are done for $10.00 and there is normally 4 or 5 FFLs at each show to choose from. They also do transfers off site for guns being shipped to you. I have a carry permit and it has never taken more that 15 minutes for any transfer, and this includes guns that I have shipped in.

Hi Jim, I have an application that I will be taking in as soon as I have my cpl (saves me $15). My sponsor has even filled out the back.

The issue at this point is three firearms with an indefinite wait. I have been stewing about this since talking with them yesterday.

[BC38]

Originally Posted by Jim R

Join the Washington Arms Collectors.
Here is a schedule for their events.
Show Schedule

Transfers are done for $10.00 and there is normally 4 or 5 FFLs at each show to choose from. They also do transfers off site for guns being shipped to you. I have a carry permit and it has never taken more that 15 minutes for any transfer, and this includes guns that I have shipped in.

I sure wish the WAC would expand over to the east side of the state. I'm sure there are LOTS of people here who would participate and go to the shows.

[deadin]

WAC has a dwindling membership and I hope this latest (1639) doesn't put the final nail in the coffin. They are getting so desperate that they have recently opened sales of firearms to non-members. I haven't heard if they are going to allow non-members to bring firearms for sale. If they do, it should make the shows more interesting to collectors. (Currently the shows seem to have been mostly dealers and wanna-be dealers.)

[runscott]

Originally Posted by deadin

WAC has a dwindling membership and I hope this latest (1639) doesn't put the final nail in the coffin. They are getting so desperate that they have recently opened sales of firearms to non-members. I haven't heard if they are going to allow non-members to bring firearms for sale. If they do, it should make the shows more interesting to collectors. (Currently the shows seem to have been mostly dealers and wanna-be dealers.)

To be fair, they claim that they are allowing sales to non-members as a result of the recent firearms initiative. But I'm sure dealers would also like to take advantage of the pre-July rush.

[Doug M.]

What you are describing is foreign to me - a CPL does take 30 days, or nearly so, most of the time. There are a lot of steps to that process, and your local LE agency is only a tiny part of it. Once you have one, the waiting period stuff goes away. As for those dealers, I would go somewhere else, like south to Lewis County, where you are less likely to be treated that way.

[deadin]

I can kind of understand where some of the dealers are coming from. I'm sure that they feel that there are State and Federal agents out there that are just waiting for them to screw up something and there goes their license.

[runscott]

Yes, the CPL is thirty days. The problem is that, given the new initiative, they are swamped and it is likely to take longer than that. Which means that my FFL has to process my guns without my having a CPL. Their policy is to not deliver firearms without the background check call-back. I just visited (30 minutes ago) the FFL who processed my last firearm back in October. He checked the file on my handgun and told me that he NEVER got the call-back (his policy is to deliver after 12 business days, which he did).

So what all this means is that my new FFL is unlikely to get the call-back, but won't hand over my firearm without it, the Federal paperwork expires after 30 days, and it's quite possible that I will not have my CPL before the Federal paperwork expires.

My old FFL also told me that beginning in July the CPL will not help short-cut the wait; however, all processing will be done in Olympia and should be much more efficient.

[BC38]

LOL, did you just use the words "Olympia" and "efficient" in the same sentence? You must not have had much dealings with our State government...

[runscott]

Originally Posted by BC38

LOL, did you just use the words "Olympia" and "efficient" in the same sentence? You must not have had much dealings with our State government...

You know, I was laughing as I typed that - I realize it makes no sense, but compared to how the background checks are currently being sandbagged...

I am about to take my 'curios & relics' application down to the post office - since I have only been buying antiques, it makes sense to bypass as much of this cr*p as possible.

[runscott]

Just got back from speaking with the current FFL owner. He was super-nice and gave me a great explanation of how things work, from his perspective. As I thought, he will wait until just before the 30-day expiration of the Federal paperwork, then call them. If he can't get approval when he calls, he will re-file the paperwork and the 30-day clock starts again. I was kind of aghast at this, but he said that if it happened again, he would find a way to get the gun to me.

All of this is moot, as the 30-day on my CPL will be Friday, so worst case the Federal paperwork expires and he re-files when I bring in my CPL.

Bad, bad news for those who do not have CPLs, thinking they will never carry so why get one.

[Golddollar]

Originally Posted by deadin

I can kind of understand where some of the dealers are coming from. I'm sure that they feel that there are State and Federal agents out there that are just waiting for them to screw up something and there goes their license.

My honorary nephew (I'm a friend of the family), a firearms law attorney, just represented a client to contest a proposed revocation of his client's FFL, because the client was using ditto marks in his Acquistion and Disposal book. One BATFE inspector had said it was permitted, but another inspector said it wasn't. My honorary nephew was finally able to receive a determination from a BATFE higher up that the use of ditto marks was legal but not the preferred method of reference.

I'll let all of you decide if the quoted post has merit.

[runscott]

Originally Posted by Golddollar

I'll let all of you decide if the quoted post has merit.

Absolutely yes. Both of the FFLs I spoke with today were very aware of the problems associated with representing firearms publicly. The newest guy seemed to be unreasonably paranoid, but that's his right and I'm okay with it now that I realize he wasn't intentionally making things difficult for me.

iIt's hard to have any love for Seattle voters and the people they have installed in government who do not represent the rest of the state.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by runscott

Just got back from speaking with the current FFL owner. He was super-nice and gave me a great explanation of how things work, from his perspective. As I thought, he will wait until just before the 30-day expiration of the Federal paperwork, then call them. If he can't get approval when he calls, he will re-file the paperwork and the 30-day clock starts again. I was kind of aghast at this, but he said that if it happened again, he would find a way to get the gun to me.

All of this is moot, as the 30-day on my CPL will be Friday, so worst case the Federal paperwork expires and he re-files when I bring in my CPL.

Bad, bad news for those who do not have CPLs, thinking they will never carry so why get one.

This guy is a knucklehead. That’s definitely not how it works. He’s creating more work for himself and screwing you in the process.

And finding a way to get the gun to you is a huge red flag.

[Racer X]

Originally Posted by runscott

Just got back from speaking with the current FFL owner. He was super-nice and gave me a great explanation of how things work, from his perspective. As I thought, he will wait until just before the 30-day expiration of the Federal paperwork, then call them. If he can't get approval when he calls, he will re-file the paperwork and the 30-day clock starts again. I was kind of aghast at this, but he said that if it happened again, he would find a way to get the gun to me.

All of this is moot, as the 30-day on my CPL will be Friday, so worst case the Federal paperwork expires and he re-files when I bring in my CPL.

Bad, bad news for those who do not have CPLs, thinking they will never carry so why get one.

So, its a 30 day wait to get your CPL in Tacoma area? If you are a Seattle resident, the Seattle PD does it on the spot. Takes about an hour total. Renewals are about 15 minutes. Outside Seattle, the King Co Sherriff does it. Not sure of their protocol.

[BC38]

Originally Posted by Racer X

So, its a 30 day wait to get your CPL in Tacoma area? If you are a Seattle resident, the Seattle PD does it on the spot. Takes about an hour total. Renewals are about 15 minutes. Outside Seattle, the King Co Sherriff does it. Not sure of their protocol.

Does the Seattle PD still issue you the card same day? I thought they all went to the system where you do all the paperwork one day, but still have to wait for them to actually send you your permit.

[alde]

Here in Kitsap County my initial CPL took a week. The 2 renewal's since we're on the spot and took about 15 minutes. KC Sheriff seems to be pretty CPL friendly. All my firearm purchases with the CPL have been on the spot but I haven't bought one in a year or so.

[runscott]

Originally Posted by Racer X

So, its a 30 day wait to get your CPL in Tacoma area? If you are a Seattle resident, the Seattle PD does it on the spot. Takes about an hour total. Renewals are about 15 minutes. Outside Seattle, the King Co Sherriff does it. Not sure of their protocol.

Apparently, 30 days minimum here. I was just told that the primary database they use to do background checks crashed in mid-December and they still haven't recovered.

I'm surprised that anything firearm-related would be easier in Seattle, but that's great. Perhaps the transition to Washifornia is going to take longer than I thought.

[STCM(SW)]

Will see how long it takes for my renewal in Spokane later this month.
Haven't bought a gun in some time so don't know what this new BS has in store for most....

[BC38]

Originally Posted by STCM(SW)

Will see how long it takes for my renewal in Spokane later this month.
Haven't bought a gun in some time so don't know what this new BS has in store for most....

Renewal is a breeze - as long as you aren't expired.

Download the application and fill it out in advance (they want it filled out already when you get to the window) BUT DON'T SIGN IT - they want to see you sign it in front of the clerk. Take it down to the Spokane PD. Sign it in front of them, give them your expiring CPL and the fee, they issue the new card on the spot. 10 minutes tops once you get your turn at the window. Of course you may stand in line for a half hour or more to get your turn at the window, but that's normal for any government office.

[runscott]

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

This guy is a knucklehead. That’s definitely not how it works. He’s creating more work for himself and screwing you in the process.

And finding a way to get the gun toy is a huge red flag.

Yes, when I asked if my gun could get perpetually cycled through the 30-day expiration he said that he wouldn't let that happen. His explanation was that worst case, he would transfer the gun to my previous FFL, as their policy was 12 business days without a response and then handing it over.

To me this really is just a matter of how comfortable each FFL feels about what kind of legal problems he could face under various scenarios. My first FFL told me that he adds 2 days to the 10, just to allow for mail delays, but he is completely comfortable with that policy. The second (current) FFL was explaining that he has to have a code to enter at the top of the paperwork, and if the state check doesn't give him the code and he submits after ten days anyway, it's a red flag to the Feds and he could be subject to fines, prison, etc. The first FFL didn't seem to be concerned about such a scenario.

This all really sounds crazy to me, and hopefully I'm not boring you all by posting what I'm finding. I just thought it would be helpful to other Tacoma-area people who think logically and use common sense, and thus might get smacked with something like what I'm experiencing if they use a new FFL who has an unexpected policy such as my FFL's.

I would guess everyone on this forum, other than a few new guys like myself, already have a CPL, so you're safe from such debaucles; however, I was in another gun store yesterday and there was a guy and his girlfriend, ready to buy a gun for her, and the guy at the counter had to explain to them why they needed a 'Concealed Pistol License' to buy a gun, even though they might be certain they never needed to carry. Obviously they don't HAVE to get a CPL, but ... see preceeding paragraphs

Also, thanks tremendously for everyone's feedback on this - it is GREAT to know that the CPL and 'firearm delivery' issues I'm facing are not widespread everywhere in this state.

[runscott]

Surprisingly, got the call today for the first one, a 1955 .357.

Also, they told me that a d.b. crash has the cpl's at closer to 60 days.

[runscott]

Post-Mortem

I had to hand off my 'Police Chief' copy of my c&r license at the same place where I applied for the cpl, so I asked the status of the cpl.

It had been 32 days, so she had someone process it while I waited. Very friendly group of people. At that point I took my cpl over to my FFL and went home with those two guns. Then I went over to another FFL who had just received another gun of mine on Saturday, and headed home with that one as well. Now I have three revolvers to prep before heading to the range tomorrow.

I am officially declaring January 14 'little Christmas'.

[Racer X]

Originally Posted by STCM(SW)

Will see how long it takes for my renewal in Spokane later this month.
Haven't bought a gun in some time so don't know what this new BS has in store for most....

Mine was expired last fall in Seattle, but less than the 60 or 90 days that required a new application. Just paid a late fee.

FYI, oddly enough, in Seattle (but not the rest of King County) they process CWP/CPL new and renewals on the spot. King County sends them later on. And in Seattle, they even laminated mine. Nice woman helped me out and I thanked her. She just beamed.


I missed my chance a few years back to get full auto approval from the County Sheriff. I've known the former sherriff's husband for decades through Scouting. Gotta do a Trust now.