WW2 US Army Uniform, sort of, and other thoughts

Read This, just put out today.

New Army service uniform will be issued to recruits this winter

hittman77 said:

Woman on the left .... what do the white "cords" on the right side of her uniform represent?

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In the US Army under AR 670-1 and 600-8-22 the German Marksmanship Award (Schuetzenschnur) is authorized for wear only by enlisted personnel. Officers may accept, but may not wear the Schuetzenschnur.

If authorized, personnel wear the award on the right side of the uniform coat, with the upper portion attached under the center of the epaulette, and the bottom portion attached under the lapel to a button mounted specifically for wear of this award.

I'm sorry, but I think the new Army Uniform looks like a costume. It's a poor copy of the originals. It doesn't look sharp. Maybe if it was taylored I'd change my mind, but just looks baggy and sloppy.

I don't care for the SS style cap, reminds me of the Politzei cap I saw back in the 70's. I didn't care for berets for everyone either, although a heck of a lot better than the old garrison cap. I wasn't crazy about baseball caps, never been a fan of baseball caps. I liked the old school fatigue cap with ear flaps much better, we wore those in the field, I started wearing mine around the company area, as long as I had my rank on it nobody ever said a thing.

Sistema1927 said:

Looks like all ranks are getting "pinks and greens" this go round, and not just officers:

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A little nit-picking here:

If this photo was taken indoors, the Sergeant Major is in proper uniform and the rest are not.

If this photo was taken outdoors, the Sergeant Major is out of uniform and the rest are properly uniformed.

Explanation: The only time headgear is worn indoors is when the soldier is under arms. Headgear is always worn when outdoors and in uniform (other than certain training conditions, and then everyone complies to one standard). The five soldiers shown are obviously posing for a photograph to display the Army's new Class A uniform, and some minor adjustments to the usual requirements are apparent.

Sistema1927 said:

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Is it me, or does the uniform, on the far right, look like a maternity dress? Really?!

You're spot on there Lobo. That is the CSM of the Army, definitely a photo op.

Just wait until they stuff them into a duffel bag and try to go to their next duty station. If in doubt PM me and I will tell you how do I know.

Note the ridiculous amount of "fruit salad" they are wearing. I enlisted in 1967, met officers and NCOs who had served in WWII, Korea And Vietnam and they didn't have that much. I have read that now people get a ribbon for graduating from Basic-?

BLACKHAWKNJ said:

Note the ridiculous amount of "fruit salad" they are wearing. I enlisted in 1967, met officers and NCOs who had served in WWII, Korea And Vietnam and they didn't have that much. I have read that now people get a ribbon for graduating from Basic-?

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All the services are giving out ribbons for stupid $h**. The Army and the Air Force are the worst , followed by the Navy and then the Corps. Just getting worse as time goes by. I did 24 years with two tours in RVN and was around for Desert Shield/Desert Storm and have three rows of ribbons.

BLACKHAWKNJ said:

Note the ridiculous amount of "fruit salad" they are wearing. I enlisted in 1967, met officers and NCOs who had served in WWII, Korea And Vietnam and they didn't have that much. I have read that now people get a ribbon for graduating from Basic-?

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There has been some generalized cheapening of awards over many years. The trend began with an executive order by President Truman awarding every returning WW2 veteran a Bronze Star for meritorious service (prior to that act the Bronze Star was awarded only for valor in combat).

For several decades (perhaps even today?) any service member who completed 90 days of active duty was awarded the National Defense Service Medal. There have been several theaters of operations, both during wartime and during the "cold war" years, that merited awards such as service medals or campaign ribbons for every service member participating honorably. Nearly all combat operations result in some type of campaign medal or ribbon for all participants.

By my time in Vietnam the awards were largely done in "packages", depending on rank and/or assignments. Enlisted soldiers with clean records of service were frequently given one "package" (such as the Vietnam Service Medal, Vietnam Campaign Ribbon, Army Commendation Medal, perhaps a Good Conduct Medal), while more senior NCO's might receive another package (such as Bronze Star/meritorious service, Army Commendation Medal, etc), company grade officers might receive another package, and staff officers might receive another package. The higher ranking officers seemed to think nothing about awarding each other every possible medal.

Our Vietnamese allies frequently conferred Vietnamese medals and commendations on US troops following liaison assignments or joint operations. The Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry was fairly common, but came in multiple classes denoting the level of recognition.

The soldiers shown in these photos are all combat veterans as nearly as I can tell. Several show "combat service bars" indicating multiple combat tours, and they probably served in multiple theaters, with each combat theater providing authorization for service ribbons, campaign medals, etc.

There is a "pecking order" in the Army, and one of the basics is the awards and decorations in a soldier's service record, which all have weighted value at promotion boards and eligibility for advanced training or higher postings. Some of the ribbons may be "been there, done that", others may denote genuinely outstanding service in some critical capacity, and a few may reflect some act of selfless sacrifice or valor in the face of enemy action.

As I recently noted in another thread, I received all of my decorations after returning from Vietnam, mailed to my "home of record". Each came with copies of the orders authorizing the award, most came with fancy certificates (suitable for framing on your "I love me" wall), and some came with written citations describing the events involved. A half-century later I can read those citations without having a clue what the heck is being described because my memory seems to be a bit different from an enterprising young lieutenant's narrative skills.

The one that seems to get the most public attention is the Purple Heart medal, which actually requires no skills, no personal initiative, and nothing more than choosing the wrong place to be or the wrong time to be there.

The one that means most to me is the Combat Infantryman Badge. Only one way to get that one, and that is to be actively engaged in ground combat with hostile forces while serving as an infantryman. One of those things that just seems to say it all, at least to other infantrymen. I can spot a "CIB" from across a crowded room at the VFW hall, but most folks don't have a clue what it means.

Yes, as Anthony Herbert put it, "There's nothing like a chest full of of ribbons and the old war record when the promotion board meets. "In Vietnam so many generals received the Distinguished Service Medal that it became known as the "generals good conduct medal ", it was a source of considerable embarrassment when Samuel Koster had to be stripped of his for his role in the MyLai coverup. There was a veritable flood of complaints
about senior officers receiving awards they really hadn't earned. Like the pictures I have seen of Soviet generals in their full dress uniforms after WWII. Some of whom-like Budyonny-were not very good commanders. Or Dmitri Ustinov, Soviet Minister of Defense 1976-1984. Wore rows of fruit salad, but never commanded troops in action or was a staff officer. He was Stalin's Commissar of Defense Production, a critical position, think of Henry Kayser in WWII. But not a real soldier.

BLACKHAWKNJ said:

Yes, as Anthony Herbert put it, "There's nothing like a chest full of of ribbons and the old war record when the promotion board meets. "In Vietnam so many generals received the Distinguished Service Medal that it became known as the "generals good conduct medal ", it was a source of considerable embarrassment when Samuel Koster had to be stripped of his for his role in the MyLai coverup. There was a veritable flood of complaints
about senior officers receiving awards they really hadn't earned. Like the pictures I have seen of Soviet generals in their full dress uniforms after WWII. Some of whom-like Budyonny-were not very good commanders. Or Dmitri Ustinov, Soviet Minister of Defense 1976-1984. Wore rows of fruit salad, but never commanded troops in action or was a staff officer. He was Stalin's Commissar of Defense Production, a critical position, think of Henry Kayser in WWII. But not a real soldier.

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For proper perspective, Anthony Herbert is a retired US Army Lieutenant Colonel, entered the Army as a private during Korea, rose to Master Sergeant, and was publicly acknowledged as America's most decorated soldier of the time. Left the Army, graduated college, received a reserve commission and later a Regular Army commission. One of the earliest Special Forces officers. Commanded a battalion of the 173rd Airborne Brigade in Vietnam. Author of "Soldier", his autobiography, which includes some incidents dealing with the "institutional army" mentality and practices.

Very interesting man, and probably one of the best sources for insight into the US Army during the 1950's to late 1970's.

BLACKHAWKNJ said:

Note the ridiculous amount of "fruit salad" they are wearing. I enlisted in 1967, met officers and NCOs who had served in WWII, Korea And Vietnam and they didn't have that much. I have read that now people get a ribbon for graduating from Basic-?

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I graduated from boot camp in October of 1969, I got my first stripe and if memory serves me correctly we were given the National Defense Ribbon. I remember how proud I was to get my "mosquito wing" and thankful to my ma for teaching me how to put a button on a shirt. I remember how odd it was when I was stationed in Germany and we got a new Company Commander. He was a Captain with nothing more than the NDR ribbon on his greens, "I had more time in the crapper..."
I was eligible for a good conduct medal but never wore one because I felt that it should be either issued or handed to me.

This is President Johnson giving General Westmoreland some sort of metal. All the upper brass was there, important people, even the President of South Viet Nam

Several of us were chosen from our unit (101st) to go somewhere in the next few days. We were told to be clean, wear our best jungle fatigues and clean our weapons and web gear. We were told to shine our boots, which we never shined our boots. Only thing was, no one had anything to shine our boots with, but someone did find several cans of black spray paint in supply. So, this is what we used. At least it was flat and not glossy. The Battery Commander was impressed with the results. The rumors was we were going to the Bob Hope Show, but as I pointed out and someone else, why clean our weapons and web gear. Well, everyone was sure it was Bob Hope but instead we landed at Camn Ran Bay airport, to see and hear the President of the United States.

All forces were there, some from the Army, Marines, Navy and Air Force. While several hundred men were in formation, on the tarmac, as the President had landed and about to depart the plane, the Secret Service noticed that EVERY ONE was armed with our M-16's and the Officers with 45's and we always carried at least a basic load of ammo. 7 magazines, each holding 20 rounds each. Before President Johnson would depart the plane, everyone had to go and stack arms and equipment. I guess someone would have taken a shot at him otherwise. Anyway,
there we were, without any weapons and feeling naked without them and listened to the President talking about why we were there, how important a job we were doing, how we were winning and it was only a matter of time before this would be
over. We knew when to clap as he would pause with his speech.

Also, the Secret Service was walking up and down and in and out of the ranks looking for anyone either with a weapon and anyone that could harm the President and when they would go through the ranks they didn't say anything, they just pushed anyone out of their way to get through. Afterwards, everyone thought it was so funny and we told everyone when we got back at base camp. This was Dec. 23, 1967. I thought, the President would be home for Xmas but I would still be here.

Herbert was subjected to a smear campaign because he tried to expose war crimes and other problems, was denied Command and General Staff School and basically squeezed out of the Army. The same thing happened to Hugh Thompson, the pilot hero of MyLai. Current scholarship has found that Herbert understated the problem.
Korea took the Army-and everybody else by surprise, hence it had a WWII look to it-for shame.
There was the attempt to establish the "Distinguished Warfare Medal"-which would have ranked ahead of the Bronze Star-for drone pilots and people seeing "combat" on a computer screen from thousands of miles away. That led to a great hue and a cry and was quickly shot down, one critic stated the system was already overloaded with non-valor awards.
From WWI:
The captain got the Purple Heart, Parlez-Vous
The captain got the Purple Heart, Parlez-Vous
The captain the Purple Heart
He tore his pants on a laundry cart
Hinky Dinky Parlez Vous
The general got the Croix de Guerre, Parlez-Vous
The general got the Croix de Guerre, Parlez-Vous
The general got the Croix de Guerre
The son of a gun was never there
Hinky Dinky Parlez Vous

"... and it will be mandatory by 2028."

The uniform will probably change before then.

No matter what they try, the army will never look as sharp as the Marines.

Muley Gil said:

"No matter what they try, the army will never look as sharp as the Marines.

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I am in full agreement with you when it comes to dress uniforms.

However, I found it quite humorous that when BDU's came out, we were required to roll up the sleeves so that the outer camo showed. You could tell who the "Jar Heads" were a mile away since they had a light region at the elbow where the sleeves were rolled up willy nilly.

The thing I remember about the old wool and cotton uniform was that if you had the ability to take the jacket off the dress greens and shirt with a wife-beater and loosely tied tie was more comfortable than the heavy t-shirt and cotton khakis. For a short period during the summer I worked in Battalion where greens or khakis were the order of the day, once in the office and out of the jacket greens were far more comfortable. I have to agree with Gil, the Marines have always had the best looking uniform...however Army dress blues look very sharp and professional. Wool and cotton have their advantages being natural they breath a bit better than polyesters, wool will keep you warm when wet and will dry from the inside out.

Sistema1927 said:

I am in full agreement with you when it comes to dress uniforms.

However, I found it quite humorous that when BDU's came out, we were required to roll up the sleeves so that the outer camo showed. You could tell who the "Jar Heads" were a mile away since they had a light region at the elbow where the sleeves were rolled up willy nilly.

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There was the white tee shirts too.