Anyone know of current studies on the average # of rounds fired in self defense situations by law abiding citizens ? Do revolvers still have sufficient capacity to serve in this role ? Also, anyone know if the average # of rounds fired by LEO has changed since the almost universal adoption of pistols by law enforcement ?

__________________
I like Ike.

Anyone know of current studies on the average # of rounds fired in self defense situations by law abiding citizens ? Do revolvers still have sufficient capacity to serve in this role ? Also, anyone know if the average # of rounds fired by LEO has changed since the almost universal adoption of pistols by law enforcement ?

__________________
I like Ike.

I am guessing that probably less than 6, but what happens if there are multiple atackers, probably a lot more. There is no such thing as having too much ammo. When I was a cop I carried a back up gun but I stopped when I retired. I started carring two guns again in addition to my .357 8 shot revolver with 3 spare clips I also now carry a CS 45 with one spare mag.

For me it is 4 X 8 of .357 plus 6 + 1 plus 6 of .45 ACP

Needing 10 rounds when you only have 5 is bad. Needing 30 rounds when you only have 20 is bad, too. Worst of all -- not having any when you only need one.

__________________
Pisgah

I don't know how they would count the average gunfight since high cap autoloaders are so prevalent its very common to see "high round count" gunfights. The North Hollywood gunfight had several hundred rounds fired by both sides so you would think that would really "jack up" the average. Me personally, I like revolvers but my main defensive handgun(I've had about 50 handguns) is a 13 shot CZ-75 .40 S&W. I feel slightly more comfortable with it than with my 9 shot .45 1911, but I don't feel the need to go with a 18 or 19 round pistol. I guess it all comes down to what you feel comfortable with.

I keep a cylinder full in the revolver, and enough to fill it up again somewhere on me, haven't run out yet...knock on wood

Good point if you had a gun that holds a lot of rounds you will probably shoot more (spray and pray)reguardles of if it is neeed or not

How about having 30 or 28 when you need only 4? Is that bad?

__________________
Formerly Model520Fan

The only times you can have too much ammo is if you are drowning or on fire!

As for averages, on the average day you won't need any. You are preparing for the exceptions.

__________________
Big bang, much smash'em.

I think I read somewhere that the FBI claims most gunfights end with three shots being fired. However, one round is sufficient when placed properly!

__________________
Lost in Penn's Woods

As a matter of my practice, I carry at least one spare magazine (13 rounds) for my off duty Glock, and at least three (3) speed loaders (18 rounds) when I carry my 686.

__________________
I am a sheep dog!
1601 (ret)

The balance between having a weapon(s) that has enough ammo to defend oneself in various realistic situations and having a one that isn't so big and heavy that one won't carry it as it should be is tricky. I have been a LEO and I have carried guns for personal defense out of uniform and as a civilian for over 39 years. I have carried lots of different pistols trying to find the perfect defense gun. The conclusion that I have come to is such a thing doesn't exist.

I witnessed three shootings by officers back in my uniform days. All three involved the .38 158 gr. LSWHP +P. In two cases the subject went down and out with one shot to the lower abdomen. One was out of a 4" M10 and one from a 2" M10. The other involved officers shooting multiple rounds at a large, psychotic person. Six shots to the torso didn't put the subject down and they were active until they passed out from blood loss. None of the shootings were fatal. All shootings involved six shot .38's at fairly close range. So, was six enough? In two cases yes and in one maybe not.

I think any reasonable choice has to be a compromise. I tend to carry higher capacity autos and a couple of spare magazines when in isolated areas like the back country in the mountains and a single stack auto or a six shot revolver with at least one reload and some sort of BUG in the city. Learning to reload under pressure and use cover are important skills to learn and practice no matter what gun one has. No amount of ammo can make up for lack of skills.

Just one.

That way, you won't holler when the Grizzly is gnawing on your leg.

Tests show hollering irritates the bear's digestion processes.
Keep Rolaids in your pocket too...it calms their stomach. (PETA suggestion)

__________________
Lost it all in a boat accident

Depends on the dream.

__________________
Memory of Randy Freas-Rimfired

Sometimes a lot of your comfort level can be the environment you spend the majority of your time in? Someone collecting cash only rent from tenants in crack house zip codes likely would need more than a person doing an honor guard gig at a relatives funeral. My comfort level of round count has gone up steadily along with my age. It's in an inverse relationship for me also the tougher the economy gets, the less comfortable I feel with only 5. The hairiest 18 month period of time I recall was the early 70's. (72'-74') Which some of the older members recall in urban area's, was a set of circumstances not unlike what we're looking at now. Except this time the circumstances are more dire.

I do carry reloads but a revolver-full is plenty in my opinion. As a citizen, I'm either shooting to stop the immediate attack and/or I'm covering a retreat. I'm not obligated to take the fight to the attacker(s).

__________________
You are what you learn.

If I need more than the 5 in my model 40 s&w, I am in REAL trouble! Come on! How many times have you or anyone else ever heard of since the old west ever heard of a citizen hideing behind a boulder and haveing a shootout until the posse shows up later in the afternoon?

I am too old and slow to get very far. If something happens I plan on running because I will be harder to hit, fire a round or two to try for a hit, but if I miss I will shake up the other guy to throw off his aim. Then stay behind something and keep my head down. Hopefully I will be aware of any problem and get out of there before it starts. If you get into any kind of shooting you have already failed because you weren’t aware enough to see the problem coming. In my case I just can’t run far enough if I happen to be in an area without any cover that is nearby.

=================================

One of my concerns is rest areas, I usually travel to NY and back late at night to avoid traffic. I am always on the alert wen I have to stop at a rest area at 3 or 4 in the morning. As a matter of fact I am <STRIKE>planning on</STRIKE> buying protection to wear on my next drive to NY. As a matter of fact I am sending the money to one of our forum members Tue or Wed.

Yeah,
I guess for me it's just a case of recalling what I once was capable of, as opposed to what reality is now?
(EDIT) But then isn't there a guy that says "carrying a gun shouldn't necessarily be comfortable, but comforting".

I am in agreement with the posters with the position that more is better than less. One of my defensive firearms instructors favorite mantra was "The two things you never have enough of in a gun fight are time and ammunition". What I am asking is does anyone know where to find the research that is often cited about the average number of rounds fired in civilian or LE gunfights ?

__________________
I like Ike.

7,
I know exactly the info your talking about. I found it here on the Forum as a link someone had posted. I'm not where I can search and link currently. But I do remember the stat's being directly from the D.O.J.'s own website. IIRC, there may have also been a break down by caliber employed as well?

David chose five smooth stones. (1Sam 17:40)

-So why couldn't they be NYCLAD FBI loads?

I always liked that.

silvercorvette, would you please explain how you manage carrying what you do. I have the CS45 but no 8rd revolver. I do have a 386PD and a few other items that I can select from: Glock 30, Colt Pony Pocketlite, S&W329PD, S&W642 and a variety of others. I already have to wear suspenders to keep the trousers up if I have more than the 642. Please post here or PM me. I really help with this. Thanks much.

yashua

Silver, I hope neither myself nor any of my loved ones are anywhere downrange when you start corking off rounds "to try for a hit".
Have you forgotten you are resposible for every shot you fire? Guess if I ever visit Anderson, I better keep my head down too!

Roe

Good point Hudson!
But I think he likely had help from a higher authority than I could expect!

This subject comes up a lot and there is never a wrong answer, as far as I can tell.

I do think some folks with a hyperactive imagination watch action-adventure movies and then try to count how many rounds they would need survive predicaments like Rambo gets into.

My belief is that a revolver is adequate, but if attacked by a crowd of 50 teenagers (like one poor soul was here in Kalamazoo recently), I will have to hope that at least 44 of the teens take off at the sound of gunfire.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

...+1...

...use a piece that shoots a pattern rather than a group...hit 'em where they smile...

__________________
A Country Boy Can Survive

My carry-gun as of late is a Mod 66-1 snub.
Loaded with Winchester Silvertips, and one speedloader in my front jeans pocket.
Not very tactical, but that's how I do it.

Jim

I carry a Glock 27 and one spare mag. Most likely once you start shooting the bad guy will turn tail and run. Anyone who is dead set on staying in a gun fight will probably wait and ambush you.

I don't fire off rounds and hope for a hit, if it sounded they way I am sorry that anyone read what I said and misunderstood. I have talked to enough cops that were in shootouts to know that no matter how good you are there are going to be a lot of misses. My first day at the range was in 1970, it was the first time I shot a hand gun. I shot next to a NY city cop that quit to become a Suffolk cop. We scored the target of the person shooting next to us and I scored his target, this guy shot a perfect score or close to it. I remarked to him about his score and commented to him about how well he shot. He told me he got into shoot out as a city cop and every shot missed. He said it is pretty common for excellent paper shooters miss the target when it is for real. I made up my mind that day in 1970 that my first priority would be to get behind cover if I ever got into a shootout. I would assume that people would take for granted that anyone would not return fire in a crowd, but if you can safely return fire it is a good tactic for two reasons, you may hit the person trying to kill you and /or your return fire will shake him up enough to throw off his aim. It is a good idea to always go over what ifs in our head. Sometimes while I am sitting in a chair waiting to see one of the bank officers I think of what ifs to past the time. I have been in the habit since I first started carrying. I now just do it as a habit that I do automatically and always think of what ifs. My what if plan if someone came into a crowded bank is to not do anything to prevent the robbery. Risking anyone’s life isn’t worth it to prevent loosing money. And beside that you have no way of knowing in he has an accomplice standing behind you ready to put a bullet in the back of your head.

When I was a cop and went to the range I always did well and sometimes shot a perfect score and was very confident I would do well if I had to shoot. But when my department introduced moving targets it opened my eyes to how important movement is.



When my department started using moving targets. They put targets on little carts that moved about 2 or 3 miles per hour on tracks so they were moving a lot slower than a man and the were on tracks in a straight line. That little bit of movement hurt my score. The center body mass hits at a still target turned into arm hit, or hitting the edge of the body outline or maybe just hitting paper. It pretty much stands to reason that if most cops I shot with had trouble hitting a moving target. It would also be reasonable to expect that I would be more difficult to hit if I were moving. And than the guy shooting bullets in my direction is less likely to hit me if I am moving . I am as close as you can get to being 100% sure I won’t hit someone standing 10 or 15 feet off to the side of the person I am shooting at but I am not confident enough to take a shot if there is someone standing a foot or two off to the side.

To the person that asked how I am able to carry all that much ammo and guns, I have been carrying in a pocketbook for 3 or 4 years, I carry my second gun on my body in a holster. As a matter of fact I just bought a Shoulder holster for my 1911 last Saturday. And am carrying the 1911 in cold weather but will have to go back to the smaller CS45 in warm weather when I won’t be wearing the clothes that will allow me to conceal the 1911

I have been using this Dillon pocketbook to carry for the past 3 or 4 years

I posted the picture of my posketbook in my other post, but I want to point out winter carry allows more options and in the summer when I am wearing shorts and a "T" shirt my options to what and where I carry are limited

Should be more than enough, even against a real big guy, if the he's just armed with a spear.

To be fair, he was wearing armor (so...Mogadishu drill I guess?) had a shield, a sword and a spear.

-And he wasn't just big, he was a giant!!!

silvercorvette, Thanks for sharing your secrets. I need all the help I can get. I had a life size picture in my mind of you with a Bat Man utility belt with all of the gear hanging on it.

yashua

Was it George Armstrong Custer who recommended saving the last round for yourself?

There is no average gun fight.

A man and his dog average three legs between them.

Sometimes, numbers don't mean very much, or worse, they can be very misleading.

__________________
195th Session FBINA

Much to the detriment of his men and himself, Custer wasn't one for following advice.

Usually, I don't listen to advice given by those who don't think advice is worth much.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spotteddog:
Sometimes a lot of your comfort level can be the environment you spend the majority of your time in? Someone collecting cash only rent from tenants in crack house zip codes likely would need more than a person doing an honor guard gig at a relatives funeral. [QUOTE]

We'd also accept money orders. Solemn nod.

Well, it seems the Obama and Slick Willy agree that it takes an even Dozen to be "Deadly" and of course, the Government 'Knows' everything so there is your answer in a "Nuts' <STRIKE>Shell</STRIKE> Skull(s)"!!!

Luvvitt!

__________________
Bob

A person can drown crossing a river who's average depth is only one inch

Is that like waterboarding?

__________________
Bob

nope, I am ready to go to sleep, i'll explain with the numbers tomorrow unless someone beats me to it, I don't know the numbers, but let's say the river is 1,000 feet wide, and the depth is 1/4 inch for 990 feet of the width, the remaining 10 feet of width would have to be a few feet deep to average out to one inch,


Or lets say you have on foot on a block of ice and one foot in a 500 degree oven. the average temp would be comfortable

No need, my question was a half vast attempt at humor.

See ya after I have coffee...

__________________
Bob

I read somewhere that the "average" was 2-rounds and the time was 3-4 seconds. One of my revolvers holds 5 the other 6 and I'm much more accurate with them than the semi- auto's.
Maybe that's the those bottom feeders hold more rounds???

__________________
Μολὼν λαβέ

HUH?

I have found 15 rounds in the gun and a spare mag in the car console works for me.

To paraphrase Jeff Cooper, "If it takes you more than five rounds, you have probably have already lost the argument."

Hawkeye

Only problem with that is that Cooper was an early champion of the 7+1 Colt 1911 and sometimes stressed that one advantage that it had over a revolver was that it was faster to reload. Back the in the 60s, he even had nice things to say about the Model 39 a few times, including that it held more rounds than a six gun and reloaded faster...

Google "NYPD SOP 9".

The "average" gunfight still seems to be over in 3.5 rounds. Well within the capacity of a revolver.

The average joe is well served by a CCW revolver.....even a 5-shot.

I'm a DA Investigator and have to go where the skels and goblins dwell. More often than not, I go with a 2.5" 66-2 and three speedloaders full of Speer Gold Dot 158 grain (and NO I'm not concerned with overpenetration). I'm well armed, and in thirteen years, have yet to come upon a situation requiring more than 3 rounds.

Anyway, the primary purpose of my handgun is to enable me to reach my 870 in the trunk. So for me the whole "how much" discussion boils down to "as much as I might need". My 0.02 Regards 18DAI.

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change