James Caan on “Thief”. Jeff Cooper mentioned

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Wyatt Burp

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I love this 1980 movie which has a lot of elements of “Heat” by the same director years later. I’m no 1911 combat shooter but Caan looked great handling a 1911 in this movie. He talks briefly about training with Jeff Cooper. LEO Dennis Farina, who I think was great in later films, was tech advisor and got a small role launching him into the movies.
 
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It’s fashionable now days poo-Col. Cooper’s massive influence on modern handgun use.

Much of the criticism stems from Cooper’s very opinionated writings. Some readers find his style difficult: there are many more trainers selling their services than in Cooper’s day and they often try to sell their services by criticizing or contrasting their practices with Cooper’.

I’ve always found his writing to be superior to other gun writers. Since I got training from Cooper in person, I don’t find his style off putting. It’s like judging Mohamed Ali based only on his interviews and not watching his fights: he was a delightful guy but also a great fighter.
 
Rpg said:
It’s fashionable now days poo-Col. Cooper’s massive influence on modern handgun use.

Much of the criticism stems from Cooper’s very opinionated writings. Some readers find his style difficult: there are many more trainers selling their services than in Cooper’s day and they often try to sell their services by criticizing or contrasting their practices with Cooper’.

I’ve always found his writing to be superior to other gun writers. Since I got training from Cooper in person, I don’t find his style off putting. It’s like judging Mohamed Ali based only on his interviews and not watching his fights: he was a delightful guy but also a great fighter.
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In the video “The Making Of “Heat”” by the same director, it shows Robert De Niro and I think Val Kilmer training shooting for that movie and it looked pretty extensive. I forgot who or where trained them.
 
I read Jeff Cooper in Guns & Ammo beginning in the early '60s and can't say I benefited in any way. However, knowing no better, I used to read just about everything that was in that magazine; some of it worthwhile, some not.

Cooper may have been a fine man and an incredibly knowledgeable gun person and there's nothing necessarily wrong with being opinionated, but his writings were so filled with an incredible arrogance that the words seemed to ooze off the page. This usually rendered what could have been a good article into a small-minded acerbic treatise that was worth little.

His in-person instruction may have been far different than his horrible literary manner and he may have imparted much useful information to his students.

Maybe the G&A editor saw a strange need for the Cooper-type article and encouraged such. I'm not familiar with gunfighting schools and their alleged criticism of Cooper. And modern day "trainers"? Are these legitimate bonafide experts or are they simply a small step above uncrendentialed YouTube maestros?
 
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Another factor that may be involved is the percentage of the public who demand the BEST, the ULTIMATE, the UNCOMPROMISED, and are totally dismissive of anything that doesn't measure up to some imagined empirical standard.

Mr. Cooper was not the only writer working toward a cult of extremes. We continue to see similar things in today's publications, either promoting the newest bestest super-duper while denigrating everything that came before as obsolete at best, or dangerous, or both; and the pendulum swings both ways with (some of us) die-hard fanatics insisting that the pinnacle of handgun design came along in 1911 and everything since then has been wasted effort.

When you are publishing magazines you are always trying to maximize market share and revenues. When you make your living writing for popular magazines there might be a tendency toward building a cult of personality and guarantee future paychecks. When your publisher accepts a big advertising contract you might expect to focus on the client's products and their inherent superiority over anything ever available to the public.

Large doses of salt are required, but for many years we were warned that salt was probably killing us (along with eggs, red meat, and sweetened soft drinks).
 
I dimly recall Caan going on some talk show and when asked about training, made a crack about "going out in the desert with some Nazi". Never really watched anything he did after that-assuming I saw much before that. Did recognize the name/face.
 
Cooper is no longer here to defend himself, and he was rather opinionated.
I recall a Charlie Askins/Bill Jordan 'debate" over the revolver vs. the semiauto, Charlie Askins said his editors encouraged him to write provocative articles. Cooper did write that he advocated the 41 Magnum for anyone "still wedded to the revolver concept" and he answered one reader
"As much as I favor the 45, i wear a 44 in bear country."
 
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Looks like the movie is available on YouTube:

Hey, opening credits say Willie Nelson is in this!



Later edit: Willie's in the movie for five minutes, tops. He's the Caan character's mentor/father figure. No hint that he's a singer/songwriter, Straight up bit part acting gig. Good job, too.

No mention of Cooper in the movie, at least that I noticed. Guess the mention was elsewhere, perhaps when Caan talked of prepping for the role.

I agree. Pretty good movie.
 
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Thief was considered a training film when I was on the job, as was The Conversation. Today I would recommend The Usual Suspects as a primer on how NOT to conduct an interrogation. We also used Patton as a training aid for traffic direction.

Patton, Custer and Cooper are either revered or despised and I won't waste my breath trying to convert anyone.
 
Michael Mann, the writer/producer/director, has
always been a stickler for his actors to be
trained in firearms. "Thief" was an early
example.

Perhaps one of the most famous shooting scenes
his films involved Jim Zubiena, the 1984 IPSC
Grand Master and playing a hitman, using
the Mozambique Drill with an appendix draw.
This was in "Miami Vice."

Supposedly some police departments used this
scene as an example of how officers should not
be distracted, even for a super split second.

After "Miami Vice," Zubiena continued as an
advirsor for Don Johnson and designed the
custom .39 Super Johnson used in "Nash Bridges."
 
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Jeff Cooper's writings were meant to provoke strong reactions. Many people in the shooting fraternity tend to be dogmatic. His cult following hung on every word as if it were gospel, his detractors couldn't wait to read what he said next that they could roundly criticize. Publishers liked him because he sold a lot of magazines.

I consider him a true Renaissance Man.
Handgun, rifle, ammunition, self-defense, hunting, writing, teaching, training, not to mention social commentary, these were all subjects he could speak about with authority.

I'm not a devout follower (I like revolvers), but I recognize what he was and what he accomplished.

By the way, I liked Thief especially the final shoot out.
 
WR Moore said:
I dimly recall Caan going on some talk show and when asked about training, made a crack about "going out in the desert with some Nazi". Never really watched anything he did after that-assuming I saw much before that. Did recognize the name/face.
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Grayfox said:
If nothing else, Col. Cooper was a man of strong opinions. He didn't mind sharing them either. :rolleyes:
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Caan was also a man of strong opinion and didn't cut corners with how he stated them. I think he was probably giving Cooper a 'left-handed compliment" with the "Nazi" comment, as Cooper was very strict and regimented in his training methods. Caan was Jewish, and his parents came to the US prior to WWII to escape Nazism. I think Caan appreciated Cooper's training style as he was also a lifetime martial arts practitioner and quite accomplished, becoming a 6th dan black belt. I don't think he would have hesitated to make that comment to Cooper, but not as an insult.
 
I dimly recall watching the show he made it on. It wasn't intended as a compliment in any way, shape or form to whoever actually did the training.
 
I met quite a few gun writers of yore..Listened to them talking for usually brief periods Consensus seemed to be controversy sold magazines...so did creating a vocal following. Keith and O'Connor didn't despise each other...but Jack was "edumacated and better than the rabble" and it was made apparent and dismissed by the other writers...BTW most of those guys could shoot which in my line of work was a plus. Never met Cooper that I remember but did read his writings. I used the 45s to defend my life...still do...but tend to carry smaller/lighter(Sig 365) these days but always have a 1911 in the vehicle when we come home...no streetlights here. Stars and moonlight. one in/on the bed too
 
I loved reading Guns & Ammo and Cooper on Handguns and had a subscription when I was about 10 years old all the way through college. Cooper was an amazing salesman, he was very convincing and I think because of him nearly everyone was buying a 1911 in the 70s and 80s if they didn't already have one. He could convince people his Scout rifle was so great they didn't need to own any other rifle but in reality any youth model .308 carbine with a low powered variable scope would be basically as good.
 
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Like Bill Buckley, Mr Cooper had an extensive vocabulary and could call You and idiot and You would thank Him. When Mr Cooper found out Mr Caan was taking His pistol course so He could make a movie, Mr Cooper asked Him to leave. Not because of the actual movie, but the name of the movie. Mr Cooper did write about this saying ( I don't recall the exact quote ) something like " I refuse to teach proper pistol technique to a thief".
 
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