I have noticed several for sale guns (here and elsewhere) that state they will only ship to a FFL that takes a copy of their drivers license

OK that is up to the receiving FFL But there really is no way to do so "legally" or within common carrier policies?

ATF says it can be done using a a common carrier which would be UPS or FedEX, BUT neither allow a non licensee to do so.(they used to, but heck it is more expensive than going through a FFL)

It is illegal to ship a handgun through USPS by a non licensee.

So how are these people doing it?? Not telling UPS or FedEx what's in the package? What happens if the package gets lost, damaged or inspected?? I doubt either would pay a claim.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Back in December I wanted to ship a AR lower receiver to a shop outside Orlando to get some work done on it. The AR lower is the only part considered a gun.

I was shipping it to a FFL/SOT, and asked him how I should ship it to him.

He told me to put it in a box and mail it to him. The post office asked...“Does this parcel contain anything liquid, fragile, perishable, or potentially hazardous?” Said no, paid and left.

This may be the absolute way NOT to do it thou.

They’re gambling they won’t get caught to save a few bucks. I doubt it’s worth it if you do get caught

I sold a .38 M&P on this forum last month. I had to bend over
and grab my ankles to ship through an FFL. It wasn't cheap.
Looking to sell locally next time.

Last time I shipped a handgun through a local FFL it was pretty simple. I took the revolver, packaging and receiving FFL license to my local dealer. He checked the serial number then entered it into his bound book, he then noted in his bound book that the pistol had been removed from inventory and made a copy of the receiving FFL for his records.

I then sealed up the package and took it down to the local PO and I paid for shipping and insurance. The label I had printed up showed the local dealers address as the return address but inside the package was a copy of the auction receipt showing the buyers info and my info.

It was pretty painless and straight forward and we both thought we were following the Federal rules. He charged me $25.

I bought a C&R handgun on this forum. The seller isn't an FFL and doesn't have a C&R license but he sent it to me via priority mail. Obviously, he didn't care that he was breaking the law.

My local FFL will ship a handgun for a total fee of $50.00 all in.

__________________
NRA, SWCA #2262

Ship my Gun .com

Simple, they do it to save a buck, more than you might think.

My FFL received a forum gun some 3 years ago. Sent USPS with nothing but the gun in the box, not even wrapped up.
He was not amused and he does/did receive from individuals.

A long gun CAN be sent via the USPS where LEGAL.

I’ve honestly never done it, but what would be the difference between shipping a gun to a buyer, than selling it to them at a gun show?

UPS had, and may still have the company policy of not accepting handguns for shipment. The reason for that policy was because so many of the handguns got “lost”. Not because of legalities. I worked at UPS for 43 years.

Anyone with a printer and an internet connection can go on UPS.com and generate a label. For contents, that person could list “tools” and insure it for whatever amount they wanted. If the package never makes it to the destination, who’s the wiser? The claim would still be paid.

This seems a very good solution to me.

My FFL works out of his home and has very reasonable transfer fees. I asked him if he would ship for me occasionally. He hemmed and hawed a bit, and finally said if it was very occasional, yes. I can see how it would take up his time, etc., and be something he is not keen on. But I bet if I did all the scut work, as described by walnut red, he'd go for it...

Also, lookin at the UPS site, while they start out stating a non FFL cannot ship by UPS,

..Shipments containing Firearm Products are accepted for transportation only from shippers who are federally licensed and have an approved UPS agreement for the transportation of Firearm Products...

they later add some limited wiggle room,

...Approved shippers can provide a shipping label that complies with UPS’s requirements for the shipment of Firearm Products to customers who need to ship Firearm Products back to the approved shipper (or to another address as agreed upon between UPS and the approved shipper). Such packaged, labeled shipments can be tendered to UPS at a UPS Customer Center, through one of UPS’s Scheduled Pickup services, or through a UPS On-Call Pickup® request...

https://www.ups.com/us/en/support/sh.../firearms.page

Once ffl enters that gun in his books he should be the only one mailing it.

Interesting……C&R 03 is a licensed collector.


“UPS accepts packages containing Firearm Products for shipment only as a contractual service and only from Shippers who are licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code) to authorized recipients, as outlined in the approved UPS agreement for the transportation of Firearm Products”

So, only the person whose name is on the FFL can touch the package once it's entered into the books? What make you think that? What about the dealers employees, whose name is not on the FFL? Could they touch the package? What if he had said: You're driving by the PO on your way home, I'll give you $5 to drop off all my mail, including this package?

The firearm was entered into his bound book with documentation for the receiving FFL. It could be traced from his shop to the receiving FFL. I understand that being in NY you have to be a little more paranoid but here in the flyover states I think we met both the letter and intent of Federal law. If I lived in NY, NJ, IL or Cali I'd probably feel different also because of State interpretations.

I take it as once its entered in the books the ffl has official possession of it. Handing it over to anyone not affiliated with the business could become problematic.

I once consigned a gun at my local gun show. I still owned it but had to pay 7 bucks to log it in. Gun didn't sell and I had to pay 7 bucks again to officially get my own gun back.

Didn't mind but it was a learning curve understanding how FFLs need to have a precise written custody trail. I don't blame them.

Do you think UPS knows what in every package?

You think I don’t know what company policy is?

I just saying, Theoretically, it could happen.

shipmygun.com has an agreement with UPS to allow individuals to drop off/ship firearms using their label. Very reasonably priced. Only caveat is that you must drop off at a customer service center, not a UPS store or drop off location. The customer service centers are not in every town.

2nd day air for pistols, ground for long guns.

For those with experience with shipmygun, please tell us how you like the service and what it costs.

Gun Shipping Create Shipment

I have not used them. I tried once but the receiving FFL was not on their list and had no interest in being on it.

You enter a zip code, after answering a few questions, choose a Preferred dealer and get a quote, it’s pretty simple.

Pay and they send you a label to affix to the package.

“Our FFL list above allows customers to see what dealer licenses we already have on file in the area they need to ship a firearm. Preferred Dealers are listed in green and have agreed to accept all incoming ATF approved firearms transfers from ShipMyGun.com customers. When choosing a Preferred Dealer from our list, you do not need to contact the dealer to request approval of your firearm transfer.

If you choose a dealer from our list which is not currently listed as Preferred, we will be unable to process your shipment until we are able to contact the dealer and request their approval of the firearm transfer. To avoid delays, please either choose a Preferred Dealer from our list, or ask the dealer to Contact Us to become a Preferred Dealer.

If you would like to ship your firearm to a FFL dealer which does not currently appear on our list, please contact the dealer and ask them to send us a copy of their FFL license via fax 800-804-5569 or Electronically.

ShipMyGun.com services includes only the shipping of firearms to transferring FFL dealers nationwide. The actual firearm transfer fees charged by each FFL dealer are negotiated between the dealer and the firearm buyer or transferee. ShipMygun.com has no involvement in the FFL firearm transfer process or the associated fees.”

When it goes in book. He is responsible for it. If you are in certain states you can no longer posses it. You relinquished ownership. The point is if it does not reach its destination or you decide to commit a crime with it, he is responsible. He is taking a chance by allowing someone else to transport it and posses it. FFL employees are listed as such. Not on actual FFL COPY but they are certified to handle transactions.

As an FFL, I shipped several hundred handguns via USPS last year.

I had two that had issues in transit that I had to report issues with the shipments to USPS customer service based on tracking info. Once those customer service requests were opened and it was known that firearms were in the shipments, a lot of extra eyes were put on figuring out what was going on with those shipments. Thankfully, both shipments eventually found their way to their proper destinations.

I had a UPS shipment to me get lost for a couple of days, and similar results once they figured out what the contents were.

Aside from it being illegal for non-FFLs to ship handguns via USPS, you will also have zero insurance protection on the shipment if there are issues.

I have an admitted bias, but I would just find a FFL that would charge a reasonable fee for shipping it.

Just a Federal offense, no worries


Of course you filled out the USPS Form 1508?


https://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Georgia to South Carolina 2nd day air (pistol with insurance) was $39.

As I stated above, you MUST drop off at a customer service center, not a UPS store or drop off point, so distance may play a factor.

Had I gone to my FFL, shipping would have been around $35 and a $25 transfer fee.

*
The federal law standard is different for handguns and long guns, and as I recall, your method was lawful.

__________________
NHI, 10-8.

Correct, I’ve shipped long guns via USPS, and a rifle lower is still a long gun.

It actually depends on if the lower was ever manufactured into a rifle or pistol, or if it was still just a receiver.

If an AR-15 lower has been manufactured into a rifle, the receiver is a rifle. However, if it had been manufactured into a pistol, the receiver is a pistol. If it is still a receiver and has never been manufactured into a rifle or pistol, it is neither a rifle or a pistol, legally speaking.

I can just picture someone illegally mailing a 95%+ RM, having the gun get stolen and then declaring to the PO that those Chinese screwdrivers they shipped in a flat rate box were worth $10-15,000.

The issue becomes if something goes wrong, you've violated the GCA '68 which requires that you tell the shipper that you are shipping a gun. A middle class gun owner will be prosecuted to make a point.

I once asked my ATF inspector why we had to tell UPS that we were shipping a gun and he said, "Because it is the law." He didn't care about the rationale for the law.

You don't relinquish ownership, just custody.

It all depends on whether the transfer is interstate or intrastate and what state laws are on intrastate transfers.

Any interstate transfer is required to go though a licensee at the receiving end. Even a gun show sale.

I'm just wondering, I had to return a gun to Ruger. They sent a shipping label, I think, and FedEX picked the gun up here and delivered it back to me from Ruger. Is that different because it's not being transferred (sold)?

Yes. A non-FFL firearm owner can ship a firearm directly back to the manufacturer for repairs.

Yes.

The manufacturer or custom shop, that has an FFL, they can return it back to the owner direct.

Some might be interested in this BATF FAQ. It has some interesting information, including the answer to the OP's question. Always go to the source.

6. May I lawfully ship a firearm directly to an out-of-State licensee, or must I have a licensee in my State ship it to him? May the licensee return the firearm to me, even if the shipment is across State lines?

Any person may ship firearms directly to a licensee in any State, with no requirement for another licensee to ship the firearm. However, handguns and other concealable firearms are not mailable through the United States Postal Service and must be shipped via private common or contract carrier (18 U.S.C. § 1715). The USPS and private common or contract carriers may also have additional restrictions on firearms shipments by unlicensed persons. Firearms shipped to FFLs for repair or any other lawful purpose may be returned to the person from whom received without transferring the firearm through an FFL in the recipient’s State of residence. FFLs may also return a replacement firearm of the same kind and type to the person from whom received (18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(2)(A)). An ATF Form 4473 is required for the return of the firearm, except in instances when a firearm is delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing, and the same firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom
received (27 CFR § 478.124(a)).

Attached Files

BATFE Frequently Asked Questions.pdf (68.1 KB, 10 views)

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

NO, it is not a federal offense.
Individuals CAN mail long guns.
Scroll down to 432.3-
432 Mailability
The form 1508 says at top:
so I assume individuals are not required to file one.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Excerpt below is from my post above, so how does the 4473 fit into mailability for a non-licensee?

An ATF Form 4473 is required for the return of the firearm, except in instances when a firearm is delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing, and the same firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom
received (27 CFR § 478.124(a)).

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

If I, a non-licensee, mail a shotgun to my friend across the state, there is no need for a 4473 because I'm not a licensee and the intrastate transfer is perfectly legal.

If a licensee mails a firearm intrastate to someone who is NICS exempt, there is a procedure for the 4473.

ATF Proc. 2020-1 – Recordkeeping procedure for non-over-the-counter firearm sales by licensees to unlicensed in-state residents that are NICS exempt | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

What was the lower initially listed as??


Whatever, doesn't matter the original post was about folks shipping handgun without using a FFL




Couldn't add this due to log out issues


431.1 Firearm

The following definitions apply:

1. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person).
2. Firearm frame or receiver is the part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. Frames and receivers usually (but not always) include the firearm serial number and are usually considered to be the regulated component of a firearm.

A lower or frame is a "firearm" and not mailable per USPS definitions

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

I used Shipmygun for the first time last week to ship two handguns I sold on the forum. Fully insured cost about $40 each. Worked out well. I am pleased with the experience because the last time I sold a gun shipping cost me just over $100.

Here's my experience:

• You answer questions on ShipMyGuns website, pay with a credit card, and they email you a prepaid UPS label to print out for your box.

• You put a copy of your DL and your buyer's name and contact info in the box, and stick the label on the outside. (I was told if you can't print out the label yourself, UPS will do this for you when you give it to them.)

• You then take your box with handgun and with prepaid label affixed to a UPS "Customer Service Center." This is a UPS hub. You cannot just take the box to any UPS location.

Shipmygun has FFLs who have registered with it all over the country. The FFL you are sending to must be registered with Shipmygun. You choose the one you want to send to from a drop down menu. If not registered, I saw somewhere that FFL's can register with them and the registered list is updated twice a week. In my case, one buyer's preferred FFL was registered and the other's wasn't, but in the latter's case a nearby FFL was registered and we used that one.

I called Shipmygun a couple of times, explaining I was a first time customer, for clarifications. They answered quickly and were courteous:

First question I had was they ask you to choose one of three sizes of boxes. This confused me because I already had boxes. When I asked what was that about, the woman told me the size of the box did not matter, that they charged by weight. (I later saw somewhere, maybe in the FAQs, that they no longer provide boxes anyway because boxes were getting damaged in shipping to customers. While irrelevant, since the site seems to want you to choose a box size, I chose the medium one.) I used a kitchen scale for weight, and plugged that in.

Second time I called I wanted to know when they asked what zip code you were shipping from, did they want your home address zip code or the UPS Customer Service Center location zip code. They said the latter. (My guess is that in reality it does not matter, unless you choose a UPS location far from the closest ones to you.)

Third time I called was to ask where my receipt or label was after their site accepted my credit card. I received no immediate email response like one gets with most sites. Answer to that one was that all orders are reviewed by a human, and that my receipt/label would show up within one biz day. One email with label arrived later that day.

However, my second label did not arrive.

When I bought the second label I got, briefly, an error message, but then the order seemed to go through. But, 24 hours later, no label. It occurred to me to check my credit card statement online. I saw where I had been charged for the second label, but that the charge had soon been reversed.

I called for a fourth time to ask what was up. They advised to clear the last 24 hours of my cookie cache on my iPad. I did that, ordered the label again, and it showed up later that same day.

After checking for UPS Customer Centers on Google Maps, I found one on the way to my gunsmith's, who is about an hour and 15 minutes from me, and decided to drop off the packages along the way the next day as I wanted to have a couple of my guns worked on.

Next day I get to the UPS Customer Center I have chosen and — surprise, surprise! — the Customer Center is closed. For the week. (I met a nice UPS guy in the parking lot who helped me figure this out. Never occurred to me that they would close a hub's customer service center for a week...)

Anyway, on to the gunsmith's. Dropped off the guns to be worked on, then off to a different UPS hub where I dropped off the guns to be shipped, no questions asked, and then returned home.

So, all in all, I rate it as a good experience, and I like the price. (I will call the UPS Customer Service Center next time around to be sure they are open though!)

Not if it arrived damaged it wouldn't. They won't pay a claim on a DAMAGED shipment without inspecting the damaged package and the damage to the contents - assuming the gun stayed completely hidden in the box and got delivered.

Also if the box were damaged in transit - say the barrel of the gun poked through the side of the box - once it was identified as a gun that was shipped improperly, they would then turn the gun, and box (with your address on the shipping label) over to the ATF. I expect you'd get a call from the local ATF office. They certainly wouldn't pay any kind of claim.

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

When I lived in Maryland, the UPS depot closes to me had a customer service desk that was open from 7 to 7. So I thought that was normal. After I moved to Pittsburgh, I needed to ship something so I headed to the UPS depot only to discover that the customer service desk closed at 2 PM. Not exactly friendly to walk in business.

Shipped a long gun just 15 minutes ago via very small local USPS facility.
Paid extra for “over 30 inches, insurance, adult signature” …..off it went.

__________________
Sure you did

I'd been doing it occasionally for years. I had no clue of the policy change.
Well, guess what. I am now going to eat the cost of a gat that's been stolen. The FedEx ground delivery driver falsely completed a proof of delivery. However, the FFL has video surveillance of his driveway and door, and no such attempt was recorded that day. FedEx said that since I'm not an FFL, it was "illegal" for me to use them to ship...blah blahblah.

Tell them to call ATF. As long as you told the carrier that you were shipping a gun, nothing was "illegal." That said, I would hope that ATF would be interested in a FedEx driver who was stealing guns.