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Old 04-22-2024, 09:50 PM
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Well, maybe. An intriguing article on fitting giant sails to cargo ships.(But remember to take 'em down before going under a bridge.)

These 150-foot-high sails could help solve shipping’s climate problem

Harnessing the power of wind could both reduce emissions from cargo ships and extend the life of these vessels

"These aren’t the sailboats of yore. Modern sails look more like airplane wings, smokestacks or balloons, and they use artificial intelligence to catch the wind with little help from mariners ...

Sails can reduce an existing ship’s fuel consumption — and greenhouse emissions — by something like 10 or 20 percent, according to maritime experts, making them an attractive option for ship owners looking to cut costs or comply with environmental regulations..."



The design from Michelin is iconic:
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Old 04-22-2024, 09:56 PM
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Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back!  
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I started reading about these ideas in Popular Mechanics back in the 60s. Good ideas, in theory.

Kevin
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Old 04-22-2024, 10:24 PM
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Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back!  
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The general idea has been around in several forms for a long time. But it does slow the ship.
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Old 04-22-2024, 10:33 PM
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Turbosails. Jacques Cousteau 1981.
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Old 04-22-2024, 11:02 PM
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Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back!  
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I started reading about these ideas in Popular Mechanics back in the 60s. Good ideas, in theory.

Kevin
I think I may have read about them back then, too. I don't know what the impetus was to develop them at that point, other than an interesting design concept, as the current panic about reducing fossil fuel use and pollution was barely in its infancy AFAIK. Interesting idea though and if the fuel savings are as they claim, could be a useful development.
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Old 04-23-2024, 06:03 AM
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Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back!  
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A similar proposal comes along every 5 or 10 years. Unfortunately, they never get any wind in the sails and go beyond the idea stage.

Kevin
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Old 04-23-2024, 09:04 AM
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very punny StrawHat.. now apologize to the class.. lol
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Old 04-23-2024, 11:29 AM
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They’d work on ships with limited use to traveling from non-bridge port to non-bridge port. Most shipping companies tend to avoid single usage ships but examples do exist: Great Lakes BIG ships that can’t go up rivers or in to restrictive ports as an example. They get great use just hauling (stuff) from and to ports they can handle and do it a whole lot cheaper than smaller more versatile ships.
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Old 04-23-2024, 12:09 PM
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Its not the most practical idea around.. its cute but has never gotten traction.
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Old 04-23-2024, 12:26 PM
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Conventional sails are not very effective or practical, but so-called spinning sails have potential:

High-tech wind power lets ships slash fuel costs and emissions. - ASME
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Old 04-23-2024, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
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The general idea has been around in several forms for a long time. But it does slow the ship.
My guess is speed does not matter that much for ocean freight. Cost and efficiency — not sure if there is a distinction between the two — surely, are paramount.
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Old 04-23-2024, 01:25 PM
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Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back! Oy, arrrr! The age of sail be coming back!  
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My guess is speed does not matter that much for ocean freight. Cost and efficiency — not sure if there is a distinction between the two — surely, are paramount.
That was my impression from the article as well. Mostly about reducing fuel consumption and pollution. A few extra days for "the slow boat from China" probably isn't too critical.

@oneyedpete: Thanks for the ASME article. Interesting. I think I may have seen a similar article about the same time.

And again, (the Magnus-effect rotating sails) are not a new idea (1924!):
The Magnus effect was a scientific curiosity until Anton Flettner, a German engineer, came up with the idea of harnessing it for ships. Instead of a spinning ball, he envisioned using a motor to spin a column that would generate Magnus forces along its length. The forces produced by the spinning column would act perpendicular to the direction of a vector of wind and the vessel’s forward motion.

Armed with his calculations, Flettner convinced the Germania Shipyard in Kiel to back him. In 1924, Germania launched the first rotor sail-powered ship, the Buckau, which Flettner sent across the Atlantic in 1926 to drum up business in America. That same year, Germania built a larger freighter, Barbara, which plied the Mediterranean for three years. While the new technology proved reliable, it was buried by a combination of more efficient diesel engines, cheap fuel, and the Great Depression...
The critical issue with technologies like these is whether they are practical enough in terms of cost vs performance to be adopted on a broad enough scale to be worthwhile.
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Old 04-24-2024, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
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A similar proposal comes along every 5 or 10 years. Unfortunately, they never get any wind in the sails and go beyond the idea stage.

Kevin
This exactly. SS/DD


Now what really is new, is there's serious talk about using nuclear propulsion for container ships. That would take a serious bite out of ship pollution- Bunker #2 is not a clean fuel.
And, it's cost effective as there'd be no refueling over the lifetime of the vessel.

ABS Groundbreaking Study Explores Commercial Nuclear

And the Chinese are on it:

Plans for Nuclear-Powered 24,000 TEU Containership Unveiled in China

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Old 04-24-2024, 02:18 PM
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Now what really is new, is there's serious talk about using nuclear propulsion for container ships. That would take a serious bite out of ship pollution- Bunker #2 is not a clean fuel.
And, it's cost effective as there'd be no refueling over the lifetime of the vessel....
Interesting. "The Chinese are on it"... Not surprising. Like 'em or loathe 'em, they're ahead of us in a number of areas, including having recycling facilities for lithium batteries and (I think) solar panels.

In the first article, I was surprised to see this:

...The study, which involved input from leading nuclear reactor developers, modeled the impact of two, lead-cooled, 30MW fast reactors"...

Lead-cooled?? I'd think water would be the coolant since they'll have rather a lot of it available (!) But I'm not a nuclear engineer.
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Old 04-24-2024, 02:24 PM
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Interesting. "The Chinese are on it"... Not surprising. Like 'em or loathe 'em, they're ahead of us in a number of areas, including having recycling facilities for lithium batteries and (I think) solar panels.

In the first article, I was surprised to see this:

...The study, which involved input from leading nuclear reactor developers, modeled the impact of two, lead-cooled, 30MW fast reactors"...

Lead-cooled?? I'd think water would be the coolant since they'll have rather a lot of it available (!) But I'm not a nuclear engineer.
Lead/bismuth eutectic is one of the coolants for fast neutron reactors. Water slows neutrons down. Advantage of a fast reactor is high burnup of the fuel. Water cooled (thermal) reactors only use 2-5% of the available fuel. Also, the primary side can be run at zero pressure- much safer.

LWR's (Light water reactors) are also pretty twitchy with controls. Fast reactors are generally more hands-free operationally.
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Old 04-24-2024, 05:20 PM
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Reactor powered is interesting except for the need to sail in a convoy if not avoid some sea routes completely. I doubt the industry would spring for a squad of Marines to secure the reactors.
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Old 04-24-2024, 06:01 PM
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Anyone remember the N.S. Savannah, the first nuclear powered merchant ship? She was put into service in 1959, and she's still afloat, awaiting possible museum status. She still looks good, and if you look carefully below the bridge, you can see the image of an atom with the electrons circling a porthole which serves as the nucleus.




Although she stopped carrying passengers in the mid-sixties, passenger reports on her amenities were positively glowing.
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Old 04-24-2024, 07:41 PM
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passenger reports on her amenities were positively glowing.
I saw that
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Old 04-24-2024, 08:38 PM
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The NS Savannah was hampered in her cargo capacity by the large reactors of the day. But, she was fast. So, she made a good trade in Orchids! She would load orchids into the state rooms, crank the air conditioning and sail to San Francisco or whatever Port could handle the load.

My Uncle was in charge of the one time she refueled.

The name Savannah was specifically chosen. The SS Savannah was the first steam powered sailing vessel. An interesting lineage!

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Old 04-25-2024, 01:26 AM
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Reactor powered is interesting except for the need to sail in a convoy if not avoid some sea routes completely. I doubt the industry would spring for a squad of Marines to secure the reactors.
Probably why the Chinese went with molten salt. Hard to steal anything worthwhile from a terrorist standpoint.
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Old 04-25-2024, 11:19 AM
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I suspect that when push comes to shove, getting goods quickly to market is more important than moving the goods slower-but-cheaper. Getting from stage to stage quickly in any operation is most important, long as it’s done safely (etc).
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