I finished the series last night and thought it was excellent. I would strongly recommend it. One thing has bothered me though from the first combat scenes.

How did all the gunners on the B-17’s keep from having friendly fire accidents when attacked by German fighters? Those B-17’s flew in close formations—I have seen that from historical photographs, news-reels, etc., not just the movie—and the German fighters would be flying in to attack in every direction under the sun. How did our own boys keep from hitting other Fortresses flying in formation when feverishly trying to shoot down the German fighters?

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Love my country, hate my govt.

Chances are they didn't! It would be difficult to differentiate damage from different weapons or identify the exact source. I would assume some "friendly fire" damage from other aircraft within the formation was expected!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

My father in law was a B-17 waist gunner, and when I asked him how they avoided shooting their own aircraft or others in the tight formations, he said there was occasional damage and casualties from "friendly" fire from other bombers, but it was rare. He said aircraft recognition and fire discipline was stressed in gunnery school, so there was very little wild shooting, and that there was no time for long bursts, as a fighter would flash through his field of fire in just a second or two, and even with a warning over the intercom that it was coming, it was all he could do to cut loose a few rounds before it flashed by and was gone. He said that in all his missions, maybe he might have hit one fighter. I asked him how gunners kept from shooting their own plane when tracking a fighter with a burst. He said the turrets had interrupters to keep from shooting their own plane, but waist gunners occasionally shot their own horizontal stabilizers.
They had far more damage from enemy fighters and most of all, FLAK (Fliegerabwehrkanone). He described the black FLAK bursts as "thick enough to get out and walk on" and the clatter of the shrapnel from them hitting his plane as "sounded like you threw tire chains into a galvanized wash tub."

Once at a fly in, there was a B 17 there. An "old" guy was looking intently at the ball turret. He had been a ball turret gunner. He said he got to shoot "at" an Me 262. The top turret called him to be ready. He selected high speed and angled down. As it passed he got off some rounds at it. Don't know what speed they could do in a power dive. Those guys had big brass ones. To do 25 missions must have been Hell.

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No baby we aint

The requirement originally was fifty missions. This was changed to twenty-five as casualities increased, but I don't know the date of the change. My Father was a waist gunner in the first US group (97th Bomb Group) to bomb European targets in August, 1942 from their base at Polebrook, England. As the most "experienced" combat group, they were sent to North Africa in November, 1942. I have a copy of my Dad's fifty missions, including targets and dates. After completion, he was sent back to the US in July, 1943.

I believe the missions requirements changed several times during the war from 50, to 25, then up to 30 and then 35. The movie “12 O’Clock High” still remains one of the best, if not The Best, representation of the European air war. My 2c….

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"Your other right........."

Another perfect example of FICTION V Facts and Reality. Find and read several of the 100’s of books written by Aircrews in WWII. These books go into detail regarding training of All aspects of training and Actual use in combat. Training A/C gunners involved many types of weapons from shotguns to truck mounted turrets. As posted above turrets had “ blocks” built in that stopped gunners from shooting their A/C and others.

I read somewhere the bombers flew in a "box" (I believe that was the term) formation that was designed to maximize mutual protection while minimizing friendly fire damage through precise horizontal and vertical dispersion. It also allowed them to drop their bombs without hitting the friendlies below them. That was the theory anyway. Must have worked at least to a certain degree, because I have seen German diagrams describing it for their fighter pilots to study and be shown how best to counter it.

For those interested in the European air war (USAAF involvement), recommend these books in the photo. I’m too lazy to type each books info. 😀

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"Your other right........."

Black Thursday is sobering reading. IIRC, 8th Air Force lost 600 men in one day. Probably not counting those casualties that made it back to base (been decades). I'm not sure if that's the book with pictures of some B17s that made it back despite horrendous damage.

Sort of related topic:
My father served on destroyers and Destroyer escorts during World War Two. Machinists mate. One of his first responsibilities was to fit all AA guns with cams and travel stops to prevent gunners from shooting up their own ship due to target fixation.

I've read all of those, some going all the way back to high school. There is a copy of "Black Thursday" on my dresser right now.

Another I read in elementary school was "Great American Fighter Pilots of World War II." Haven't seen a copy of that one since.

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John 3:16 .

What TV channel is this series shown ?

Looks like Apple or a no go.
Seems like no matter many streamers you pay for, the show you want to watch is on another one!

Masters of the Air is an Apple Original series that can only be streamed through Apple TV+. A monthly subscription to will cost as little as $9.99/month (the new price from the previous $6.99/month rate).

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I recommend "Masters of the Air" a thick softcover book by Donald Miller, I think (?). I picked it up at Costco back in the spring. It covers all aspects of the strategic bombing campaign against Germany in WWII. I would like to see the series, but I am not ready to subscribe to AppleTV.

I think the Luftwaffe recognized the that B-17 most vulnerable point was the nose, and liked to attack head-on. This eventually led to the "chin" turret on B-17G (?). I also think that there were more losses due to flak than enemy fighters (?).

On a speaking tour RAF hero Guy Gibson was asked how many times he had been over Germany. He replied:
"175 times"
The Combat Box was 8 planes, 3 across front and back, 3 on each side.

Yeah, that one I hadn’t seen either. But I do have these (photo again). Pretty interesting……

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"Your other right........."

If you can find “Fall of Fortress” , very sobering first hand account. There are 100’s of books covering USAAF and would post those I have but all packed up. Years ago when our group displayed our collections at air shows we met and talked to 100’s of USAAF Veterans. Wish we had taped the talks.D6F67352-9B70-496A-A09A-725954BA670C.jpg

My Grand father was in 497th BOMB GROUP B-29s under Gen Curtis LeMay on Saipan. He said that the big raids on major cities would have 100 B-29s.
They would routinely lose 10% of aircraft or 100-110 men per day.

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V/r,
Markham

Another good show is the Bloody 100th Bomb Group. This group was the first to do daylight raids and suffered the heaviest causalities, thus the name.

The 'Bloody 100th' Bomb Group


Another interesting fact is.."the Eighth suffered about half of the U.S. Army Air Force's casualties (47,483 out of 115,332), including more than 26,000 dead. The Eighth's brave men earned 17 Medals of Honor, 220 Distinguished Service Crosses, and 442,000 Air Medals".

Also.."By the end of the war, the Eighth Air Force would have more fatal casualties—26,000—than the entire United States Marine Corps. Seventy-seven percent of the Americans who flew against the Reich before D-Day would wind up as casualties."

My uncle was with the 782 Field artillery D-Day plus 1. To the day he died he donated to the the 8th Air Force museum as thank you to all they did to destroy the nazi's war machine before they had to invade Normandy.

100 aircraft is not a big raid . There were some missions where the U.S. and British put up 1000 aircraft . That's hard to imagine .

“Masters of the Air” focuses on the 100th Bomb Group, considered the hard luck outfit of the 8th Air Force. The 100th weren’t the first operational group in the 8th, that honor goes to the 97th Bomb Group which flew the first 8th Air Force daylight raid in August 1942. The 100th flew their first combat mission in June 1943. There is a really good book by the 100th’s Group Navigator, Harry Crosby, titled “A Wing and a Prayer”. Crosby is one of the aviators portrayed in “Masters of the Air”.

One of my flight instructors was an 8th Air Force B-17 pilot who completed 25 missions, then went on to fly 35 missions as a B-29 pilot with the 20th Air Force from Tinian. He was the calmest pilot I’ve ever met, nothing disturbed him. When I mentioned to him that nothing seemed to alarm him he told me nothing I could do with a Cessna could match what he experienced from ‘42 to ‘45.

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Wheel guns are real guns.

There is an 8th Air Force museum in South Carolina. I forget exactly where, I'm sure someone can tell us. I've never visited it but noticed a sign on the side of I-95 as I passed through. It's on my list of "things to do" if I ever get down that way again.

Ok. I looked it up. It's the "Mighty 8th Museum" and it's located in Pooler, Ga., not South Carolina. Now that I think of it, I believe you can see it from I-95.

National Mighty Eighth Museum

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John 3:16 .

On a Wing and a Prayer by Harry Crosby is a good book about the 100th Bomb Group. He was eventually the group navigator.
I have read many books about WWII aviation and one soon discover that first person accounts are very interesting but are rightfully one persons observations and maybe not completely accurate descriptions of the big picture. I do find the first person accounts the most interesting. You can somewhat relive the experiences of these young men.
One very notable thing about these men was their youth. Men of 25 years of age referred to as Pappy often. Most were probably 17-21 years old.
Just imagine being barely out of high school flying in an aluminum cylinder at 25,000 feet it is 50 below zero and skilled fighter pilots and flak gunners are doing their best to kill you not to mention all the hazards of flying in 1943 over Europe. Amazing the grit these men had.

Along the same lines, I discovered these young women on U-tube not too long ago and have certainly enjoyed them. Winners of "Britan's Got Talent" at some point.

The D-Day Dolls. "Coming in on a wing and a prayer."

https://youtu.be/O8zP2fPTA_o?si=axI4E_hUXzXnBPSL

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John 3:16 .

8th Air Force Museum is in Savannah ,Georgia on I-95. Discount admission for Veterans and I’m going back again tomorrow or Sunday. Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby was supposedly the first B-17 to complete 30 missions but it was not . Met the crew at Dover AFB back in 80’s when got invited to display some of my collection. Met and talked to all of the crew and got their autographs in the Readers Digest about them.714B3506-4733-422C-811D-62F3088FAA67.jpeg

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Starting in late 1944 the Nazis encourage civilians to lynch Allied aircrews who bailed out over Germany, denouncing them as "air pirates", "war criminals (!)". Goebbels warned against making that a formally announced policy but....
The belly gun turret had to have been the worst position, you were locked in for hours at a time, looked down, the earth 25,000 feet below you. heaven help you if the landing gear failed...

Many years ago my Dad's Bomb Group ( 457th ) had a reunion in Savannah and we went to the museum . It was great . I've heard it's gotten even better .

The Ball Turret Gunner was not in the Turret while landing .

It has been many years since I talked to my "Uncle" who was a tail gunner on a B-17, but a few memories I can recall somewhat and paraphrase:

-They were amazed by the amount of flak they could take and still fly back to England... Many instances where they would be looking at the English countryside out of large holes and hoping they would make it.

-For a while, when flying back to England the Germans surprised them because they would 'blend in' at the rear on the return flight...picking them off. IIRC, they had a procedure later on that they would be met with fighters upon return.

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Rather be outdoors

A now-deceased church member was a ball turret gunner on a B-17 in 1944-1945. Luckily, he wasn't ever shot down. Years ago he told me that the most scared he was, was when they would be attacked by ME-262s., because he couldn't get his turret to track fast enough for a good shot.

As is normal, the book is better than the series.

Yes, the book is a good one. I was a little disappointed in the series, but it was worth watching.

...until after he died that my next-door neighbor had been a tail gunner with Purple Hearts. I'm such that if I know that someone is a war vet, I'm more than happy to listen to their story. It never even came up in a conversation with him, so I suppose he was one of those that didn't care to be reminded at all about those years.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

My father was a B-17 pilot and never really talked about it much. Taking hits from our own door gunners happened rarely. Our M-60 pintal mounts had stops on them as well to help prevent shooting your own ship. The forward stop allowed the gunners to put rounds right past your ear up in the cockpit. The vertical stop supposedly kept the gunner from hitting our own rotor blades but in a hard bank a fixated gunner could, and occasionally did put a couple holes in the blade. Pretty rare occurrence, because those guy were GOOD.

Dad in training prior to deployment. 2nd from right
Pic I took from the left seat. Note the feed ramp on the 60. C-rat can
The 187th AHC (Crusaders) landing in an LZ. Tight formation. What could go wrong?

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Another good book, and interesting story, is “A Higher Call” by Adam Makos. A true story of a German Me109 pilot who escorted a severely damaged B17 back to the channel. There is a great painting about it as well. A good read.

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I read a report that, statically, the ball gunner was one of the safer positions, injury wise. The bombardier had the highest injury rate due to the head-on attacks the Germans preferred.

A chilling poem from that time.

The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner
BY RANDALL JARRELL

From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.

Randall Jarrell, "The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner" from The Complete Poems. Copyright © 1980 by Randall Jarrell. Reprinted by permission of Farrar, Straus and Giroux.

Jarrell served in the Army Air Forces during the war.