OK - another screwdriver thread, but NOT a "gun screwdriver" thread!

Some or many do not know the difference between two similar screwdriver styles. The first being Phillips screwdriver bits and screws that we are all familiar with here in the USA. OK - but in Japan, they do not use Phillips screws, they use JIS screws. JIS stands for Japanese Industry Standard and is NOT the same! They are only slightly different, but different enough that if a Phillips screwdriver is used on a JIS screw, it will strip out very quickly. Maybe that is why you have been stripping out screw heads on products made in Japan and have not realized it. Any Japanese screws used in cars, motorcycles, electronics, equipment, tools etc. are the JIS style, not Phillips.

There is a Company called Vessel that makes and sells JIS screwdrivers. We do not need to go out and buy entire sets of them as the straight bladed screwdrivers are no different than ours. All most of us really need is one Vessel screwdriver which is about the size of our #2 Phillips. Maybe some of us need 1 smaller and 1 larger size as well for electronics, automotive or motorcycle work, but the vast majority of us can usually get by with just the one. They are under $10 bucks on Amazon and should be in everybody's tool box that is a DIYer.

Vessel makes these screwdrivers in many sizes,, impact versions and handle types. You can buy them in sets or like I said, one at a time. The really good news is that the JIS style will also work perfectly fine in Phillips type screws. Just not the other way around. I know JIS screws are exclusively used in Japan but I am unsure if they also use them in China, Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan and other Countries now making the lion's share of the products we buy. Still for under $10 is makes sense to get one of these Vessel screwdrivers to have on hand. After all, these imported JIS screws are not going away anytime soon! Personally, it bugs the hell out of me to have a brand new shinny product and strip out the screw heads when they have to be removed or retightened.

You can go on Youtube and type in "JIS vs Phillips" and learn to tell the difference between them. Again, Vessel is the Japanese manufacturer and they are readily available in the USA and on Amazon. Obviously I have no affiliation with them (so no skin in the game) but being the tool nut that I am, I'm into this stuff and wanted to pass it along.

Interesting to read. Now I know why my drill bit set is stripping my newly bought screws from Home Depot. I assumed my drill was set too strong or the screw metal was cheap. I thank you for the heads up and will adjust!!

One of the original purposes of the Phillips head design was to limit torque as the driver would slip out of the screw head once an excessive torque level was reached. That prevented overtightening of fasteners and snapping off screw heads. I knew the Japanese drivers were different from Phillips but never gave it much thought. Personally, I prefer Torx heads.

So, they are made in Japan and not XIjinpingland?

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I’m your Boogie Man, uh huh.

I am not quite sure of that. I know the real JIS screws have a small dot on them to identify them as JIS. Knowing the Chinese and their ethics and how cheap they can knock stuff off - who knows!?

Think I’ll try one or two and look for that mark. Thanks.

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I’m your Boogie Man, uh huh.

The real way not to strip out threads, over tighten and over torque is to learn "the proper feel". Letting a tool do that for you by slipping it's bit to slot fitment is not a good method to rely on - but yes you are correct in your post. So many have no idea just how tight is tight enough and what too tight or too lose "feels" like. It's a good skill to acquire.

On almost every item I have ever worked on I can tell if it was opened up prior to me seeing it - just by looking at the fasteners. There is only a small percentage of the time that a screw is not buggered up to some extent. When it's on a nice high quality item it bothers me even more.

Interesting. Thanks for the info

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Pete
I ain't no fortunate son

I've seen those screws but never gave them a thought. I just figured someone invented a new tool just to sell his newly invented drivers.
Roof top HVAC units are the worst after some guys think it's funny to use a cordless drill to over tighten the hex head screws for the panels, stripping out the hole. I don't think there's a tool made to prevent hacks from being hacks (Except a 3# hammer strategically dropped...)

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Waiting For The Sun.

Learn something new today. Thanks!

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Death? Smile back...

There are a number of similar cross-head screw styles, along with the myriad of other heads. Fortunately most of us never have to deal with them!

When a Phillips Is Not a Phillips!





There are some excellent JIS drivers available on Amazon, made by Vessel in Japan. I got a set for my neighbour's 16 y.o. son, who is into various engines, mostly Honda, for ATVs etc.

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"I drank WHAT?" (Socrates)

Thirty plus years in Japan and I did not know that! (No wonder I stripped all those screw heads!)

That is correctamundo.

Or, you can do something we all have done: Wedge in whatever flat-head screwdriver you can find at the moment and hope for the best.

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What, me worry?

Here's a tool that I find useful for the occasional weirdly shaped screwhead. (E.g., for tightening handles on some of our cooking pots and pans.)



Think I got the screwdriver bits off Amazon pretty cheap.

I have an inexpensive miniature set, too, that comes in handy for electronics and such.

This is all she needs.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

BTW, re the JIS screwdrivers on Amazon - you can also get interchangeable bits that look like they will fit our 1/4" hex handles, but although the diameter is OK, the length of the very end - beyond groove where the ball bearing secures the bit - is longer and needs to be cut down a little. I don't have an unmodified bit that clearly shows it, but the JIS bit at the top of the pic has been shortened enough to fit my handle.




Ononmea- I have one of those multi-bit sets, too and they are really handy when you encounter the various weird "security head" screws. For everything else, there's Mcmaster Carr.

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"I drank WHAT?" (Socrates)

Thank you for bringing attention to
the JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard).
screw. I had no idea.

JIS Phillips screw = not the same as
U.S. Phillips, similar but will strip head.

Vessel Tools USA = JIS screwdrivers.

JIS screwdrivers works in U.S. Phillips type
screws. Just NOT the other way around.

Got it in my notes. Thanks again!

I'm keepin' the original Phillips head screws on my Custer era Colt SAA.

Having worked for a large Japanese company knew all about JIS. BTW they call them “ plus” or “ minus”.
More interesting screw, tooling ect is the DIN system used in Germany and Austria.

What, no love for the Whitworth pattern?

When I was researching them a year or so ago before I bought the set for my neighbour's son, I recall reading that nowadays not all JIS screws have that dot. Can't recall where I read that, though, or I'd link it here.

BTW, the screwdriver set I got for the neighbour's son weren't Vessel but Sunflag. Good quality and made in Japan.

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"I drank WHAT?" (Socrates)

Aaaaarrrrgggghhhh!

The Whitworth thread was the world's first national screw thread standard, devised and specified by Joseph Whitworth in 1841. Whitworth's new standard specified a 55° thread angle and a thread depth of 0.640327p and a radius of 0.137329p, where p is the pitch. The Whitworth thread system was later to be adopted as a British Standard to become British Standard Whitworth.

With the adoption of BSW by British railway lines, many of which had previously used their own standard both for threads and for bolt head and nut profiles, and improving manufacturing techniques, it came to dominate British manufacturing.

He designed good rifles, too. It is thought that it was a Whitworth rifle fired by a Confederate sharpshooter that killed Major General John Sedgwick at the battle of Spotsylvania at a range of about 1000 yards.

Then there's BA (British Association) screws. I had to get one a couple of years ago for (I think) a rear sight on a Martini rifle.

As someone quipped years ago, "Standards are wonderful. That's why we have so many of them"

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"I drank WHAT?" (Socrates)

I work for a Japanese company and have had two sizes of JIS drivers for a long time and it makes a big difference.

Screws probably came from China and VERY soft........Check the box.....LOW rpm is the only way to use those.

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S&W Accumulator

Where is the dot located?

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S&W Accumulator

From Chapman Mfg. website:

...the vast majority of them have a tiny dot stamped into them. However, customers have wrote in and said that not every JIS screw has the stamped dot...

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"I drank WHAT?" (Socrates)

I have a similar but somewhat more extensive set, must have at least 50 different types and sizes of hex bits. Have never looked at them closely enough to see if any are of the Japanese JIS style. Bought the set at a gun show at least 25 years back. I don’t remember seeing a screw head with a dot, probably because I have never looked for a dot.

I checked. My set has over 100 bits. Several may be the JIS style, at least they look different. I can’t really say.

From the posts above, two depictions of JIS screw heads:



There seems to be some confusion... Post 10 vs Post 27.

I recently told my oldest grand daughter to bring me a flat head screw driver and she brought me a butter knife. It worked.

If you ever have a sudden desire to remove the screws from a public toilet door you're gonna need something special.

A Dremel tool works well for that. I did that job once. Just cut a slot across the screw head with a thick abrasive cutoff disc.

I think those are bi-pin / snake eyes / spanner tamper-proof Also used on elevator operation panels (?)

Next-to-last item in the next-to-last row below.

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"I drank WHAT?" (Socrates)

Just went and looked at my set of JIS screwdrivers. I never noticed the brand before, but they are VESSEL. Called Impacta. They twist like an impact driver if you hit them with a hammer. Only works CCW or loosey.

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Not in jail.

I have a DJI drone, and the screws that hold the props on are micro size. There's a DJI forum and everyone complains about stripping the screws with the supplied tiny screw driver. I bought a micro driver set that has JIS drivers in it. They work like a charm.

This little set has come in handy for a lot of things besides drones too.

Reed & Prince anyone?

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NRA RSO

aka Frearson. From Screw Head Types and their Uses:

The Frearson, which is also known as the Reed and Prince Screw head type, is somewhat similar to Phillips, but the only difference is that it features a pointed 75° V shape.

It is superior to Phillips drive in one way, as its bit can fit all screw sizes. It is mostly found in marine hardware and needs a specialized screw driver under the same name. Its tool recess features sharp cross, thereby enabling higher torque to be applied, unlike the rounded Phillips head type.

And from yet another website:

The Frearson screw drive, also known as a Reed & Prince (R&P) may look similar to a Phillips, but the shape is different in a beneficial way to the wood boat builder. The Frearson has a sharper tip and large V-shaped angle. The recess in the fitting is a perfectly formed, sharp cross and that allows for a higher amount of torque to be applied before stripping out. They're common in the marine industry, and boat builders wanting to apply larger amounts of torque on screws in hardwood timbers tend to prefer using them with power tools. Frearsons have a much greater amount of resistance to "camming out" or stripping when torque is applied.

The drive dates all the way back to 1873 when it was invented by British engineer, John Frearson and it's still a favorite of boat builders today. Many classic boats, including Chris Crafts and Gar Wood for example are fastened with Frearson wood screws. Frearson drive are also commonly referred to as Reed & Prince drives, or R&P, as they were well known during their time being manufactured by Reed & Prince Manufacturing Company of Worcester (prounced wooster of course!), Massachusetts.

Who opened this can of worms anyway? Well, since we're part way down the rabbit hole, here's yet another article on the subject, from the website Tedium:

We Screwed Up

Standardization has long ruled the world of screws. Despite that, screw standards differ between North America and the rest of the world. Here's why.

They say about Reed & Prince/Frearson:

“It is well known to persons who use screws that if the nicks are narrow and shallow it is difficult to drive the screw without the screw-driver slipping out of the nicks, and if the nicks are wide and deep to afford a good gripe, the head of the screw is weakened, and the screw-driver is liable to slip out sidewise and deface the finished surface of the work, and if the screw-driver is the same width as or wider than the head of the screw, the countersink work is liable to be defaced, and the angles of the screw-driver are often broken.”

— Engineer John Frearson, in his patent application for a screw drive head that used a cross style very similar to the more commonly known Phillips head screwdriver. The Phillips screw, however, has a slight curvature in the center, which makes it so that when the screw is in all the way, the screwdriver would inevitably fall out (or if you’re me, you would continue twisting anyway until you’ve fully stripped the metal and made the screw useless). Frearson screws, a 20th-century innovation based on John Frearson’s 19th-century work, are popular with boating types.

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"I drank WHAT?" (Socrates)

This thread took a long time to get to Reed & Prince. Saved me having to bring it up.

Both my parents worked at Reed & Prince so I grew up hearing the benefits of them; a common driver that would work on any size of their screws.

They sold railcars full of the screws to the folks building submarines down in Connecticut during WWII. I had some boxes of bronze R&P screws that I used when re-fastening to bottom of my '47 Century 19' Sea Maid.

I had some vintage R&P drivers for a long time, but have since misplaced (lost) them.

Well, I'm glad we got there. Interesting connection!

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"I drank WHAT?" (Socrates)

Man! This is the best Thread I’ve read
in a long time. Thank you for all that
have contributed.

I actually discovered 30 years ago that the larger size Reed and Prince works great in the Gas Plug on an M1 Garand without slipping. I have used it many times.

There are so so many different drover bits, styles and screwdrivers I have two dedicated drawers in my tool box just for them. In the case of "specialty drivers", I usually buy the bits themselves rather than the entire screwdriver so they are easier to store and keep organized.

Even with all the bits I have, I do find myself having to actually make or regrind a bit for a specific purpose once in a while because just when I think I've got them all, they come up with a new one that I am missing!

I have made at least a half dozen bits for guns. There are actually some screws on firearms that are not standard in even the large Master kit from Brownell's! Once in a while even if the kit does contain what hey say is the right bit, it doesn't fit quite right and the last thing I want to do is bung up a screw on a beautiful expensive firearm. Gunmakers have varied their screw slots over the years - even S&W has.

For those who have built IKEA furniture, they use "Pozi-drive "screws. Posi-drive screw drivers make a world of difference in assembling their furniture. I do not know if Pozi-drive is another name for one of the type mentioned above, maybe a JIS

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Kind regards, Heinz

LOL. From the Tedium article ("We screwed up") I linked above:

...And as we know, Apple has never been one to follow standards. They invented a new screw just to piss people off. ..

The case of my first Mac (a used SE in 1989!) was held together with then-rare Torx screws, recessed just far enough that when I got a Torx screwdriver, I had to cut/grind the handle back to get it in far enough!

Nope. Pozi-drive is its own thing. Basically a Phillips with an extra, smaller set of cross points.

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"I drank WHAT?" (Socrates)

Abington King Dick

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Not in jail.