Sawed Off Shotgun Legal Question

Wyatt Burp · Jun 18, 2009

On Guns International a while back a guy was selling a cut down 1880's hammer double barrel 12 gauge with a 13" barrel. I wrote him and said it was the coolest gun but is illegal. He said it was OK 'cause it was so old. I doubt it. What do you think? Another thing. My friend said you could put a permanent choke on a sawed off shotgun (16" or so, I guess) to extend it to a legal 18". That doesn't apply to the gun mentioned above but do you think he was correct?

robertrwalsh · Jun 18, 2009

The federal minimum is 18" barrel, 26 1/2 " overall I believe. (Pretty sure.) Most states reflect the federal law. It is barely possible he is in legal posession IF it was grandfathered prior to the NFA and if his paperwork is in order. Otherwise he has a problem. I am not sure I have ever seen or heard of a choke that would extend 5" past the end of the barrel, but as long as it was welded on it would be legal. Trouble is, the act of cutting it down made it illegal without the paperwork if it was done after the NFA, also if it was done before the NFA and paperwork wasn't done after. I don't think there is an exemption for curio & relic, but I COULD be wrong. I wouldn't want to bet a trip to jail on it.

USAF385 · Jun 18, 2009

I agree with robertrwalsh... I'd stay away from this number.

bshepherd · Jun 18, 2009

Some firearms are specifically exempted from the NFA and are on the C&R list. ATF has a long list. I think some are listed by type and some by serial number. There is also the pre-1899 antique exemption. I do no remember how it works with potential NFA items. Further research is definitely in order before unequivocally calling this gun illegal.

Wyatt Burp · Jun 18, 2009

USAF385 said:
I agree with robertrwalsh... I'd stay away from this number.

Personally, I wouldn't get near that old double with a 13" barrel. The stock was cut down, too with just enough room for your hand. If it were legal i'd build a holster for it like James Caan in El Dorado or Nick Adams in Johnny Yuma. One day that add in Guns International was gone, so I don't know if that gun was sold or what.

Timb1 · Jun 18, 2009

Bshepherd, you are correct. Winchester made some trapper carbines, model 92s and 94s, that have barrels under 16 inches that are legal, but I would check with the BATF before making any calls on some of these old firearms.

Tim.

Andy Griffith · Jun 18, 2009

The only shotgun that is currently made that has barrels less that 18 1/2" and a pistol grip that does not have to be registered as an NFA is the Pedersoli Howdah Pistol. It's a 20ga SxS...of course, it doesn't have to be registered because it is percussion.

If you have breech loading double shorter than the currently legal limit, even if it was made in the 1860's and happens to be pinfire...

I'd suggest brushing up on the NFA of 1934, and laws since that might cover it.

No matter what, there is little room for a mistake, which would cost much more than what the cost of the firearm would have cost with the proper licensing.

Alpo · Jun 18, 2009

NFA applies to firearms. But a gun is NOT a firearm, by Federal definition, if:
it was made in 1898 or before, or
it is a copy of gun made in 1898 or earlier that does not use fixed ammunition, or
it is a copy of a gun made in 1899 or earlier that uses fixed ammunition that is not readily available in the United States.

If that shotgun was made in the 1880s, it is not a gun, so Federal laws about what can and cannot be done to a gun don't apply.

Some states don't care about the Federal rules. They have their own rules, which may make that gun illegal. You would need to check under your state's rules.

The gun that Andy posted falls under the same Federal rules. It is NOT a gun because it does not use fixed ammuntion.

Also, the barrel length requirement is 18 inches, not 18 1/2, and the overall length requirement is 26 inches, not 26 1/2.

GatorFarmer · Jun 18, 2009

+1 to Alpo's concise summary.

One sometimes sees cut down Trapdoor Springfields that were made into short rifles since the pre Jan 1899 examples don't fall under Federal regulations. There was one such listed on Auction Arms not too long back that was otherwise in great condition.

State laws on what is or isn't a sawed shotgun can get very tricky. For example in California, even a .410 firing handgun like the Bond Arms Derringer or Taurus Judge is apparently verboten. State law prison terms can be just as long as Federal, so it is important to know the fine print. Some states have exemptions for antique short shotguns kept only for display. If I remember right VA has some fine print of that nature.

2152hq · Jun 18, 2009

The definitions under the NFA section are somewhat different that those used under the more often generally quoted GCA68.
Under the NFA section, among other definintions of a 'Firearm' .....are that of a 'Shotgun' being a smoothbore firearm haveing a barrel or barrels LESS than 18" overall. Also in the same definition of a 'Firearm" under the NFA section is that of a 'Shotgun' is a weapon having an overall length LESS than 26".

A cartridge fireing 'Antique Firearm' under NFA is slightly different than under GCA68 in that a cartridge firearm must have been mfg pre 1899... AND must be chambered for a round not currently manufactured in the USA,,and the ammo not currently available in normal trade channels.
Under GCA, an antique cartridge firearm must mearly be pre 1899 mfg.

Neither an 1880's mfg 13" barreled 12ga cartridge shotgun,, nor a 45-70 Trapdoor Springfield rifle with a barrel less than 16" in length qualify as being exempt from registration under NFA AFAIK. The fact of having the short barrels and their caliber & gauge places them in the NFA catagory regardless of the mfg date/age.
Unaltered, they would be both Antiques under GCA (non NFA) and would transfer w/o any Fed paperwork required.

Sawed Off Shotgun Legal Question

Wyatt Burp

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robertrwalsh

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USAF385

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bshepherd

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Wyatt Burp

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Timb1

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Andy Griffith

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Alpo

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GatorFarmer

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2152hq

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