sigma pigtail spring purpose?
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Unit505
Member
My pigtail spring and outer spring are taped to the inside of the factory pistol case as back up. So far, I don't see either one going back in unless I decide to sell.
That is exactly where mine reside too. And I don't ever see myself selling my Sigma, I like it too much and resale would probably be ...not much.
setxn
Member
I took the brakes off my truck so it can go faster! Come on guys ,let the gun do what it was designed to do! Smooth it up,wear it in,shoot it,dry fire it ,get used to it or what ever.I doubt any ball point pen spring should be trusted in anything but a ball point pen.If the Sigma is not up to par with your requirements for a autoloader get something that is.I'm not familiar with any database that list mishaps from jacking with the design of a gun but I'll bet Sigma will be the one.
Old drag racing trick: remove disc brakes...
... and replace them with drum brakes w/manual adjusters, less drag = better for drag racing.
As I posted in my trigger work thread, in stock form with all the built in part's roughness, I'd agree all that spring pressure might just be necessary. But with smoothed parts, maybe not. Manufacturers will sometimes add parts to increase reliability with the compromises of mass production.
I've shot hundreds of rounds after the mods, no issues w/US made ammo. Replacing the striker spring with a lighter one does compromise reliability, maker of the lighter spring warns of it right off, so that I will not do.
I like the scientific method. Start with a hypothesis, test it thru experimentation. That's what I, and others, are doing. Of course, my results will only be valid with my Sigma.
I'll keep shooting my modded Sigma and I ever have any issues, I'll update my trigger thread as promised.
roaddog28
Member
I agree setxn with your statement. Get used too your Sigma as it came from S&W. The pistol was design to have a longer heavier pull than other semi-autos. I am sure this was done for safety reasons. I have a SW40VE that is stock. I have no problem shooting the gun with the stock trigger. The pull is no heavier than my revolvers shooting in double action. Remember this is a double action only pistol. The trigger is different than a Glock. I feel if a person can't get used to a double action only pistol then that person should of bought a different action gun.
Regards,
roaddog28
the pigtail spring sole purpose is to make the trigger pull heavier. that will spring will actually leave a heavy wear groove in the plastic sear assembly over time.
you can check this by removing the sear housing and visually inspecting the plastic housing the pigtail makes contact with.
so if you have not removed this piece yet..i would check the sear housing for wear. what you find might make you want to remove this spring not just to ease up the trigger pull, but for the longevity of the firearm.
i'm sure i will get some combative responses...but for anyone who has inspected there plastic sear housing after leaving that pigtail spring in after several thousand rounds can attest to a groove where this part touches the plastic thereby making it have less tension and becoming less effective over time.
you can check this by removing the sear housing and visually inspecting the plastic housing the pigtail makes contact with.
so if you have not removed this piece yet..i would check the sear housing for wear. what you find might make you want to remove this spring not just to ease up the trigger pull, but for the longevity of the firearm.
i'm sure i will get some combative responses...but for anyone who has inspected there plastic sear housing after leaving that pigtail spring in after several thousand rounds can attest to a groove where this part touches the plastic thereby making it have less tension and becoming less effective over time.
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Rick-F
Member
If you read the DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE PREFERRED EMBODIMENT contained in United States Patent US5386659,
you will note that the sear spring (a torsion sring) is there, along with a coil spring, ". . . to reposition the sear to its foward "ready" position for the next firing cycle"
While the sear spring does indeed contribute to trigger pull, its purpose is to assist in the resetting of the sear by urging the pivot arm forward as it opposes the direction of the trigger pull.
i will politely disagree! My information tells me there are three different springs that reset the trigger.
These springs are; sear coil spring, sear coil inner spring, and the trigger return spring.
The pigtail spring was added by Smith and Wesson as an afterthought in the design process for the PRIMARY purpose of making the trigger pull heavier.
while your checking your sear housing for wear
examine how that system works. that pigtail spring seems like she doesnt belong and was an afterthought, perhaps something to do with...cough..cough.
Hey that reminds me...When you send your sigma to smith and wesson for complaints about trigger pull, what do they physically alter??? Everyone luvs the sigma after getting the "trigger job" done from s&w and its just as reliable as before. So what is it they do exactly? this is not a random thought. i
but Rick- if your going technical with this one, I think you got me. Sole is technically incorrect, but "primary" works.
These springs are; sear coil spring, sear coil inner spring, and the trigger return spring.
The pigtail spring was added by Smith and Wesson as an afterthought in the design process for the PRIMARY purpose of making the trigger pull heavier.
while your checking your sear housing for wear
examine how that system works. that pigtail spring seems like she doesnt belong and was an afterthought, perhaps something to do with...cough..cough.Hey that reminds me...When you send your sigma to smith and wesson for complaints about trigger pull, what do they physically alter??? Everyone luvs the sigma after getting the "trigger job" done from s&w and its just as reliable as before. So what is it they do exactly? this is not a random thought. i
but Rick- if your going technical with this one, I think you got me. Sole is technically incorrect, but "primary" works.
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You are so right. After the first 100 rounds in my Sigma it was very clear the gritty worthless trigger had to go! This lead me to pulling the sear housing out. First thing noticed was the idiot designed pigtail spring had already started wearing into the housing. It became very clear to me this was a very bad idea if not in principle, defiantly in application. A better solution would have been a leaf spring set between the arm and sear housing. Heck I can think of several ways to address the issue up to and including changing the cam face angle or compounding it. Or just how about machining the parts right instead of the China-Market way.
The overall design of the sear housing and internals is good! Lets face it. One would have to work overtime to screw up a basic sliding cam design. Where it all went bad was at the bean counters desk and in the tool room and production floor. The tool room does not clean up / rework the dies used for producing the arm near enough. Thus you get the really bad finish on the edges of the arm. This dirty work was so bad on my pistol that it was eating up the sides of the sear cam. And the bean counter is pushing the production group to hard thus making those poor folks push the CNC machines. <<<< Thats were the grit in the trigger comes to life. To fast of a feed speed versus the condition of the cutting tool affecting the pin slot and cam face.
So the worthless pigtail spring was born and shows in all the patent info. Believe me they already had all the basic production and machine blasphemy worked out when the patent lawyers filed.
To those that say there trigger is smooth and good from the box,,, GREAT!
To those that claim it gets better with use. And no work has been done. It's not wearing in. It's wearing out on yeah. You will be using the warranty that came with your pistol.
To those of us that have removed the idiot pigtail and cleaned up our triggers as S&W should have done to start with concerning better machining practices. NOT polishing and such that would not be needed if it was done right to start with. Good Luck!
i have been waiting for someone to chime in about the " sear housing wear issue" since not too much about that has ever been discussed here before even though myself and Smith and Wesson knows this is an issue. It's prob bc most people on this forum immediately remove the pigtail spring.
Blastfact- thanks for the follow up.
our point is well made but Rick still had a point about that patent.
Blastfact- thanks for the follow up.
our point is well made but Rick still had a point about that patent.
.357 mag
Member
You are so right. After the first 100 rounds in my Sigma it was very clear the gritty worthless trigger had to go! This lead me to pulling the sear housing out. First thing noticed was the idiot designed pigtail spring had already started wearing into the housing. It became very clear to me this was a very bad idea if not in principle, defiantly in application. A better solution would have been a leaf spring set between the arm and sear housing. Heck I can think of several ways to address the issue up to and including changing the cam face angle or compounding it. Or just how about machining the parts right instead of the China-Market way.
The overall design of the sear housing and internals is good! Lets face it. One would have to work overtime to screw up a basic sliding cam design. Where it all went bad was at the bean counters desk and in the tool room and production floor. The tool room does not clean up / rework the dies used for producing the arm near enough. Thus you get the really bad finish on the edges of the arm. This dirty work was so bad on my pistol that it was eating up the sides of the sear cam. And the bean counter is pushing the production group to hard thus making those poor folks push the CNC machines. <<<< Thats were the grit in the trigger comes to life. To fast of a feed speed versus the condition of the cutting tool affecting the pin slot and cam face.
So the worthless pigtail spring was born and shows in all the patent info. Believe me they already had all the basic production and machine blasphemy worked out when the patent lawyers filed.
To those that say there trigger is smooth and good from the box,,, GREAT!
To those that claim it gets better with use. And no work has been done. It's not wearing in. It's wearing out on yeah. You will be using the warranty that came with your pistol.
To those of us that have removed the idiot pigtail and cleaned up our triggers as S&W should have done to start with concerning better machining practices. NOT polishing and such that would not be needed if it was done right to start with. Good Luck!
After you posted this, I took mine apart. Looks fine to me. 12,000 rounds and counting.
LuddhaBuddha
Member
I took mine off about 5 years ago and have not had any problems so far.
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I am very glad to hear that. I really am! After 100 rounds mine had already started wearing into the back plate of the sear housing.
Was the spring loaded up and working?
.357 mag
Member
marlin.357
Member
Keep reading this as a concern. Maybe...just maybe... they come from the factory with a notch in the sear housing to locate the end of the spring, since no one has ever reported the absence of one. Just sayin'...
i never fired my sw40ve before taking it apart. Without even shooting the gun i could feel the grittness of the trigger and heavy pull while dry firing.
there was no groove in my plastic sear housing when i initially disasembled the gun to mod the trigger.
after a couple of hundred rounds i said to myself..."i wonder what the sigma would feel like with the pigtail and secondary sear coil not removed. you know, like from the factory.
with the original items put back on the pistol, i let a couple hundred more rounds go not liking the feel at all. so i removed the items again, and returned the sigma to the trigger pull i had altered and grown to love (but left in both coil springs this time).
and what do you know. i newly discovered a nice wear groove from the pigtail/torsion spring, that was not originally there.
when i called my family member that worked for smith and wesson, he remember a previous discussion that we had when i was thinking about buying the ve. he was more than happy to flaunt his S&W employee expertise and respond with "i told you so" referring to the wear groove.
that just my experience. hopefully no one else will experience this issue or my family having the satisfaction out of saying "told you so
but in all seriousness, to me it makes sense. a heavily tensioned coil spring exerting pressure back against a platic base plate, i have a feeling the plastic will be the first to give out out of the two...
there was no groove in my plastic sear housing when i initially disasembled the gun to mod the trigger.
after a couple of hundred rounds i said to myself..."i wonder what the sigma would feel like with the pigtail and secondary sear coil not removed. you know, like from the factory.
with the original items put back on the pistol, i let a couple hundred more rounds go not liking the feel at all. so i removed the items again, and returned the sigma to the trigger pull i had altered and grown to love (but left in both coil springs this time).
and what do you know. i newly discovered a nice wear groove from the pigtail/torsion spring, that was not originally there.
when i called my family member that worked for smith and wesson, he remember a previous discussion that we had when i was thinking about buying the ve. he was more than happy to flaunt his S&W employee expertise and respond with "i told you so" referring to the wear groove.
that just my experience. hopefully no one else will experience this issue or my family having the satisfaction out of saying "told you so
but in all seriousness, to me it makes sense. a heavily tensioned coil spring exerting pressure back against a platic base plate, i have a feeling the plastic will be the first to give out out of the two...
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marlin.357
Member
OK, so maybe it is a "wear groove". What else does the family member who works for S&W say about the pigtail spring and the Sigma in general?
